Once saved, always saved?

[HoboTone]

If this is a loose your salvation Scripture, then no. Verse 6 says it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them to repentance.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 NKJV

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more. --------
-----
This is one of my favorite passages in the Tanakh, it foreshadows the New Testament. God loved his people so much that he struck a new deal with them (B'rit chadachah) The Israelites throughout the entire Tanakh were the poster child of apostacy, constantly turning their back on God to worship idols; yet he never turned his back on them, and still has not to this day. I still don't see how or why he would treat us any different.

[Colight]

We can struggle with a particular sin and still come to Jesus and find comfort as we look to him....but one who has fallen away from that will never find forgiveness again, as Jesus is the only way.
Hope that makes sense.

Christ will always forgive sin..all one has to do is cite them and he will all always cleanse them.


1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There is NEVER a time he will not cleanse or forgive.

[Slug1]

Christ will always forgive sin..all one has to do is cite them and he will all always cleanse them.


1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There is NEVER a time he will not cleanse or forgive.

I agree!

So... what of the one who is so stubborn due to a hurt (for example), they refuse to turn back to God and confess/repent??

[Slug1]

Many people mix those passages about falling off the path of growth, to say that the foundation of salvation that is Christ is not secure. Christ provided the foundation... what we build on it is up to us.

People don't have to say anything about those passages to support anything... the scriptures are straight up and not mixed up at all. Its not about people "mixing" them up... its about people accepting them.

The context is about people "in Christ" but are falling away... let me give a quick example:

Rec 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[g] I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Here we have those who are "lukewarm". A person who has NEVER accepted Christ CANNOT even be "lukewarm". The scripture is straight up and cannot be mixed up as you say. Christ is gonna "VOMIT" them out!! A person who is NOT in Christ CANNOT be vomited out because they are NOT IN CHRIST for Him to WARN of such a thing. This scripture is FOR those in Christ.

That straight up scripture (Rev 3:16) is a warning to Christians... not anyone else.

So... no mix up at all, these scriptures are either accepted or not accepted. OSAS believers WILL NOT accept this scripture, nor ANY in the same context. Actually, OSAS believers are the ones mixing these warning scriptures up because they refuse to accept them as the straight up context in which the Bible presents them.

[jeffweeder]

Jeremiah 31:33-34 NKJV

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more. --------
-----
This is one of my favorite passages in the Tanakh, it foreshadows the New Testament. God loved his people so much that he struck a new deal with them (B'rit chadachah) The Israelites throughout the entire Tanakh were the poster child of apostacy, constantly turning their back on God to worship idols; yet he never turned his back on them, and still has not to this day. I still don't see how or why he would treat us any different.

OT---If we genuinely turn to God ( YAHWEH) for forgiveness, he will forgive us.
NT---If we look to Jesus for Gods forgiveness, he will forgive us. Fall away from Jesus, and it will be impossible to find Gods forgiveness.

[Colight]

People don't have to say anything about those passages to support anything... the scriptures are straight up and not mixed up at all. Its not about people "mixing" them up... its about people accepting them.

The context is about people "in Christ" but are falling away... let me give a quick example:

Rec 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[g] I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Here we have those who are "lukewarm". A person who has NEVER accepted Christ CANNOT even be "lukewarm". The scripture is straight up and cannot be mixed up as you say. Christ is gonna "VOMIT" them out!! A person who is NOT in Christ CANNOT be vomited out because they are NOT IN CHRIST for Him to WARN of such a thing. This scripture is FOR those in Christ.

So... no mix up at all, these scriptures are either accepted or not accepted. OSAS believers WILL NOT accept this scripture, nor ANY in the same context. Actually, OSAS believers are the ones mixing these warning scriptures up because they refuse to accept them as the straight up context in which the Bible presents them.

The spewing out can also refer to lack of blessing and a start of discipline.
Why are you so quick to remove the solid foundation that is Christ.
This is a church that is failing the prosperity test.
The discipline point supports my position, not your insecure salvation position.

rev 3 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

They are about to be spanked. This is a warning by the the knocking at the door.

