Can we advance in spiritual Character or only Walk in the Spirit Moment to Moment?

[Eyelog]

A person can have a good character...otherwise man would not be redeemable. You seem to confuse the power of the flesh which is alienated from God with the character of a child of God who seeks the light even when He is not exactly in the light.

I tend to agree with your general point here, of course. But your statement that we are not redeemable without good character is not supported in Scripture. In fact, we cannot be redeemed based on good character, no one is good but God per Jesus, the old man is what we are prior to being redeemed. the old anthropos is of the flesh, the sin nature and blinded by/under the control of the evil one.

Perhaps your view is that redemption is conditional until we see Christ. If that is why you said it that way, I would concur that no person who is being redeemed can have a character that has not been increasingly cleansed since the moment they were born again.

I tend to believe that a person can lose their salvation only if they have not been truly born again, in which case they are losing what they never fully possessed to begin with.

²⁸ “‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. ²⁹ For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. MT 25.

But anyone truly born again cannot lose their salvation, because they will participate in "the perseverance of the saints." They could not not lose their salvation, even if they backslid for some period(s) of time. Of course, a true believer will not stay in that state, but will eventually be brought back to repentance by the Lord.

On the other hand, from that view, the vast majority of nominal believers have not really entered through the narrow gate yet, because they refuse to obey and participate in the improvement of their character. As Jesus said, they build their house on the sand, having heard without putting into practice His Word in obedience, while those who put it into practice, thereby 'keeping' His Word, buidl their house on the solid foundation. So many interpret that passage in the Sermon on the Mount as if Jesus said if you hear and believe you build your house on the rock, which they presume to be Jesus Christ. But Jesus is NOT at all the rock in that simile. In context it is abundantly clear he means if you DO what He says you have your house on the rock of your obedience to the Word.

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Edited point: So far as the parable of the seed as the Word, and the one with the "good heart" who produces the abundant crop, it was not his character being so good before He received the Spirit which produced the crop. It was that he "perseveres". Perseverance of the saints is a tenant of Revelation associated with 'he who overcomes' and has to do with repenting of disobedience and is, of course, with the buidling of character in Romans 5 and 2 pe1.

[shepherdsword]

The only good character is dead character. If I am dead I will walk in the resurrected life. If I walk in resurrected life I will fulfill the will of God. Dead men tell no tales.

[episkopos]

I tend to agree with your general point here, of course. But your statement that we are not redeemable without good character is not supported in Scripture. In fact, we cannot be redeemed based on good character, no one is good but God per Jesus, the old man is what we are prior to being redeemed. the old anthropos is of the flesh, the sin nature and blinded by/under the control of the evil one.

Perhaps your view is that redemption is conditional until we see Christ. If that is why you said it that way, I would concur that no person who is being redeemed can have a character that has not been increasingly cleansed since the moment they were born again.

I tend to believe that a person can lose their salvation only if they have not been truly born again, in which case they are losing what they never fully possessed to begin with.



But anyone truly born again cannot lose their salvation, because they will participate in "the perseverance of the saints." They could not not lose their salvation, even if they backslid for some period(s) of time. Of course, a true believer will not stay in that state, but will eventually be brought back to repentance by the Lord.

On the other hand, from that view, the vast majority of nominal believers have not really entered through the narrow gate yet, because they refuse to obey and participate in the improvement of their character. As Jesus said, they build their house on the sand, having heard without putting into practice His Word in obedience, while those who put it into practice, thereby 'keeping' His Word, buidl their house on the solid foundation. So many interpret that passage in the Sermon on the Mount as if Jesus said if you hear and believe you build your house on the rock, which they presume to be Jesus Christ. But Jesus is NOT at all the rock in that simile. In context it is abundantly clear he means if you DO what He says you have your house on the rock of your obedience to the Word.

