Scholarship aka the wisdom of man is secondary at BEST

[Watchman]

This thread is, perhaps, long overdue. There is a cadre of folks who believe that study of Greek and Hebrew, as well as study of history is THE way to properly understand and interpret scripture. To this I say, balderdash and poppycock!

Paul plainly stated, in 1 Corinthians 2, that the wisdom of man is not capable of discerning the things of the Spirit. I say the wisdom of man includes philosophy, scholarship, and any other endeavor upon which man may embark, through which he can apprehend the truth of scripture and the will of God. What say you?

I'm not throwing the baby away with the bath water. I'm simply making this point: one cannot apprehend things of the Spirit--which includes scripture--in a strictly academic fashion. I'm not deprecating study, rather, I'm saying if we study sans the guidance of the Spirit, then we are exclusively using the wisdom of man (which is a soulish, unspiritual wisdom) in an effort to learn and grow spiritually. This does not happen. It only results in folks accumulating information. It results in folks knowing about God but not knowing Him. Some who read these words will think I'm saying study is no good...but they will be mistaken.

That's not what you said in your OP.

Ummm...ok, what is different? BTW, what is TWU?

W

[Watchman]

I have enjoyed your thread Watchman, as I always enjoy your threads.
Some time back - might have even been the 1st page- you stated that thinking should not be done without the leading of the Holy Spirit, and one of the replies to this was: Then why would God have given us the ability to think without Him?
This was never His intent, to apply the mind He gave us without His leading.
The entire story of the fall shows why thinking apart from His leading to guide us is not good.
Yes, He gave us the ability to go with our own thinking apart from Him.
And no it's never a good thing. Anyway, thank you for the thread.

You're quite welcome. As far as I can tell in my sleepy state, I've answered everyone's posts, with the exception of one poster. It appears to me that this thread has turned into some sort of an argument, so I'm going to bid it farewell...unless something cogent and relevant gets posted.

blessings,

Andy

[TomH]

Can we really trust someone who sleeps with one eye open?

[TomH]

Agree with the first part. The last statement is rather irrelevant and baseless.

W

Ignoring the last part as baseless has been the downfall of many pseudo scholars.

[Boo]

There is not shortage of pseudo-scholars. It is in determining who they are that we need to focus so that we can be taught properly.

Strangely enough, we can determine who they are by the same method we can determine who are pseudo-Christians.

Discernment is just as critical today as it ever was, and so it reading and understanding the scriptures and asking God for understanding. If we don't, we also can become disobedient.

[Nobunaga]

No...I don't believe we should stop thinking; however, thinking about spiritual things apart from the Spirit's leading IS fleshly. I got off the rails here.

blessings,

W

I totally agree brother !

[rejoice44]

1. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Isn't it apparent? The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the proliferation of ancient manuscripts has solidified our position and given us the ability to say that our texts have not changed in any meaningful way. Over 400,000 variations between texts and almost all of those 400,000 do absolutely nothing to change the meaning of what was said.

I have never been against education, just the liberal bias that so pervades it. The following are the words of J. C. Philpot, written in 1857 on "The Desirability of keeping the Authorized Version

"We take this opportunity to express our opinion upon a question much agitated of late--whether it would be desirable to have a new (or at least a revised) translation of the Scriptures. We fully admit that there are here and there passages of which the translation might be improved, as, for instance, "love" for "charity" all through 1 Corinthians 13; but we deprecate any alteration as a measure that, for the smallest sprinkling of good, would deluge us with a flood of evil. The following are our reasons:

1. Who are to undertake it? Into whose hands would the revision fall? What an opportunity for the enemies of truth to give us a mutilated false Bible! Of course, they must be learned men, great critics, scholars, and divines, but these are notoriously either Puseyites or Neologians (We should say: Anglo-Catholics and Modernists.)--in other words, deeply tainted with either popery or infidelity. Where are there learned men sound in the truth, not to say alive unto God, who possess the necessary qualifications for so important a work? And can erroneous men, men dead in trespasses and sins, carnal, worldly, ungodly persons, spiritually translate a book written by the blessed Spirit? We have not the slightest ground for hope that they would be godly men, such as we have reason to believe translated the Scriptures into our present version.