[Slug1]

The spewing out can also refer to lack of blessing and a start of discipline.
Why are you so quick to remove the solid foundation that is Christ.
This is a church that is failing the prosperity test.
The discipline point supports my position, not your insecure salvation position.

rev 3 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

They are about to be spanked. This is a warning by the the knocking at the door.

If they don't repent... will Jesus act on His warning or not?

[Colight]

If they don't repent... will Jesus act on His warning or not?

Yeah he will flog them perhaps even the sin unto death... then in eternity they will be PEONS in heaven for ever.
Able to see the great blessings they could have had if they would have just stuck to the path.

[Slug1]

Yeah he will flog them perhaps even the sin unto death... then in eternity they will be PEONS in heaven for ever.
Able to see the great blessings they could have had if they would have just stuck to the path.

Peons? Scripture to support your points?

I ask for scripture because for a person to turn away INTO error will cause the "death" of their soul... not secure a lack of blessings or render them a peon in heaven.

Here's straight up scripture in support of this and in context that this scripture is concerning... Christians.

James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul[a] from death and cover a multitude of sins.

If OSAS was true... why the warning that they are TO BE turned BACK and if they are not turned back... what of their soul??? Only a person who turns back (confesses and repents) will have their soul saved as the scripture explains.

So... what of those who don't and remain in error having turned away from the truth in Christ???

[Colight]

Peons? Scripture to support your points?

Not all will get crowns and rewards....
Those who do not will be peons.
There will be NO EQUALITY in heaven.

I ask for scripture because for a person to turn away INTO error will cause the "death" of their soul... not secure a lack of blessings or render them a peon in heaven.

Here's straight up scripture in support of this and in context that this scripture is concerning... Christians.

Yes and as Christians their salvation is secure...

James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul[a] from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Yes it saves them from the horrible sin onto death where God pulls all stops to make their death as the most horrid thing a man can go thru.
They could be growing in their spiritual life rather than going thru that discipline, they could be a blessing to other believers rather than a test,...

If OSAS was true... why the warning that they are TO BE turned BACK and if they are not turned back... what of their soul??? Only a person who turns back (confesses and repents) will have their soul saved as the scripture explains

Not every time does scripture mention saved, is it referring to salvation, just like not every time it mentions water is it referring to baptizem.

There are other pitfalls in the christian life that being on the proper path can save us from.

So... what of those who don't and remain in error having turned away from the truth in Christ???

miserable lives finalized with Horrid deaths of the type that is full of bitterness and clinging on rather than a peaceful walk thru the death shadowed valley.... and eternal peons to boot.

[Slug1]

Not all will get crowns and rewards....
Those who do not will be peons.
There will be NO EQUALITY in heaven.

Where's the support scripture?

Yes and as Christians their salvation is secure...

Not what that scripture means so lets not mix it up and make it mean something it doesn't mean... OK?

Yes it saves them from the horrible sin onto death where God pulls all stops to make their death as the most horrid thing a man can go thru.
They could be growing in their spiritual life rather than going thru that discipline, they could be a blessing to other believers rather than a test,...

I don't know what you are talking about... it does seems you are actually mixing the meaning of scriptures up. What is... "to make their death as the most horrid thing a man can go thru"... mean??? And when you explain... please support with scripture so your explanation can be evaluated with the supportive scripture.

Not every time does scripture mention saved, is it referring to salvation, just like not every time it mentions water is it referring to baptizem.

This makes no sense and has nothing to do with what I stated.

There are other pitfalls in the christian life that being on the proper path can save us from.

Explain the meaning of this statement with supportive scripture... what are the "pitfalls" you speak of and are these pitfalls in scripture?

miserable lives finalized with Horrid deaths of the type that is full of bitterness and clinging on rather than a peaceful walk thru the death shadowed valley.... and eternal peons to boot.

This again... makes no sense without scripture in support! Seems to have nothing to do with the fact that unless the Christians in the context of the James 5 scriptures straight up shows us, unless they confess/repent which is the ACT of turning back.

Are you jet lagged again

[Eyelog]

Hey Eyelog, how ya doin? Question for this statement... who are those that the Bible is talking about, concerning the context of Apostasy?