We are not our old man. The old man is the big monkey that is protecting the little monkey (our inner soul). There are 3 parts to a man...spirit soul and body. The soul is the ground that the spirit inhabits....and the body is the ground that the soul inhabits.

The old man is the sin nature that is in us that replaced the dependence on God....so it looked after us before our turning to Christ. It is put to death in order to put us under the power of the Spirit so that we don't do what we want...but what the Lord wants. So the soul is always the "little brother" to whatever is controlling or influencing it. The soul is the "man in the middle" caught between the body and either the Spirit or the flesh (power).

A man who has no connection to God survives through adopting an operating system that enables him to survive in the world. This operating system is the flesh....and it is alienated from the life of God. Why should a Christian serve the flesh???? For many...a total dependence on the Spirit for every thought is going too far...after all we are grown-ups (so goes the reasoning)! ;(

[Noeb]

A person can have a good character...otherwise man would not be redeemable. You seem to confuse the power of the flesh which is alienated from God with the character of a child of God who seeks the light even when He is not exactly in the light.

First of all, I was referring to why I answered the way I did and wrongly thought Eyelog was not saying in the flesh. Secondly, not believing we are born with a sin nature, I agree a person can have good character, in fact most everyone does to some degree, but that doesn't really mean anything does it? Good sometimes, doesn't cut it. Having works in law and flesh sometimes, doesn't cut it. The character of a child of God is the result of being a new creature, created after the knowledge and image of Christ, and faith "in Christ" -what he has done and given us, not your good character you were born with because you were created in God's image.

[episkopos]

The only good character is dead character. If I am dead I will walk in the resurrected life. If I walk in resurrected life I will fulfill the will of God. Dead men tell no tales.

No one has a dead character...unless he is a zombie. We all behave a certain way...Of whom can it be said...he has No behaviour at all! Can we tow a leaking tanker outside the environment so as not to affect it?

So we are always "in play" and our characters are seen by all. Even a child is known by his/her character.

Pro_20:11 Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.

The dead part of us the "big brother" that tries to survive by protecting the "little brother" within. Our inner man is like a computer with no operating system. The flesh nature works as an operating system as well as the Spirit...but these are contrary to each other.

In the end we must develop a character that is compatible to the Spirit. We must learn to reject the flesh and it's ways...no matter how desirable our bodies and our souls might find them.

[Noeb]

A person can have a good character...otherwise man would not be redeemable. You seem to confuse the power of the flesh which is alienated from God with the character of a child of God who seeks the light even when He is not exactly in the light.

Oh, and you are either in the light or not. You don't bounce back and forth between the two.

[episkopos]

First of all, I was referring to why I answered the way I did and wrongly thought Eyelog was not saying in the flesh. Secondly, not believing we are born with a sin nature, I agree a person can have good character, in fact most everyone does to some degree, but that doesn't really mean anything does it? Good sometimes, doesn't cut it. Having works in law and flesh sometimes, doesn't cut it. The character of a child of God is the result of being a new creature, created after the knowledge and image of Christ, and faith "in Christ" -what he has done and given us, not your good character you were born with because you were created in God's image.

Actually a good character is refined through obedience to the Spirit. We are born helpless. We soon take on the available nature that is ours by default. We do survive even without God's Spirit in us....but as fallen men. So we learn to use this fleshly nature to our own advantage in order to get what we need (and want). We learn worldly wisdom so that the flesh of others doesn't mess too badly with our own. So we develop a (un) healthy self-interest that keeps our heads above water.

That is until we reject the ways of the flesh...and the nature that provides it (the sin factory) in order to put on Christ. We become helpless once again in order to rely on the Spirit for ALL things. This is by faith since we make ourselves so vulnerable in that IF there is no God watching our every step...then we are the biggest idiots of all time. We become fools for Christ..like little babies that depend on God rather than on our own understanding, ideas and ways.

