Can we advance in spiritual Character or only Walk in the Spirit Moment to Moment?

[Eyelog]

With regards to the biblical structure i will explain it here. I will not however talk for Noeb this is my view he can speak for himself.

Regarding sanctification and progression. Rather than try in to live by out the commands of God by human effort and obedience of the law. I hold that i am dead to the law and have been crucified with Christ and no longer live but Christ lives in me working by His spirit and enabling me by faith to do what i cannot do in my flesh. Anything done outside this faith is putting confidence in the flesh imo even if it so happens that the deed is a good one it is done by the flesh and not of faith and without faith it is impossible to please Him.

So rather than looking for affirmation by deeds of the law and a good performance i look to Christ and live by faith (i'm talking in perfect terms here that i dont always live up to) in Him to will and to work out His good pleasure in me, because i know in me and my flesh dwells no good thing....i have lived this out and now know it to be true (no good thing is in me) which is why i do not rely on my own performance but Him who saved me and now lives in me. I'm just a branch abiding in the vine the fruit will come if i abide in Him by faith. As soon as my eyes are off Him and on me then all bets are off and sin appears. This is my experience and my understanding of sanctification...The structure is simple live by faith, trust in God not in yourself or your performance. This does not mean however that performance has nothing to do with sanctification but performance is a by product not the prime product. The focus must always be Christ for the Christian life imo never us and our performance, the performance is the by-product of the faith. Taking your eyes off Christ and putting them on a performance is a sure way for depression and failure in my experience. Your dead to sin and alive to God.

This imo is not mystical or apathetical it is living by faith..it's how i got justified and it's how i am being sanctified by faith

I'm happy to discuss this further, if you want to comment or disagree.

Nobunaga, I think you explained that pretty well. I am wondering about what you describe as "enabling me by faith to do what i cannot do in my flesh".

1. So, it is YOU who do it, albeit enabled by God. It is not God obeying for you.
2. What enablement does He give? Does He strengthen your body, your mind or your resolve or what? That sounds supernatural, is it?
3. It sounds like you are talking about walking by faith in the promises of God, and saying that as you believe on the promises, you are able to do what He requires, somehow enabled by God ....
4. Is there progress of character related to this process you describe? If so, what would you mean by a development of character?
5. What about the real time leading of the Spirit? Noeb seemed to acknowledge it. Do you?

Thanks for the conversation.

[Nobunaga]

Nobunaga, I think you explained that pretty well. I am wondering about what you describe as "enabling me by faith to do what i cannot do in my flesh".

1. So, it is YOU who do it, albeit enabled by God. It is not God obeying for you.

Yes i'm still in the equation. It's not God alone but God working in me to will and to do His good pleasure.

2. What enablement does He give? Does He strengthen your body, your mind or your resolve or what? That sounds supernatural, is it?

The enablement comes by faith, a turning away from myself and not trusting in myself to do xy or z and in that moment look to God to be my portion for whatever the need is...As i abide in Him by faith and reckon myself dead to sin and alive to God. It may be a strengthening of my mind or resolve...there are times when i need resolve to avoid temptation and if i feel i'm about to enter into temptation i have to pray something like this " Lord without you i can do nothing, in me and my flesh dwells no good thing, by your Spirit work in me the resolve i need to fight against this temptation, the spirit is willing but my flesh is weak...Father you word says i am crucified with Christ and dead to sin and alive to God in Christ By your Spirit work in me and put to death the deeds of the flesh and cause me to walk in your ways, abide with me and bear fruit for your Holy Name"

I can only give you the type of prayers and the theology that runs through them as an example. The theology is mostly based on being dead to sin and alive to God and a trust in them as true.

I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes. Eze 36:27
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. Gal 2:20
consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus Rom 6:11
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. Gal 5:16

ect.

The Christian life by definition is supernatural...Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? .....I dont understand the supernatural question ?

3. It sounds like you are talking about walking by faith in the promises of God, and saying that as you believe on the promises, you are able to do what He requires, somehow enabled by God ....

I see it as walking by faith in God not just in His promises but in the declarative statements also e.g i am crucified with Christ and no longer live but Christ lives in me....I accept these by faith, although i live in the body, it's an objective fact that is not dependent on my reasoning. It's the word of God, my axiom for theology, if it says i'm crucified with Christ then thats what i am but in order for this to be real it has to be revealed to me by the Spirit then i can subjectively accept the objective fact by experience.

4. Is there progress of character related to this process you describe? If so, what would you mean by a development of character?

