two men in one bed?

[jayne]

"One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument"

.....That's it!!

[Proverbs 3:5-7]

Even if (for argument's sake), let's say those two men Jesus describes are gay ...

Describing a reality doesn't mean approving of the behavior or condoning it.

They could have just been two servants sharing a bed. Not uncommon. Nothing is implied here (except in your own head).

nothing about those 2 men was implying they were gay (except in the minds of those who want it to be that way)...
I'd recently encountered a lesbian who'd quoted "love thy neighbor as thyself" to imply that it justified her love for her same sex partner as if that Scripture had to be referring to eros (romantic/sexual love)

[Proverbs 3:5-7]

John 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me

God makes marriage man/woman from the beginning. As we follow the OT into the NT the entire line is man/woman marriages. God never shows us a same sex union anywhere in his blessed line or in any relationship he shows us through the word. Yet you want to take one little scripture that can have a multitude of translations, grab the version that says two men, and imply that to proof of same sex approval.

People are mincing words to desperately find their own desire within the word. Looking for the loophole that supports the behavior that is blatantly opposed by the same scriptures.

Do you really believe you can stand before the throne one day and say this to him?

indeed such deceitful manipulation of the Scriptures should be rebuked & corrected...
for the sake of anyone who might be led astray by their profound misunderstanding...

But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. {2 Corinthians 4:2 NKJV}

[moonglow]

"men" isn't in the original. It is simply "duo" or two. In fact when you parse the verse you find that one of the words translated "one" (mias)was feminine and the other(heis) masculine.The verse actually speaks of two of the opposite sex. Men was added because of the cultural context that the KJV bible translators were subject to. It was common practice in those days for rooming houses and lodging places to place two men in a room with a single bed when it was crowded. Ever see "Moby Dick"? The guy that found himself in the bed with a savage from the jungle was facing a common experience that travelers and lodgers had in those days. Jesus was in no way condoning homosexuality.

Even in the originally Willy Wonka movie the whole family shared a bed. All the elderly people were in one bed obviously not having an orgy... Understanding the culture at the time scripture was written helps to explain alot! Why we jump to the conclusion anyone in bed is having sex, shows the sickness in the world's thinking. Plus it would be a MAJOR bible contradiction to say this was two homosexuals and not address that at all....yet condemn the act everywhere else in the bible. And it would really add confusion in saying one was saved but the other wasn't...

Many in other parts of the world, especially in third world countries, sleep in one bed..or at least together. 80% of the worlds population have no beds to speak of. Its very common for children to sleep with their parents but here in the USA, its considered 'wrong' to do so. Culture has everything to do with it.

The New English Translation is suppose to be closer to the word for word translation of the orginal language ..and this is how that text was translated:

Luke 17:34

New English Translation (NET)

34 I tell you, in that night there will be two people in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.

PS..I realize the OP is banned from the board, but clearly this question will come up elsewhere. They are focusing on the wrong thing of course! The focus should be why one is taken! What's going on? Not getting caught up in these other things. I would be much more concerned about the taken one and the one left behind for sure!

[Proverbs 3:5-7]

Even in the originally Willy Wonka movie the whole family shared a bed. All the elderly people were in one bed obviously not having an orgy... Understanding the culture at the time scripture was written helps to explain alot! Why we jump to the conclusion anyone in bed is having sex, shows the sickness in the world's thinking. Plus it would be a MAJOR bible contradiction to say this was two homosexuals and not address that at all....yet condemn the act everywhere else in the bible. And it would really add confusion in saying one was saved but the other wasn't...

Many in other parts of the world, especially in third world countries, sleep in one bed..or at least together. 80% of the worlds population have no beds to speak of. Its very common for children to sleep with their parents but here in the USA, its considered 'wrong' to do so. Culture has everything to do with it.