To a non-disciple surrendering all is seen as suicide...and it IS for them without Christ. It is like asking a man who is dangling above a chasm to let go...unless the Lord catches you you are dead. Hence the need of faith to let go. Or else a will to commit suicide. But as we are willing to die...God crucifies the sin nature in us....enabling us to receive of His Spirit.

So we are empowered to walk exactly as Jesus walked in the flesh...by supernatural power...according to His resurrection. Jesus died for our sins but was raised to empower us to walk as He did...unless a grain of wheat dies...

[episkopos]

Oh, and you are either in the light or not. You don't bounce back and forth between the two.

It is not...we know then we don't know then we know again...but rather..we do and then we don't do...then we do again.

We bounce back and forth according to our level of faith and obedience. Why do you sin and bounce back to being a heathen? We will not be judged by what we know (like in school) but by what we have DONE. So anyone who doesn't actually walk in the Spirit can't understand this. They think therefore they think they are. But there is no questionaire to fill out. Did we continue to sin after we claimed to be made righteous? If so...we will be rejected...a sinner who claims to be righteous is SELF-righteous. Are we justified to do whatever WE want in Christ?

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.


Gal_2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

So stop sinning and bouncing back and forth between Christ and the flesh!!!

[Nobunaga]

The old man is the big monkey that is protecting the little monkey (our inner soul).

I've looked at some biblical anthropology before but never come across this. Where do you get this from ?

[episkopos]

We join Christ in His death...then we are truly dead....then we are raised with Christ..then we are truly made alive in HIM. So we walk EXACTLY as He walked when THIS happens. The same life! No sin.

So those who say they are already completely sanctified...fine...then they can no longer sin. Those who claim to be fully sanctified and continue to sin are liars and a reproach to Christ. These will be cut off into outer darkness where they actually are in any regards. So those who claim to be in the light while yet still in the darkness of the flesh...will inherit darkness in eternity.

[episkopos]

I've looked at some biblical anthropology before but never come across this. Where do you get this from ?

How about this...the old man looks after the young inner man..until being set free in Christ.

[Nobunaga]

How about this...the old man looks after the young inner man..until being set free in Christ.

I was just wondering where it came from my friend there a lot of talk about Nee and so forth but this doesnt sound like a Nee-ism...just wondering ?

[shepherdsword]

No one has a dead character...unless he is a zombie. We all behave a certain way...Of whom can it be said...he has No behaviour at all! Can we tow a leaking tanker outside the environment so as not to affect it?

So we are always "in play" and our characters are seen by all. Even a child is known by his/her character.

Pro_20:11 Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.

The dead part of us the "big brother" that tries to survive by protecting the "little brother" within. Our inner man is like a computer with no operating system. The flesh nature works as an operating system as well as the Spirit...but these are contrary to each other.

In the end we must develop a character that is compatible to the Spirit. We must learn to reject the flesh and it's ways...no matter how desirable our bodies and our souls might find them.

If I am walking in the Spirit whose character am I demonstrating? If not am I not demonstrating my own? I must die so he can live,there is no other way. I am fully persuaded that in my flesh dwells no good thing.

[shepherdsword]

I was just wondering where it came from my friend there a lot of talk about Nee and so forth but this doesnt sound like a Nee-ism...just wondering ?

I wonder why whenever the old man and inner man is spoken of it is attributed to a "Neeism" I am more inclined to think it's a "Paulism". People often speak of Nee as one corrupted by eastern philosophy because he was Chinese. The irony is that these same people are probably more corrupted by Western Greek philosophers and American commercialism(as we all are to some degree) than Nee ever was by eastern mysticism.

[episkopos]

I was just wondering where it came from my friend there a lot of talk about Nee and so forth but this doesnt sound like a Nee-ism...just wondering ?

I don't know what Nee would say....

If we consider that the wisdom of men is very old...then trust in the "old man" seems very reasonable. The devil is very old as well and very practiced in messing up young ones.

But when compared to an eternal way...in God Himself...these others must melt away.