He never fails me when i trust in Him and look to Him, my problem is that after some success or due to lack of foresight i tend to lean on my own understanding and put some trust in me again, than i learn the lesson all over again, so growth for me would be a growing dependency on Him and a lesser dependency on me. Like John said He must increase and i must Decrease that seems fitting here.

Am i sinless ? ...No
Does He ever fail me when i look to Him ? ...Never !
Do i always look to Him... No, and this is my problem and where i have to grow by practical experience each day.

5. What about the real time leading of the Spirit? Noeb seemed to acknowledge it. Do you?

Can you elaborate ? I'm from a Reformed background so i'm not familiar with spiritual terms I can detect the Spirits leading sometimes in real time, for example if i get the urge to pray, i just drop what i'm doing and pray. But i dont think this is anything out of the ordinary for a Christian, plus i have a long way to go and a lot to learn in walking by the Spirit. Maybe i'm missing a specific point you have ?

[Eyelog]

Yes i'm still in the equation. It's not God alone but God working in me to will and to do His good pleasure.



The enablement comes by faith, a turning away from myself and not trusting in myself to do xy or z and in that moment look to God to be my portion for whatever the need is...As i abide in Him by faith and reckon myself dead to sin and alive to God. It may be a strengthening of my mind or resolve...there are times when i need resolve to avoid temptation and if i feel i'm about to enter into temptation i have to pray something like this " Lord without you i can do nothing, in me and my flesh dwells no good thing, by your Spirit work in me the resolve i need to fight against this temptation, the spirit is willing but my flesh is weak...Father you word says i am crucified with Christ and dead to sin and alive to God in Christ By your Spirit work in me and put to death the deeds of the flesh and cause me to walk in your ways, abide with me and bear fruit for your Holy Name"

I can only give you the type of prayers and the theology that runs through them as an example. The theology is mostly based on being dead to sin and alive to God and a trust in them as true.

I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes. Eze 36:27
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. Gal 2:20
consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus Rom 6:11
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. Gal 5:16

ect.

The Christian life by definition is supernatural...Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? .....I dont understand the supernatural question ?



I see it as walking by faith in God not just in His promises but in the declarative statements also e.g i am crucified with Christ and no longer live but Christ lives in me....I accept these by faith, although i live in the body, it's an objective fact that is not dependent on my reasoning. It's the word of God, my axiom for theology, if it says i'm crucified with Christ then thats what i am but in order for this to be real it has to be revealed to me by the Spirit then i can subjectively accept the objective fact by experience.




He never fails me when i trust in Him and look to Him, my problem is that after some success or due to lack of foresight i tend to lean on my own understanding and put some trust in me again, than i learn the lesson all over again, so growth for me would be a growing dependency on Him and a lesser dependency on me. Like John said He must increase and i must Decrease that seems fitting here.

Am i sinless ? ...No
Does He ever fail me when i look to Him ? ...Never !
Do i always look to Him... No, and this is my problem and where i have to grow by practical experience each day.



Can you elaborate ? I'm from a Reformed background so i'm not familiar with spiritual terms I can detect the Spirits leading sometimes in real time, for example if i get the urge to pray, i just drop what i'm doing and pray. But i dont think this is anything out of the ordinary for a Christian, plus i have a long way to go and a lot to learn in walking by the Spirit. Maybe i'm missing a specific point you have ?

No, actually. I really appreciate your very clear desription of your faith and experience

The only reason I break down the. Abiding/walking/obedience methods or practices into groups is to show their steps and dilineate how far a person has gone in proactively seeking their development into the image of christ

[marianna]

Wrong. Walking in the Spirit is a promise or guarantee that we will walk in obedience.





Your recipe, there, for how to please God is a good one. I don't deny it. But our problem of disobedience if we are wont to walk in the Spirit is not that we are unable while God is leading and we are following in real time communication. Rather, our problem is, as I believe Episkopos or Watchman or someone pointed out, running into a situation where we don't want to keep following the leading. We can refuse, drift away or otherwise do what I call "popping out from under the yoke of the Spirit." In that case, we stop obeying. That is the inherent limitation or brick wall of trying to consistently obey via walking in the Spirit, or, trying to grow in character via walking in the Spirit.

Thus, we need to proactively deal with what it is which keeps making us pop out from under the yoke of the Spirit. What is that? One person, maybe Episkopos or maybe Watchman, said it was self-focus, selfish desires, etc. This is on the mark. Indeed, it is all that belongs to the second category of the flesh nature, the old man/self/anthropos.