2. Again, it would unsettle the minds of thousands as to which was the Word of God, the old translation or the new. What a door it would open for the workings of infidelity, or the temptations of Satan! What a gloom, too, it would cast over the minds of many of God's saints to have those passages which had been applied to their souls translated in a different way, and how it would seem to shake all their experience of the power and preciousness of God's Word!

3. But besides this, there would be two Bibles spread through the land, the old and the new, and what confusion would this create in almost every place! At present, all sects and denominations agree in acknowledging our present version as the standard of appeal. Nothing settles disputes so soon as when the contending parties have confidence in the same umpire and are willing to abide by his decision. But this judge of all disputes, this umpire of all controversy, would cease to be the looser of strife if the present acknowledged authority were put an end to by a rival."

My question is, What role has the Dead Sea Scrolls played in the life of the non-Textual Critic in regards to his relationship with Christ?

I am non-scholar, as you would most happily agree, and the only thing I can see about the Dead Sea Scrolls is the secrecy and disputes surrounding it. Details regarding the language of the material relating to the New Testament are lacking. There seems to be a dispute as to whether it points to the Septuagint, as found in the Alexandrian manuscripts, or the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible.

My faith in the bible would not, nor could be changed due to something newly discovered. My bible says in Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect." My faith is not based on man, but rather God, through the spirit.

[awestruckchild]

I guess it has become apparent to me that some men depend a lot more on the Holy Spirit to guide them from moment to moment and some men don't.

It doesn't seem possible for men who follow His leading from moment to moment to explain how they do it to other men. I don't think they are going to understand.

I can't believe I'm going to fire up the grill and bring the cheeseburger back but I think I am going to do just that.

It isn't that a man who follows the leading of the Spirit may not get it into his head that he wants to go out for a cheeseburger one day, but if he did, and he was heading for Wendy's and he heard God's voice (and when I say "heard", it isn't audible most of the time) leading him to turn into the McDonald's, he would follow that leading. He would not know why he was being led there or have any plan other than getting the cheeseburger he was hankering for, but at that point, since God had spoken, he would be ordering that cheeseburger with his eyes and ears on alert as to what God was doing and why he was supposed to be in that PARTICULAR hamburger joint.

It isn't that the man consulted the Holy Spirit as to whether he was allowed to have a cheeseburger. He had the thought that he wanted one and he just grabbed the car keys and left. The man made his plans, but then GOD guided his steps. God didn't even deny him the cheeseburger. He was perfectly fine with the man wanting a cheeseburger.

It's akin to....Paul saying he was headed somewhere but the Holy Spirit didn't permit it and led him somewhere else. It is also akin to: My sheep know my voice and they follow My voice. I have always just seen that this leading IS His voice. It is Him telling me to turn to the left or the right, like the verse says that you will hear a voice behind you saying go to the left or the right.

I don't think this makes us robots. This just means we follow His voice, and we walk in the Spirit at all times.

I know this will sound foolish to some people who search the scriptures (as we all do) but deny the Power that could set them apart for His use. I can't help that. Neither can I help that they scoff at me. I can try to explain it, but their derision can't make me stop walking in the Spirit and following His leading. I am too dependent on His voice to tell me which way to go to stop obeying it. And, whether it makes me look like a robot to them or not, it is what I WANT to do and what I am SUPPOSED to do.

I am under no illusions that all people will understand what I have said here, but I know that Watchman will understand!

[Watchman]

I guess it has become apparent to me that some men depend a lot more on the Holy Spirit to guide them from moment to moment and some men don't.

It doesn't seem possible for men who follow His leading from moment to moment to explain how they do it to other men. I don't think they are going to understand.

I can't believe I'm going to fire up the grill and bring the cheeseburger back but I think I am going to do just that.

It isn't that a man who follows the leading of the Spirit may not get it into his head that he wants to go out for a cheeseburger one day, but if he did, and he was heading for Wendy's and he heard God's voice (and when I say "heard", it isn't audible most of the time) leading him to turn into the McDonald's, he would follow that leading. He would not know why he was being led there or have any plan other than getting the cheeseburger he was hankering for, but at that point, since God had spoken, he would be ordering that cheeseburger with his eyes and ears on alert as to what God was doing and why he was supposed to be in that PARTICULAR hamburger joint.

