Biblical disctions for women in leadership?

[awestruckchild]

A person is wise to heed the counsel of the Spirit through whomever it comes. But we must remember that the Spirit is very peaceable and gentle....

Agreed. And He speaks softly but insistently. And when He tells you to speak, you speak what He gives you to speak.
Epi, can I ask you to explain further what you think the verse from Deut. you gave means?
And explain further about what you mean when you say "brings judgement forth on women?"

[episkopos]

Agreed. And He speaks softly but insistently. And when He tells you to speak, you speak what He gives you to speak.
Epi, can I ask you to explain further what you think the verse from Deut. you gave means?
And explain further about what you mean when you say "brings judgement forth on women?"

We tend to have a skewed view of the world. On the one hand we say...yes the world is full of evil...but then we write off much of it as "normal".

I raised the clothing issue to illustrate how easily the first step of disobedience creeps in. At first the next step is resisted...but sooner or later we will take that step. Like when Eve disobeyed the clear warning of God. It followed that Adam too would take that step.

Men and women have different but complementary roles in creation. A woman is to submit her own ideas to her husband. The place of the man is to properly represent the authority that comes from God. A woman is to help her husband do that. While this may seem arbitrary to many...there are spiritual reasons for this. God's ways are not usually expedient for men. They surpass his intellect....and even the intellect of women!!

The clothing issue shows that we are ok with one half of what God finds abominable. How long before we go the other half?

So it is with women who usurp authority over men...especially in regards to her own husband. It is like Eve all over again taking what is forbidden by God Himself. All that lacks is for men to go along with it.

As for the judgment on women issue...we are not called to be right in our arguments but obedient to Christ. How many have traded obedience for "rightness" in any given argument?

[awestruckchild]

We tend to have a skewed view of the world. On the one hand we say...yes the world is full of evil...but then we write off much of it as "normal".

I raised the clothing issue to illustrate how easily the first step of disobedience creeps in. At first the next step is resisted...but sooner or later we will take that step. Like when Eve disobeyed the clear warning of God. It followed that Adam too would take that step.

Men and women have different but complementary roles in creation. A woman is to submit her own ideas to her husband. The place of the man is to properly represent the authority that comes from God. A woman is to help her husband do that. While this may seem arbitrary to many...there are spiritual reasons for this. God's ways are not usually expedient for men. They surpass his intellect....and even the intellect of women!!

The clothing issue shows that we are ok with one half of what God finds abominable. How long before we go the other half?

So it is with women who usurp authority over men...especially in regards to her own husband. It is like Eve all over again taking what is forbidden by God Himself. All that lacks is for men to go along with it.

As for the judgment on women issue...we are not called to be right in our arguments but obedient to Christ. How many have traded obedience for "rightness" in any given argument?

I see.
Do you think it is wrong for a woman to wear a pair of pants...?
What I mean by that is, do you think God sees it as an abomination when I wear a pair of pants?

[episkopos]

I see.
Do you think it is wrong for a woman to wear a pair of pants...?
What I mean by that is, do you think God sees it as an abomination when I wear a pair of pants?

I don't know about the pants thing...are pants masculine??? I do see a woman in either an army uniform or police uniform as weird. There is a weirdness to it so that even the women themselves sometimes feel like they have to act tougher to get taken seriously. Why does God think it abominable to cross dress? Does society accepting it make it right? I know a man who wears dresses...he comes to our café sometimes...and even uses the women's washroom! He doesn't seem to think what he's doing is weird. How long for the rest of society to catch up?

But I do know that women normally want to wear the same authority as the man...that is the real point. It is the old..."the husband is the head but the wife is the neck that turns the head where she wants it to go." Now maybe that doesn't sound too much like Eve to some but...

I see that part of the spiritual growth of a woman in Christ is to "die to Eve." Let her go...

[episkopos]

It is a sad fact that most (almost all actually) Christian households that I know of are run by the wives. The men are just like shadows that seem to take refuge in the authority of their wives. Only a few willingly acknowledge this. The others seemingly have too much pride to do so.

It is usually easier for a "mother bear" to get away with her rebellion than for a "gorilla" on the man side of the equation. This is a societal dictate.

[awestruckchild]

Okay. Thanks for replying to me.
I do not concern myself too much with the literal meaning of the Word, but more so with the spiritual meaning and always considered this to be more of the woman as the church/body of Christ and how we have been born from Him and seek to control Him instead of follow and obey. As for the literal, I just sort of assumed we are to be different and not lord it over other believers but seek to serve them. I have always known you to teach the spirit of the Word and so this post stunned me a little bit, but we all need to be taught and guided to truth by the Spirit, and if this what He speaks to you, I guess you do well to speak it yourself, right? Thank you for talking with me.

[episkopos]

Okay. Thanks for replying to me.
I do not concern myself too much with the literal meaning of the Word, but more so with the spiritual meaning and always considered this to be more of the woman as the church/body of Christ and how we have been born from Him and seek to control Him instead of follow and obey. As for the literal, I just sort of assumed we are to be different and not lord it over other believers but seek to serve them. I have always known you to teach the spirit of the Word and so this post stunned me a little bit, but we all need to be taught and guided to truth by the Spirit, and if this what He speaks to you, I guess you do well to speak it yourself, right? Thank you for talking with me.