The elephant in the Christian room is How do you proactively deal with the Old Self? Saying you do so by either seeking to obey or submit to discipline, or by walking in the Spirit, or even by walking in the promises of the God, is correct, ... but INCOMPLETE.

this is wrong. its a poor undwerstanding of our ability to obey to Gods standard. thats not HOW we walk in ther Spirit.
confessing our sins is the condition of walking in the Spirit.

see 1 John 1. if we think we are without sin at any time, john said we're liars and in darkness.

we were born again when we agreeed with God that we are sinners and that only Jesus death and resurrection (Blood and Life) saves us, is the only ground on which God will justify us.

when we are born again we are not aussdenly without sin. john said it, not me.

confession of sins and receiving cleansing is how we walk in the Spirit and walk in the Light. Christ Blood then cleanses us from unrighteousness. we leanr to confess our sin by continually eating the bread of life, paretaking of the Bible and learning what sin is. we confess our failings and we are cleansed. thats sanctification.

we are justified by God who alone justifies the unglody (you and me).

[episkopos]

this is wrong. its a poor undwerstanding of our ability to obey to Gods standard. thats not HOW we walk in ther Spirit.
confessing our sins is the condition of walking in the Spirit.

see 1 John 1. if we think we are without sin at any time, john said we're liars and in darkness.

we were born again when we agreeed with God that we are sinners and that only Jesus death and resurrection (Blood and Life) saves us, is the only ground on which God will justify us.

when we are born again we are not aussdenly without sin. john said it, not me.

confession of sins and receiving cleansing is how we walk in the Spirit and walk in the Light. Christ Blood then cleanses us from unrighteousness. we leanr to confess our sin by continually eating the bread of life, paretaking of the Bible and learning what sin is. we confess our failings and we are cleansed. thats sanctification.

we are justified by God who alone justifies the unglody (you and me).

This is the human reasoning that has entered into the mainstream to sidetrack the truth. Christianity is not a scapegoat system...of blaming another for what we have done...but a sacrificial system of entering into a new life through a death of the old. We are to FOLLOW Christ...not just point to Him. Unless we die to the sin nature we can have no part with Christ. Jesus didn't just replace animal sacrifices....He was resurrected to grant new life...HIS LIFE.. To miss this is to miss the gospel entirely and settle for a scheme that has no effect in the redeeming of creation back to God.

The verse you quoted was directed at the gnostic notion that we can sin and then say we have no sin. Gnostics believe that they are no longer responsible for sins they commit...it is no longer an issue for them...just like most Christians falsely believe today. An honest look at the rest of what John is saying confirms that he taught that we who are dead to sin can no longer sin.....just as Paul also taught.

We live in a time of complete irresponsibility among men....and this same irresponsibility has invaded the church. Christianity is now taught as a system of irresponsibility and immunity from reaping what we have ourselves sown. This stance is self-condemnatory as it goes directly against the truth. So the glorious truth has been rejected in favour of a convenient lie.

[episkopos]

Do we think the "good news" is something that will be received gladly by unregenerate men (like free hotdogs) or rather the fact that the news is "good" because it comes from God? Good describes what God says is good not what we consider as good. The gospel message is death at first. Most will stop there. But if we pursue this death knowing the mercy and love of God...then we will trust God's ways and persist until we reach His life. So we walk by faith...not by what our senses are telling us. Then we will know the "good" and enjoy the good of the land.

[marianna]

This is the human reasoning that has entered into the mainstream to sidetrack the truth. Christianity is not a scapegoat system...of blaming another for what we have done...but a sacrificial system of entering into a new life through a death of the old. We are to FOLLOW Christ...not just point to Him. Unless we die to the sin nature we can have no part with Christ. Jesus didn't just replace animal sacrifices....He was resurrected to grant new life...HIS LIFE.. To miss this is to miss the gospel entirely and settle for a scheme that has no effect in the redeeming of creation back to God.

The verse you quoted was directed at the gnostic notion that we can sin and then say we have no sin. Gnostics believe that they are no longer responsible for sins they commit...it is no longer an issue for them...just like most Christians falsely believe today. An honest look at the rest of what John is saying confirms that he taught that we who are dead to sin can no longer sin.....just as Paul also taught.

We live in a time of complete irresponsibility among men....and this same irresponsibility has invaded the church. Christianity is now taught as a system of irresponsibility and immunity from reaping what we have ourselves sown. This stance is self-condemnatory as it goes directly against the truth. So the glorious truth has been rejected in favour of a convenient lie.

wrong.
john included himself in the universal WE.
is WE say we have no sin we LIE.
he did not say some men say they dont sin and theres no light in them.

john was talking to christians.

he was correcting 2 heresires.

one antinomianism (our sin doesnt matter, or we shoul sin to defile the old nature)

the other was sinlessness.

anyways, never mind. john said if you deny you have sin youre a liar. i'm not saying that about you. but you needd to read 1 john again.
and i never said our sin doesnt matter. i said we need were told to CONFESS IT AND BE CLEANSED.

you say thats wrong. does that mean you dont have to confess and be cleansed? that means you deny you sin and johnj said therews no truth in someone like that.