The New English Translation is suppose to be closer to the word for word translation of the orginal language ..and this is how that text was translated:

Luke 17:34

New English Translation (NET)

34 I tell you, in that night there will be two people in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.

PS..I realize the OP is banned from the board, but clearly this question will come up elsewhere. They are focusing on the wrong thing of course! The focus should be why one is taken! What's going on? Not getting caught up in these other things. I would be much more concerned about the taken one and the one left behind for sure!

no doubt; the OP did focus on the wrong thing by manipulating that Scripture; in isolating that verse & then implying that the 2 in bed were gay men...
since it certainly seemed like a self vindicating effort to justify homosexual sins... perhaps even why the OP had chosen "exiled" as part of their screen name... which could be why they were banned? because of such a reprobate mentality?... I don't know

but (as you've suggested) this issue will come up elsewhere... so perhaps this example wasn't all for naught after all?... as others could learn from the profound misunderstanding of the OP & recognize the benefits of repentance & NOT be among the tragic one's being left behind, you know?...

IF we re-focus (like you've suggested) on that Scripture into the full context of what it really means... (verses 24-37) about Christ's Return & gathering His own to Himself

[RabbiKnife]

But many people do not believe that the passage in question has anything to do with Christ's REturn and gathering His own to Himself, but to the contrary, many believe that the passage is giving instruction to those who were to prepare for the imminent crushing persecution and destruction of Titus and the Roman legions.

So we DO have to be careful about manipulating Scripture, isolating particular verses to "prove" our particular theological pet...

[moonglow]

But many people do not believe that the passage in question has anything to do with Christ's REturn and gathering His own to Himself, but to the contrary, many believe that the passage is giving instruction to those who were to prepare for the imminent crushing persecution and destruction of Titus and the Roman legions.

So we DO have to be careful about manipulating Scripture, isolating particular verses to "prove" our particular theological pet...

Yes which is actually what I believe...that its not about the return of Christ...but about judgment.

From Adam Clarke's bible commentary:

Verse 40. - 41. Then shall two men-two women-one shall be taken, and the other left.
The meaning seems to be, that so general should these calamities be, that no two persons, wheresoever found, or about whatsoever employed, should be both able to effect their escape; and that captivity and the sword should have a complete triumph over this unhappy people. (this is actually from Matthew 24 which is the same thing Luke 21 says)

I was speaking though with the most popular belief on this in mind so as to not get too off topic. But you made my point in that the focus is all wrong on what people should be looking at. I looked at a number of bible commentaries and not one addresses 'two men in bed' but the focus is one is taken and the other left behind.

[Scruffy Kid]

The OP, exiledchristian, now not a member of this board, asked about the fact that "two men were in one bed" in Luke 17:34.

The passage, with some context, goes like this:

Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away:
...............and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The OP read 17:34 suggesting that "two men in one bed" implied a homosexual relationship.
("Men" is not in the Greek text, of course; nor is "men" in 17:36, or "women" in 17:35.)

There is a similar text, in luke 11, where someone in a parable Jesus is telling says he can't come to the door, now
because "the door is shut, and my children are with me in bed."

Luk 11:5 And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight,
..............and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves;
Luk 11:6 For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him?
Luk 11:7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut,
..............and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.
Luk 11:8 I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend,
..............yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.
Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Traveler, in post #7, nails it, gets this exactly right.

In the old days before indoor plumbing and such only the wealthy lived in what we understand today as real houses.

In many cases you had a one roomed shack with a fire place on one side for heating and cooking and the bed on the other. Often a crude table and stools. The toilet was the outhouse at the back some way from the shack consisting of a long drop.

Either you slept on the bed, such as it was, or you slept on the floor, It was not uncommon to have the whole family sleeping in the same bed, Fact is, if you made another bed in these circumstances just where do you intend to put it in such a small place. Keep in mind that the making of a bed back then was quite the undertaking and most consisted of smaller poles just roped together or do you think they just jumped in the family chariot and hitched the horses outside the local walmart while they picked out the latest imported sleep comfort for under two goats trade.

I've been in third world cities, in poor (which there really means average) neighborhoods, where people live, often, with a whole family in a room 8x10 feet, sometimes.
When I've looked at the ruins of ancient cities in Israel -- Capernaum, say -- where the stone foundations of the buildings remain. It's just like the layout of houses in little alleyways in "slum" areas in poor countries now, where people are often crowded into tiny rooms, with only one bed for the entire family.