I am not seeking to overstress the point concerning dress. I am also looking for the deeper spiritual significance that is behind the truth of the verse. But I still think we do well to not discount a warning that is so clearly laid out. Discussion is always the preferred way...it is too easy to become polarized on a given issue.

Thank you for your reply!

[awestruckchild]

Hmm...
This post of yours brings up something I have wondered about...
When you say "the spirit behind the truth of the verse...
I have thought that when He said: the words I give you, they are spirit and truth, that spirit and truth are the same thing. I used to think the literal meaning of the words was the truth and the spiritual meaning of the words was spirit, but I believe the spirit of the words IS the same as the truth of the words.
In other words, I believe He was saying something along the lines of....the words I give to you, they are spirit and they are truth.
Yes, I agree that discussion is BEST!!
You have pulled me away from error many times by speaking the SPIRIT of the words when I was caught up in understanding them with my human understanding. I am sure you will help me many more times as well!

[andrew_no_one]

ahh the claws come out...no more peace and love...

I am not the one who holds doctrine that is in rebellion to GODS design..

1 tim 2

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

1 Cor 14

34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

God made a order for men and women just as he did for intercourse and marriage..

You rebel on one order you may as rebel on others.

Who would that women be to teach me anything on the order of doctrine when she ..herself .. is in rebellion to that very doctrine.

I need to apologize regarding how I responded to your comment, which I found to be distasteful. In the original subject matter I agree with you (as to the role of women in the church). I understand your usage of the premise you speculated to be comparative and instructive and I do not think it was your intent to cause offense. I was wrong to allow my zeal to become unrestrained and I ask that you forgive me.

[Colight]

I need to apologize regarding how I responded to your comment, which I found to be distasteful. In the original subject matter I agree with you (as to the role of women in the church). I understand your usage of the premise you speculated to be comparative and instructive and I do not think it was your intent to cause offense. I was wrong to allow my zeal to become unrestrained and I ask that you forgive me.

We are two guys in a sewer of life..both covered in poo...
Am I to be upset you flung some poo on me? I am all ready covered...

If you feel guilt or sin..please take that up with God...and fast...for only he can handle sin..

1 john 1
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I can only fling back more poo..so I am no help with sin or forgiveness..

( Your Cool ! )

[WITDNM]

And what does "pastoring" mean?

Shepherding or feeding.

[Boo]

Shepherding or feeding.

That is what I see also. That does not indicate much in the way of commanding. It is all about caring for, tending to, ministering to.

Our society has created a position called "pastor" who seems to be king of his domain. Not very scriptural from my view. It might be possible to identify the pastor who will be king by seeing how many elders are appointed within the church to actually run it. The fewer the elders, the more the king. A church which is a one-man band is easily led astray by the king.

This leadership question has to first be settled by asking "who leads the people of the church?" Should it really be the Pastor or should it be the elders?

[episkopos]

That is what I see also. That does not indicate much in the way of commanding. It is all about caring for, tending to, ministering to.

Our society has created a position called "pastor" who seems to be king of his domain. Not very scriptural from my view. It might be possible to identify the pastor who will be king by seeing how many elders are appointed within the church to actually run it. The fewer the elders, the more the king. A church which is a one-man band is easily led astray by the king.

This leadership question has to first be settled by asking "who leads the people of the church?" Should it really be the Pastor or should it be the elders?

The leader in the church is Christ...literally...through the Spirit.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Human leaders are to show an example of those who follow the Spirit. Sort of like...watch how I obey the leading of the Spirit and do likewise.

Women can do this as well...but without the teaching part...So women are called upon to be examples of obedience to Christ. Men can learn from women as they show the selfless gentleness of a true submission and trust in God.

So then ALL leaders in the church behave in the same way...whether male or female. By example!!!

[awestruckchild]

The leader in the church is Christ...literally...through the Spirit.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Human leaders are to show an example of those who follow the Spirit. Sort of like...watch how I obey the leading of the Spirit and do likewise.

Women can do this as well...but without the teaching part...So women are called upon to be examples of obedience to Christ. Men can learn from women as they show the selfless gentleness of a true submission and trust in God.

So then ALL leaders in the church behave in the same way...whether male or female. By example!!!

I am laughing and sighing at the same time!
This is such a huge problem for us, to allow the Word/Spirit to....guide us instead of our human understanding of the literal words (small "w"). We seem to....mix the two.
Are we talking about the human construct of A church with the building and people, or are we talking about the TRUE AND SPIRITUAL church which doesn't have walls and a roof?
Because I have to say, it doesn't matter to me one whig if a person is male or female - if the Spirit leaps in me at what they say, they have spoken truth, and therefore, they HAVE helped to teach me in some manner.
If two people are walking in the Spirit, truly walking in Him, they are both teaching and learning from each other. The human distinction of "sex" just falls away.
So there is a fracture in this insistence of yours, though I can't quite grasp what it is exactly, just....an attempt to meld back together what the Word/Spirit attempts to split asunder....but I do the same thing many times and in respect to many things. It is the struggle of each of us, I suppose.

[Boo]

Sometimes, our teaching from years past will blind us. Sometimes, a teaching tends to feed our egos and is accepted quite readily. Sometimes a teaching bruises our egos so we fight it.

If the Holy Spirit gifts someone with teaching or preaching, and that person displays the fruit of the Spirit and they teaching matches with scripture; I am certainly not going to accuse God by saying "Do you realize that this teacher is not a man?"