Can a person who has NEVER been in Christ... fall into Apostasy? Can a person without the Holy Spirit EVER fall and if they can... fall from what????

Hello, Slug.

When I say a "true" apostasy, I mean a complete turning away from the Lord after having already been a "follower" or even a disciple of Him.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “ This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would [j]betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” 66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.

(a) Those who followed for only a while were with Christ but not in Christ.
(b) They fell away from following. They failed to persevere in following.
(c) People are not able to follow because they have the indwelling of the HS. They are able to follow because the Father "grants" it to them to come to Jesus. In turn, they are able to continue following because they believe and continue to believe and act consistent with that belief. Such is the heart of perseverance, though it is motivated by Hope in Christ.

This "following" business usually does not at first involve being born again, regenerated, Spirit indwelt or adopted into the Family of God. Rather, it is the beginning of a relationship with the Lord, in which He very well may allow some to participate in the Spirit, though they are not Spirit-indwelt.

Early on, Jesus makes the invitation:

27 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 “ Come to Me, all [z]who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is [aa]easy and My burden is light.”

But as the relationship with the Lord as teacher advances, He begins to require more and more of the follower, raising the bar of faith, commitment and sacrifice until he has raised it so far the follower has to be willing to give their very life in order to remain his follower or disciple.

For instance:

57 As they were going along the road, someone said to Him, “I will follow You wherever You go.” 58 And Jesus said to him, “The foxes have holes and the birds of the [ai]air have [aj]nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.” 59 And He said to another, “ Follow Me.” But he said, “Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father.” 60 But He said to him, “Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God.” 61 Another also said, “I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home.” 62 But Jesus said to him, “ No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” ... 23 And He was saying to them all, “ If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me. 24 For whoever wishes to save his [n]life will lose it, but whoever loses his [o]life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. 25 For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself? 26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.Luke 9.

Then Jesus ratchets it up to about the hilt:

25 Now [m]large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, 26 “ If anyone comes to Me, and does not [n]hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life[U][/U], he cannot be My disciple. 27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ ... 33 So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions. Luke 14.

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25 [B]He who loves his [a]life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. 26 If anyone [c]serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone [d]serves Me, the Father will honor him. John 12.

The one who is being saved will persevere through all of that. The one who is not will completely turn away from Christ, which is to apostasize.

The Parable of the Sower further illustrates this principle. It is only the one with the honest and good heart who perseveres in the face of the following:

A. • affliction or persecution because of the word, or temptation
B. • worry of the world, the deceitfulness of wealth, the desires for other things and the pleasures of this life

The follower who overcomes instead of turning away from Jesus hears the Word, understands it, accepts it, holds it fast and bears a multiplied crop of fruit with perseverance.

Those who don't bear fruit just plain turn away. They apostasize.

[Eyelog]

Heb 6
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

If this is a lose your salvation Scripture, then no. Verse 6 says it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them to repentance.

Well the Greek translated as "impossible" is Adunatos, which means without strength. i am unconvinced the writer is saying there is logical or actual impossibility of the person repenting. Rather, it seems he is saying the person themself is likely without strength to be brought back to repentance.

I think it is highly likely the Hebrews writer is saying that anyone who has had knowledge and supernatural involvement with God and yet "falls away" is a hopeless case, because they keep falling away, again and again after that, even if God does "renew them again to repentance." They are basically in a parapit, or trap they can't get out of. The Greek for fall away in Hebrews 6:6 is Parapipto, which means to fall to the side of or in or away from. It is a falling into an entrapment or snare, which may or may not be insurmountable.

Typically, those who fall away repeatedly are unwilling to come to repentance, because their heart is hardened.

Heb 6 is a stearn warning not to mess around with continued sin and unbelief. We have heard of people being "innoculated" against the Gospel or Christianity, through exposure to it, either in its true form or a perverted form. Either way, some people are always learning and never able to acknowledge the truth. 2 Tim 3:7. Still others are like the dog and its vomit, and the sow and its mud. With them, our godly wisdom, knowledge, love, kindness and grace are like pearls thrown to swine: they come back and trample us. Indeed, those who have fallen away often become enemies of the Cross and of Christ Himself. In that case, they are in for some very serious punishment upon their physical death.