Even in 19th century America, in accounts I've read, people getting lodgings temporarily often lodged together, in the same room or the same bed, in a cheap lodging house. They thought nothing of it. (The men who first founded the Gideons were lodging together, as travelers, who didn't know one another, for instance, and discovered that they were both Christians.)

Our idea that beds are a place of privacy comes out of a much more affluent society -- which was here by the early 20th century, mostly, -- than 19th century America, let alone ancient Judea and Samaria, or modern slum cities in the third world.

[Proverbs 3:5-7]

But many people do not believe that the passage in question has anything to do with Christ's REturn and gathering His own to Himself, but to the contrary, many believe that the passage is giving instruction to those who were to prepare for the imminent crushing persecution and destruction of Titus and the Roman legions.

So we DO have to be careful about manipulating Scripture, isolating particular verses to "prove" our particular theological pet...

indeed we should be careful about NOT manipulating Scripture to "prove" anything contradictory to what it plainly states...

we should NOT isolate particular verses out of context OR omit particular verses in context...

but for anyone to believe (that alternate suggestion) about Luke 17 they'd have to OMIT what Christ plainly stated in verses 24, 26 & 30 in context with that passage

[MyRock]

I've got a question: What is "trollish" or a "troll"? I've heard the word used for a decade and never knew what it means. Hmmmmm
Urban dictionary says:
"One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument"

Correct. I would at times also call it bullying.

[jesusislord]

If homosexuality is wrong,why in Luke does it state..

Luke 17:34:I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

GOD BLESS US ALL and LOVE TO ALL!!


Well, in this we know there is a first problem; labels for sin.
First, in the Bible, there is no label for this, so, don't label it.
The label of it is what will trick you, because the devil loves to label sins; brings more attention to them.
Then you have people judging people who are not doing specific sins that others are doing ( state of the world today).

Also, misconception number 2.
Marriage.
Adam and Eve were not married.
Funny enough, Eve comes from Adam's rib ( no flesh action involved):
GENESIS 2:21-25
And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place.
Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.


Child birth and all was made from the sin of ADAM and EVE as part of their punishment:
GENESIS 3:16
To the woman He said:
“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”

So with all this being said, we know ADAM and EVE we not married as people are today because of how EVE was born. And we know later the falsity on divorce; which was a law made because of our lustful natures ( as this conversation was between JESUS and the Pharisees)
All made because we were lustful, idolatrous, and just plain very sinful ( in all aspects in the OT).

As Paul mentions:
But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment.
For I wish that all men were even as I myself.
But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.
But I say to the unmarried and to the widows:
It is good for them if they remain even as I am but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry.
For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.


So, let's understand that marriage is not a necessity as many people try to push.
Cause just through sin we lost a lot of power and access to GOD; as birth would have been how EVE was born.
PAINLESS and no interaction.
Some of you ( especially women) can't even imagine that.
But walking with GOD was not pain.
So we lost that.
READ ALL THAT AGAIN, THEN READ BELOW:

BUT those that meet people that push this marriage thing, may you never forget that we as believers are part of the WHOLE BODY.
So those with parts of the " fruits of the spirit", will minister strongly in what they know and the part of the ONE BODY that the HOLY SPIRIT gives them. Don't be alarmed by it; this is part of their mission. Most doing their mission as part of the ONE BODY will be quite emotional and strong in their mission. This is expected.

The ones that love everyone ( have a pure heart) will see GOD ( in their heart) while they are on earth.
These will have a very peacful " seeming" mission, because these are the ones GOD has allowed to see all the members of the ONE BODY and what they do.
Mind you that this person's labor will be to have to wait for the coming; which is a labor.

The temple ( the body) should be used for GOD's glory and ministry.
If there is a lust for anyone, then it's suggested to get married to have that lust satisfied through marriage through conceding a child; not for any other reason.
As some bodies were made to have children and some not.
In this marriage you are to work out your lusts with your wife or husband; but remember it's lusts, not that it's " right ".

