If The Wages of Sin is Death, Then....

[ewq1938]

The answer is No. he would not have died,

Yes he would have died. Everything born and living in this world will die.

you must FIRST Die Spiritually in order to die physically

I don't agree with that.

. he died when he became sin for us or when he took sin into himself on the cross.

That was symbolic and did not cause his death. He was badly beaten before being crucified. He was unable to live as long as the others did which is why their legs were broken.

[Vanderhoven7]

If the wages of sin is death then....the Apostle Paul was right. Romans 6:23

Whether Jesus would have died naturally, whether there was anything in His nature that could have been tempted to sin, whether or not He could have sinned and failed His mission...are moot and perhaps fathomless points,...but because He passed every test before He was cut off unnaturally ...and the fact that He was raised to life, proves no sin was in Him and verifies that His righteousness is ours (for it was for our condition He died).

[andrew_no_one]

That was symbolic and did not cause his death. He was badly beaten before being crucified. He was unable to live as long as the others did which is why their legs were broken.

I don't agree with that at all. Christ took our punishment, God's wrath, instead of us. We're not saved because some Romans beat up Jesus but because His own Father crushed Him.

[divaD]

If these are the marks of our impending death...ie., the marks of sin, then the question "If Jesus lived to age 60 before his crucifixion, would he have had gray hair?" is a legitimate question. If he was without sin, then I assume his body would not have suffered the consequences of sin; his body would not tend towards death.

This doesn't make logical sense to me, or maybe I'm misunderstanding all together. Why do you seem to be concluding that becoming grey headed at 60 is a result of sin? First Jesus is a baby, right? From that point, as time went on, He grew into adulthood, right? This shows that He aged just like we do, even tho sin was not present anywhere in Him. Let me ask this then. If Jesus had not been crucified at the hands of others, would you conclude, that logically, He should still be physically alive even today?

[vanguard]

Yes he would have died. Everything born and living in this world will die.




I don't agree with that.





That was symbolic and did not cause his death. He was badly beaten before being crucified. He was unable to live as long as the others did which is why their legs were broken.

ONLY things that have sin on or in them dies. Adam would have never died if he had not sinned.


Sorry, that is the way things work, like it or not.


It was not symbolic AT ALL, his stripes were REAL, his BLOOD was REAL, his goin to hell for us was REAL, Jesus rising from the dead is REAL, his comming back is REAL.

[vanguard]

Remember Adam lived to be 930

[ewq1938]

I don't agree with that at all.

What part?

Christ took our punishment, God's wrath, instead of us. We're not saved because some Romans beat up Jesus but because His own Father crushed Him.

His father did not "crush him". Jesus allowed it to happen, and he was killed by the Roman's at the urging of the Jewish religious leaders.

[ewq1938]

ONLY things that have sin on or in them dies.

That's not true.

Adam would have never died if he had not sinned.

Unless he was kept alive somehow, he would have died with or without sinning. The flesh body isn't designed to live forever so God would have had to interfere somehow to keep it from aging and dying.

It was not symbolic AT ALL, his stripes were REAL, his BLOOD was REAL, his goin to hell for us was REAL, Jesus rising from the dead is REAL, his comming back is REAL.

Those things aren't in question. You said, "he died when he became sin for us or when he took sin into himself " and it is that which is not true. He didn't die because of being the sin sacrifice or symbolically taking sins upon himself. He died from his torture and the crucifixion.

[jeffweeder]

ONLY things that have sin on or in them dies. Adam would have never died if he had not sinned.

Seeing as death entered the human race through sin, you would have to be correct.

Through Adams seed ,death passes to all.
Jesus is the seed of the woman--Gods seed in the woman, and he would not have died either.

[watchinginawe]

It was not symbolic AT ALL, his stripes were REAL, his BLOOD was REAL, his goin to hell for us was REAL, Jesus rising from the dead is REAL, his comming back is REAL.

Yes, but was Jesus "being made sin" the cause of His death? What exactly does Paul mean by this expression?

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Many see this in the light you seem to offer, that Jesus was "transformed" into sin on the cross (and also other things, like cancer, sickness of every kind, etc.). However, it is possible to see Paul talking of Jesus' incarnation here. Compare the verse with that of Romans 8:

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

To me, Paul is saying very much the same thing in both of these passages, that Jesus in His incarnation took on "the law of sin and death" in humanity. (Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.)

As I offered before in the thread:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. ... 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

It was through Jesus' sinless life and death as a man. For Jesus to die, the incarnation was a must.

Here is a comparison of 2 Corinthians 5:21 and Romans 8:3-4 that might be helpful:

[The green will be from Romans 8:3-4]:

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he [God] hath made him to be sin [sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,] for us [and for sin], who knew no sin [condemned sin in the flesh]; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him [That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us].

If we accept that Paul was saying that Jesus was "transformed" into sin on the cross, then how do we make sense of Romans 8:1-4? I suggest that Romans 8:1-4 reveals quite a lot about how to view 2 Corinthians 5:21.

[vanguard]

Yes, but was Jesus "being made sin" the cause of His death? What exactly does Paul mean by this expression?