It isn't that the man consulted the Holy Spirit as to whether he was allowed to have a cheeseburger. He had the thought that he wanted one and he just grabbed the car keys and left. The man made his plans, but then GOD guided his steps. God didn't even deny him the cheeseburger. He was perfectly fine with the man wanting a cheeseburger.

It's akin to....Paul saying he was headed somewhere but the Holy Spirit didn't permit it and led him somewhere else. It is also akin to: My sheep know my voice and they follow My voice. I have always just seen that this leading IS His voice. It is Him telling me to turn to the left or the right, like the verse says that you will hear a voice behind you saying go to the left or the right.

I don't think this makes us robots. This just means we follow His voice, and we walk in the Spirit at all times.

I know this will sound foolish to some people who search the scriptures (as we all do) but deny the Power that could set them apart for His use. I can't help that. Neither can I help that they scoff at me. I can try to explain it, but their derision can't make me stop walking in the Spirit and following His leading. I am too dependent on His voice to tell me which way to go to stop obeying it. And, whether it makes me look like a robot to them or not, it is what I WANT to do and what I am SUPPOSED to do.

I am under no illusions that all people will understand what I have said here, but I know that Watchman will understand!

Yes, I do understand. The invisible, spiritual realm is never idle. What we think is a burger run may actually be a ministry run.

W

[awestruckchild]

Yes, I do understand. The invisible, spiritual realm is never idle. What we think is a burger run may actually be a ministry run.

W

Yes!
W, may I ask you this?
What do you make of those times when you follow His leading and nothing of note seems to happen?
I have thought that it may just be to see if we will follow to get us to a place where when He leads the next time, whether we will ignore the leading because nothing apparent to us happened the time before. Maybe to get us to a point where we aren't following His voice because we know exciting things will be happening, but simply because we obey.
My other thought has been, well, who knows what He might have been wanting to keep me FROM, or a place where He wanted to keep me OUT of...

[Athanasius]

I have never been against education, just the liberal bias that so pervades it.

Funny that I should tell you not all men are like Bruce Metzger or Fenton John Hort (that is, 'liberal'), and your reply is to ask me to "list all the positive things that have been attained by our intellectual scholars who have toyed with the Hebrew and Greek over the past 200 years." You could have simply agreed with me.

The following are the words of J. C. Philpot, written in 1857 on "The Desirability of keeping the Authorized Version

"We take this opportunity to express our opinion upon a question much agitated of late--whether it would be desirable to have a new (or at least a revised) translation of the Scriptures. We fully admit that there are here and there passages of which the translation might be improved, as, for instance, "love" for "charity" all through 1 Corinthians 13; but we deprecate any alteration as a measure that, for the smallest sprinkling of good, would deluge us with a flood of evil. The following are our reasons:

1. Who are to undertake it? Into whose hands would the revision fall? What an opportunity for the enemies of truth to give us a mutilated false Bible! Of course, they must be learned men, great critics, scholars, and divines, but these are notoriously either Puseyites or Neologians (We should say: Anglo-Catholics and Modernists.)--in other words, deeply tainted with either popery or infidelity. Where are there learned men sound in the truth, not to say alive unto God, who possess the necessary qualifications for so important a work? And can erroneous men, men dead in trespasses and sins, carnal, worldly, ungodly persons, spiritually translate a book written by the blessed Spirit? We have not the slightest ground for hope that they would be godly men, such as we have reason to believe translated the Scriptures into our present version.

2. Again, it would unsettle the minds of thousands as to which was the Word of God, the old translation or the new. What a door it would open for the workings of infidelity, or the temptations of Satan! What a gloom, too, it would cast over the minds of many of God's saints to have those passages which had been applied to their souls translated in a different way, and how it would seem to shake all their experience of the power and preciousness of God's Word!

3. But besides this, there would be two Bibles spread through the land, the old and the new, and what confusion would this create in almost every place! At present, all sects and denominations agree in acknowledging our present version as the standard of appeal. Nothing settles disputes so soon as when the contending parties have confidence in the same umpire and are willing to abide by his decision. But this judge of all disputes, this umpire of all controversy, would cease to be the looser of strife if the present acknowledged authority were put an end to by a rival."