[episkopos]

wrong.
john included himself in the universal WE.
is WE say we have no sin we LIE.
he did not say some men say they dont sin and theres no light in them.

john was talking to christians.

he was correcting 2 heresires.

one antinomianism (our sin doesnt matter, or we shoul sin to defile the old nature)

the other was sinlessness.

anyways, never mind. john said if you deny you have sin youre a liar. i'm not saying that about you. but you needd to read 1 john again.
and i never said our sin doesnt matter. i said we need were told to CONFESS IT AND BE CLEANSED.

you say thats wrong. does that mean you dont have to confess and be cleansed? that means you deny you sin and johnj said therews no truth in someone like that.

We initially confess our sins and estrangement from God. But to continually need forgiveness means you are a slave of sin and still immune from the truth. You are assuming that Christ does not abide in people....that we are still on our own in our own limited strength. Does Christ lead people to sin?

You really must go beyond your tentative grasp of a few verses that are so popularly twisted to contradict the rest of scripture.

Those who walk in their own strength WILL sin...but these are not walking IN Christ. They are still walking IN themselves. Those who have actually experienced this resurrection grace realize that they can do ALL things (including being obedient) through Christ who enables them to (by grace).

Do a bible study on sin. Write all the verses that seem to say that we must continue to sin AFTER conversion. Now write all the verses that say we are now empowered to not sin on another column. Be honest and compare...then get back to the forum with a new found understanding.

Did Jesus die to set us free from sin or grant immunity to some sinners over others? Are overcomers overcoming God and His righteous judgments or sin itself?

[marianna]

This is the human reasoning that has entered into the mainstream to sidetrack the truth. Christianity is not a scapegoat system...of blaming another for what we have done...but a sacrificial system of entering into a new life through a death of the old. We are to FOLLOW Christ...not just point to Him. Unless we die to the sin nature we can have no part with Christ. Jesus didn't just replace animal sacrifices....He was resurrected to grant new life...HIS LIFE.. To miss this is to miss the gospel entirely and settle for a scheme that has no effect in the redeeming of creation back to God.

The verse you quoted was directed at the gnostic notion that we can sin and then say we have no sin. Gnostics believe that they are no longer responsible for sins they commit...it is no longer an issue for them...just like most Christians falsely believe today. An honest look at the rest of what John is saying confirms that he taught that we who are dead to sin can no longer sin.....just as Paul also taught.

We live in a time of complete irresponsibility among men....and this same irresponsibility has invaded the church. Christianity is now taught as a system of irresponsibility and immunity from reaping what we have ourselves sown. This stance is self-condemnatory as it goes directly against the truth. So the glorious truth has been rejected in favour of a convenient lie.

no longer continually abide in the sinful life.
i think the biggest problem in the church is people who claim they no longer sin.
john said they are liars and they have no light in them.

please adddress whether john was including himself in the God-breathed passage.

as for christianity not being a scapegoat system, you dont know anything about then.
Jesus was the Lamb who paid the sins of the world.

but he was also the scapegoat in that he carried the guilt away and took the balme.

i see you do not believe in propitiation. is that true? that God appeased the wrath that was adibing on ytour head and mine when Jesus took our place on the Cross? did he or didnt He take our place? if not, what was he doing there?

please just address the questions i'm asking. i dont care if you say youre righteous now. i want to know if God poured his wrath on Jesus in your place. and if you say He was or was not the prop[ititation for our sins? ALL OF THEM. please just address p[ropitiation. if you disagree with what the scriptures say on it, i dont have anything else to say.

if you say no, you are disagreeing with jonh, and with Jesus (which you already did by denying Jesus took the blame even though he was innocent). so your religion is false imo. it has a form of godliness but denies the REAL power thereof....not your power. God's.

still in 1 john (2:2):

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós ("propitiation").

see?
CONFESSED SIN.

if you say you have no sin, you dont confess it. (and john said people who say that are liars)
if you dont confess your sin, its not forgiven and his wrath remains on you.

true or false?

[marianna]

We initially confess our sins and estrangement from God. But to continually need forgiveness means you are a slave of sin and still immune from the truth. You are assuming that Christ does not abide in people....that we are still on our own in our own limited strength. Does Christ lead people to sin?

You really must go beyond your tentative grasp of a few verses that are so popularly twisted to contradict the rest of scripture.