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Many see this in the light you seem to offer, that Jesus was "transformed" into sin on the cross (and also other things, like cancer, sickness of every kind, etc.). However, it is possible to see Paul talking of Jesus' incarnation here. Compare the verse with that of Romans 8:

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

To me, Paul is saying very much the same thing in both of these passages, that Jesus in His incarnation took on "the law of sin and death" in humanity. (Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.)

As I offered before in the thread:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. ... 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

It was through Jesus' sinless life and death as a man. For Jesus to die, the incarnation was a must.

Here is a comparison of 2 Corinthians 5:21 and Romans 8:3-4 that might be helpful:

[The green will be from Romans 8:3-4]:

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he [God] hath made him to be sin [sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,] for us [and for sin], who knew no sin [condemned sin in the flesh]; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him [That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us].

If we accept that Paul was saying that Jesus was "transformed" into sin on the cross, then how do we make sense of Romans 8:1-4? I suggest that Romans 8:1-4 reveals quite a lot about how to view 2 Corinthians 5:21.

this may help
Romans 8:1-4

J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)


The way out—new life in Christ

8 1-2 No condemnation now hangs over the head of those who are “in” Jesus Christ. For the new spiritual principle of life “in” Christ lifts me out of the old vicious circle of sin and death.

3-4 The Law never succeeded in producing righteousness—the failure was always the weakness of human nature. But God has met this by sending his own Son Jesus Christ to live in that human nature which causes the trouble. And, while Christ was actually taking upon himself the sins of men, God condemned that sinful nature. So that we are able to meet the Law’s requirements, so long as we are living no longer by the dictates of our sinful nature, but in obedience to the promptings of the Spirit.

[watchinginawe]

this may help
Romans 8:1-4

J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)


The way out—new life in Christ

8 1-2 No condemnation now hangs over the head of those who are “in” Jesus Christ. For the new spiritual principle of life “in” Christ lifts me out of the old vicious circle of sin and death.

3-4 The Law never succeeded in producing righteousness—the failure was always the weakness of human nature. But God has met this by sending his own Son Jesus Christ to live in that human nature which causes the trouble.

Looks all right to here. We (humanity) can not meet God's righteousness, but Jesus, as a man, does. Thus, Jesus "condemned sin in the flesh" in His sinless life and death on the cross. As I offered, Hebrews 2 speaks to this very directly. And again, in Hebrews 9:

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. ...26 ... but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Very clearly, when the author gets to "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many", the idea that this was done by the offering of Himself as a "sin offering", once and for all, is established. Jesus didn't become or transform into sin, rather He bore the sins of many in His death.

And, while Christ was actually taking upon himself the sins of men, God condemned that sinful nature.

I'm not sure how the author sees this, but he has written it pretty vague. If he means that Christ offered Himself for sin, then I agree. Said another way, a "sin offering" in His death. However, I don't see in Romans 8:3-4 any kind of concept of a "transformation into sin" on the cross that causes Jesus to die. For that matter, I don't see it in 2 Corinthians 5:21 either.

So that we are able to meet the Law’s requirements, so long as we are living no longer by the dictates of our sinful nature, but in obedience to the promptings of the Spirit.

Well, as I offered, one has to reconcile Romans 8:3-4 to 2 Corinthians 5:21. I would say this author came upon EXACTLY what I proposed (reconciling what Paul means), and just decided to write in what they needed to reconcile it. I don't have too much a problem with that, at least they handled it according to how they see it.

[WSGAC]

This doesn't make logical sense to me, or maybe I'm misunderstanding all together. Why do you seem to be concluding that becoming grey headed at 60 is a result of sin? First Jesus is a baby, right? From that point, as time went on, He grew into adulthood, right? This shows that He aged just like we do, even tho sin was not present anywhere in Him. Let me ask this then. If Jesus had not been crucified at the hands of others, would you conclude, that logically, He should still be physically alive even today?

If the wages of sin is death then I take that to mean that everyone of us eventually dies because of sin. It is not just spiritual but also physical...our bodies eventually succumb to the death process working in us. Grey hair points to this, for it is one mark of our body's change, of entropy.

Let me put it another way as a challenge: I would suggest that had Jesus been crucified at age 60 or even 80, his body would have been like any other 80 year old's body. He would have awoken in the morning with aching joints, possibly arthritic. He would have lost several if not many of his teeth. His eye sight and hearing would have diminished. Quite possibly he would have developed cataracts in his eyes and been unable to see. He would have developed the intestinal problems that come with age, and others as well. In a word Jesus would have had all the same physical problems that come to every aging man. His body would have moved toward death as our own bodies do. It is part of what it means to enter into broken flesh, sinless though he was. In other words, had he not been crucified Jesus would have died of old age in the same way all of us do.

[andrew_no_one]

His father did not "crush him"

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering...

[s4b4b47]

interestingly enough i asked someone this exact question a few days ago.

as a previous poster stated Jesus was Gods seed in the woman, and we know Jesus was fully God, but also he was fully human and was made sin for us.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

fully human means having Adams flawed DNA which was the result of sin, hence he became sin for us. However when Jesus died and was found to be without sin then death could not hold Him which reversed the curse due to His sacrifice for us that through one man (Adam) all will die, through Jesus we may all have eternal life.

through the centuries mans life expectancy has dwindled from 930 years to 120 years, it is in our DNA from Adam and so our flesh has been stained with this sin.

good post though, would be interested in hearing other peoples thoughts on this.