I'm not sure why you've quoted this.

My question is, What role has the Dead Sea Scrolls played in the life of the non-Textual Critic in regards to his relationship with Christ?

I am non-scholar, as you would most happily agree, and the only thing I can see about the Dead Sea Scrolls is the secrecy and disputes surrounding it. Details regarding the language of the material relating to the New Testament are lacking. There seems to be a dispute as to whether it points to the Septuagint, as found in the Alexandrian manuscripts, or the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible.

Every text has disputes surrounding it, but I'm not sure what secrecy you're referring to.

My faith in the bible would not, nor could be changed due to something newly discovered. My bible says in Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect." My faith is not based on man, but rather God, through the spirit.

Your faith isn't in question.

[rejoice44]

Funny that I should tell you not all men are like Bruce Metzger or Fenton John Hort (that is, 'liberal'), and your reply is to ask me to "list all the positive things that have been attained by our intellectual scholars who have toyed with the Hebrew and Greek over the past 200 years." You could have simply agreed with me.

I'm not sure why you've quoted this.

Isn't it textual criticism that we are talking about when we refer to scholarship? Wasn't it Hort and Metzger, who were two of the leading scholars on textual criticism, and were they not the basis on which almost all modern day scholarship leans? Philpot hit the nail on the head when he said the leading scholars would be liberal, and give us many bibles instead of one.

Every text has disputes surrounding it, but I'm not sure what secrecy you're referring to.

Why is it that most of the discovery's were in the late forties, and yet in 1999 they are still revealing parts of it?

[Watchman]

Yes!
W, may I ask you this?
What do you make of those times when you follow His leading and nothing of note seems to happen?
I have thought that it may just be to see if we will follow to get us to a place where when He leads the next time, whether we will ignore the leading because nothing apparent to us happened the time before. Maybe to get us to a point where we aren't following His voice because we know exciting things will be happening, but simply because we obey.
My other thought has been, well, who knows what He might have been wanting to keep me FROM, or a place where He wanted to keep me OUT of...

You've gotten it. Obedience is our part, results are His part. Just because we see no results doesn't mean nothing happened. He's kept me from going places before, a couple of different times, and I found out later He was protecting me because of what transpired where I wanted to go. He's very gracious about teaching us to obey.

blessings,

Watchman

[Hawkins]

This thread is, perhaps, long overdue. There is a cadre of folks who believe that study of Greek and Hebrew, as well as study of history is THE way to properly understand and interpret scripture. To this I say, balderdash and poppycock!

Paul plainly stated, in 1 Corinthians 2, that the wisdom of man is not capable of discerning the things of the Spirit. I say the wisdom of man includes philosophy, scholarship, and any other endeavor upon which man may embark, through which he can apprehend the truth of scripture and the will of God. What say you?

blessings,

Watchman

Spiritual accuracy doesn't depends on human perfection. As we all know that humans are not perfect, so if the spiritual accuracy of the Bible is depending on human textual accuracy, it'll never be perfect. The spiritual accuracy depends on the translators' hearts and their faith in God. It depends how much they rely on God's assistance instead of their human linguistic knowledge, as long as their linguistic skills are adequate as permitted and accepted by God instead of man.

The Bible is perfect not because it's with textual flaws or not. The Bible is perfect because God's will is realized that all His sheep when read will choose to believe Him. Each valid translation will have its effect on a mass of people (His sheep), blow their mind and make them firmly believe in God. This effect however has nothing to do with how accurate your Greek or Hebrew wording you can apply.

God measures its effect to people from the point the translation is done till forever in future, He calculate how many souls totally will be saved due the translation, this however won't rely on a perfect textual translation from a human's perspective. The Bible translations' social effect and spiritual effect are not tied to how well it is translated from a human's perspective. God doesn't need that accuracy or that kind of perfection for His job to be done (soul saving) and His will to be execised. That's the main theme.

[Saved7]

You've gotten it. Obedience is our part, results are His part. Just because we see no results doesn't mean nothing happened. He's kept me from going places before, a couple of different times, and I found out later He was protecting me because of what transpired where I wanted to go. He's very gracious about teaching us to obey.

blessings,

Watchman

Amen to both of you...awestruck and you W.