Those who walk in their own strength WILL sin...but these are not walking IN Christ. They are still walking IN themselves. Those who have actually experienced this resurrection grace realize that they can do ALL things (including being obedient) through Christ who enables them to (by grace).

Do a bible study on sin. Write all the verses that seem to say that we must continue to sin AFTER conversion. Now write all the verses that say we are now empowered to not sin on another column. Be honest and compare...then get back to the forum with a new found understanding.

wrong. were no longer slaves to sin.
but we truly regenerated who DO respond to the Holy Spirit know what the real meaning of sin is, and the Law. and we knwow we sin daily. by doing, saying, not doing, not saying.

everything we do not do to fulfill the Law is sin.

the difference is christians know how short they fall the more familair with the Law they are. the longer one is a christian who really understands why Emmanuel had to come knows they sin. anyone who says they odnt is a liar and doesnt know Christ, has not truth and doesnt walk in the light...BECAUSE THEY DO NOT CONFESS THEIR SIN.

so they are not cleansed. or forgiven.

true or false according to the bible?

[episkopos]

wrong. were no longer slaves to sin.
but we truly regenerated who DO respond to the Holy Spirit know what the real meaning of sin is, and the Law. and we knwow we sin daily. by doing, saying, not doing, not saying.

everything we do not do to fulfill the Law is sin.

the difference is christians know how short they fall the more familair with the Law they are. the longer one is a christian who really understands why Emmanuel had to come knows they sin. anyone who says they odnt is a liar and doesnt know Christ, has not truth and doesnt walk in the light...BECAUSE THEY DO NOT CONFESS THEIR SIN.

so they are not cleansed. or forgiven.

true or false according to the bible?

Do the bible study....don't just listen to men and their doctrines.

[marianna]

Do we think the "good news" is something that will be received gladly by unregenerate men (like free hotdogs) or rather the fact that the news is "good" because it comes from God? Good describes what God says is good not what we consider as good. The gospel message is death at first. Most will stop there. But if we pursue this death knowing the mercy and love of God...then we will trust God's ways and persist until we reach His life. So we walk by faith...not by what our senses are telling us. Then we will know the "good" and enjoy the good of the land.

you dont understand the Law or ther Gospel.
go back and reread Romans 8. dont foreget Roamns 7.

[marianna]

Do the bible study....don't just listen to men and their doctrines.

pardon? you're the man talking.

i suggested you go back to 1 john.
according to him youre bordewrting on deceivng yourself.

you never confess your sin because you dont sin?

that makes you a liar.

[episkopos]

no longer continually abide in the sinful life.
i think the biggest problem in the church is people who claim they no longer sin.
john said they are liars and they have no light in them.

please adddress whether john was including himself in the God-breathed passage.

as for christianity not being a scapegoat system, you dont know anything about then.
Jesus was the Lamb who paid the sins of the world.

but he was also the scapegoat in that he carried the guilt away and took the balme.

i see you do not believe in propitiation. is that true? that God appeased the wrath that was adibing on ytour head and mine when Jesus took our place on the Cross? did he or didnt He take our place? if not, what was he doing there?

please just address the questions i'm asking. i dont care if you say youre righteous now. i want to know if God poured his wrath on Jesus in your place. and if you say He was or was not the prop[ititation for our sins? ALL OF THEM. please just address p[ropitiation. if you disagree with what the scriptures say on it, i dont have anything else to say.

if you say no, you are disagreeing with jonh, and with Jesus (which you already did by denying Jesus took the blame even though he was innocent). so your religion is false imo. it has a form of godliness but denies the REAL power thereof....not your power. God's.

still in 1 john (2:2):

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós ("propitiation").

see?
CONFESSED SIN.

if you say you have no sin, you dont confess it. (and john said people who say that are liars)
if you dont confess your sin, its not forgiven and his wrath remains on you.

true or false?

It is evident that you are stuck in a rut due to human understanding. Look beyond your indoctrination. Look at what John is really saying...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

God does not lead us into sin. God does not empower a person to sin. What miracle includes an act of sin? Does the Spirit say...hey! go enjoy yourself???? You are really talking of a person who has never known Christ who thinks that Christianity is about covering up the truth.

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. (which is good?)

Are you saying that a transgressor (that Paul names) is actually the saved one????

[episkopos]

pardon? you're the man talking.

i suggested you go back to 1 john.
according to him youre bordewrting on deceivng yourself.

you never confess your sin because you dont sin?

that makes you a liar.

You have turned the world upside down. Do we need to sin in order to be forgiven? Should I actively sin so that I can be justified through confession?

Actually a man who abides in Christ cannot sin. THAT is what the bible says. You are just looking for a reason to disbelieve. You have a right to do that.