Though there are many issues in peoples' life as children or just weak, that lead them to lustful things, and GOD knows them ( as well as they do).
IF person is doing their honest best in faith in the LORD to look through those issues that influenced them to these lusts, then they can stop in time.
These influences must be looked at through faith and prayer, because if not, then they can become bad uses of the body without marriage ( whatever form they are in).
May we know that GOD can cover many sins of that person who is truly trying to repent, stop, and be a person of GOD:
EZEKIAL 18:21-22
But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.

1 JOHN 1:5-7
This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

GOD is gracious, merciful, very forgiving, and loving; but may we not try to mock GOD.
GOD knows what each one of us deal with.
As we deal ( secretly or openly) through prayer and fasting, we are waiting ( while trying) til HE finally answers and helps take us out of those sins.

ONCE WE ARE OUT OF THOSE SINS, may we NOT judge a person still in those sins.
But if we are strong enough, let's be an example of a believer that has come out of the same sin, and walk in love next to the person still fighting that sin.
If we are not strong enough to walk around that person without sinning, then pray for that person in faith, and know GOD will bring them out; as GOD brought you. We have all sinned at some point in our lives; and still are ( thinking or doing).

All have a sin or sins they are dealing with, and GOD sees them all; we must love one another and pray for one another ( through faith) along with repentance and confession in order to bring each other out.

It's about seeing what you can do in faith to help someone not judge them.

Sin is sin.
Don't label it.
But know through faith and following CHRIST that it is an easy win over it.

AGAPE
MARK 12:29-31

[Warrior4God]

Adam and Eve were not married.

The fact that Adam and Eve didn't have a tux and gown and marriage license is irrelevant. They were brought together in the way God wanted. Some see that as being married. Also, they eventually consummated their relationship and had sexual relations. They were definitely "married" by that point.

In this marriage you are to work out your lusts with your wife or husband; but remember it's lusts, not that it's " right ".

You do realize, right, that Paul's wish for people to remain celibate is a calling that most people are not called by God to attain? You can call normal marital sexual desire "lusts," which implies it's "wrong." If that's the case, could you be a dear and inform God that He was quite wrong to give humans the ability to feel sexual desire for each other?

[adampjr]

If homosexuality is wrong,why in Luke does it state..

Luke 17:34:I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Because two men existing in the same bed doesn't mean gay sex. It means two men sleeping in the same bed. Homosexuality is wrong, not having a wide personal space is not.

[tango]

The OP looks like s/he has been banned, not much point rehashing this thread.

[jesusislord]

The fact that Adam and Eve didn't have a tux and gown and marriage license is irrelevant. They were brought together in the way God wanted. Some see that as being married. Also, they eventually consummated their relationship and had sexual relations. They were definitely "married" by that point.



You do realize, right, that Paul's wish for people to remain celibate is a calling that most people are not called by God to attain? You can call normal marital sexual desire "lusts," which implies it's "wrong." If that's the case, could you be a dear and inform God that He was quite wrong to give humans the ability to feel sexual desire for each other?

Warrior,

GOD BLESS US ALL and LOVE TO ALL,

Please read the post GOD had me write again.
Adam and Eve did not have relations till after they sinned; and Eve's punishment was pain through childbirth because of that sin.

Before the sin nothing was in pain.
GOD made life from Adam's rib (eve) with no pain or relation.
Which ties into GOD saying to them that they can have anything as long as they don't eat of the tree ( and it doesn't mean an apple!!!).
They weren't married as we were, because after GOD brought Eve from Adam's rib HE talked of having a " wife".

As far as the celibacy thing, now if you tie in all of this, then, you will see that we are not " desirous" if we are with GOD.
Those that were strong in the LORD ( JESUS, disciples, Mary, and Mary were not " fleshy" desirous). This was like Adam and Eve before they sinned.

When we fully trust in the LORD than anything is possible.
Because we don't trust, that's why even fasting for 15 days is impossible for most people.
As JESUS said, " many believe but are afraid" or " there is alot of harvest but the laborers are few".

GOD did not give us this desire.
Please read again.
Know what the " apple " is and after the devil tempting Eve she realized then later Adam ( after EVE tempted him) realized they were naked.

AGAPE
MARK 12:29-31