Check Peter out, weighing in on this subject. I think 2 Peter 2 is a prime example of the "impossible" case:

[QUOTE2 Peter 2
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a [a]preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from [b]temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who [c] indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.

Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic [d]majesties, 11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in [e]the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their [f]deceptions, as they carouse with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; 15 forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.

17 These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the [g]black darkness has been reserved. 18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 [h]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “ A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”[/QUOTE]

Some might see a few different groups identified as the transgressors in 2 Pe 2. But the thrust of the passage is really the false teachers and persuasive individuals who practice unrighteousness, approve of others who do, and lead followers of Christ into doing the same. Though they blaspheme without knowledge, it is what knowledge they do have that most makes them worse off than they were when they were ignorant of Christ. God gives them over to follow their hearts' desires, and they become calloused and occluded. Indeed, this is how He has dealt with those who turn away from Him, or apostasize from Him, since the beginning. Romans 1.

Thus, Hebrews 6 is not a passage teaching that every little falling away cannot be remedied with repentance. However, the question with falling away and apostasy is whether the person seeks repentance at heart. Often times, the more we sin the less we desire repentance in our heart. The more we pull away or turn away from God and go it on our own, the more we try to avoid everything about Him. This makes it very difficult to come to renewed repentance., and it does incline God to give us over to our sins, and to allow our hearts to be hardened.

Whether God will give someone over to a hardened heart beyond repentance has to do with the faith and intentions of their heart to begin with, and the actions they take based on their heart's faith and intentions.

A compromised, double-minded life is not a sufficient apostasy to make it impossible for repentance, unless there is no desire to repent and/or no faith. Nor is a really bad sin, or even a continual sin in itself sufficient apostasy. In addition to the actions, the heart's faith and intentions must be examined -- not by us, but by God. For it is the faith in the heart which marks the born again believer, and from which honest and good intentions spring forth with obedience and good works in perseverance. This is why a true born again believer will never truly apostasize.

Indeed, a momentary lapse of faith, in which one is ashamed of Christ or His Words or where one denies Christ, as Peter did, is not this total apostasy I say would cause God to harden a born again person. But if that person lacks faith or a repentant heart, they surely won't find repentance, and will be hardened.

But the worst a person can do is reject Christ from a position of knowledge and experience, and then go falsely teach, influence or induce others to do the same. Killing Christians is one wrong, but forcing them to apostasize or die, or not be able to buy food, or not be able to work or go to school, etc., is worse, because it tempts us to give in just to live a halfway normal life. But the worst is to take our minds captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy (1 Cor 1) which persuades us our hope in Christ is in vain. Certainly, getting believers caught up in sin, as our national media and TV/Movie programming overtly seeks to do, is one of the methods to make the deceptive philosphies of this age appealing. After all, from a hardened heart, it is hard to have eyes to see and ears to hear, hence the seed of the Word that landed on the trampled path and so was never planted in the heart because it wasn't understood, because the soil was hard. (Parable of the Sower, Mt 13, Mk 4, Lu 8).

As far as I am concerned, it is a great faith statement that I know the child sex traffickers and their clientele and pornographers, all the child molesters and rapists and pimps and all those who have influenced our media to destroy the morality of the people of the United States over the past 50+ years, and stolen the innocence of generations, are those "for whom the black darkness has been reserved." 2 Peter 2:17. For the Lord will not long wait to avenge.

Deuteronomy 13:5
5 "But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.

He cries out to those who have been deceived into choosing evil:

Jeremiah 3:2222 Return , ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

But I digress. All I really wanted to say is don't worry about Heb 6:6 regarding is a backslider or fallen away or even turned away person who has a heart for repertance and faith in the LOrd. He or she can be brought to repentance and renewed fellowship per 1 Jn 1, or he or she can be born again, if that has not occurred already.

[Colight]

Where's the support scripture?

IF Paul state run that you may win , then it is logical that some may not run and lose.

Not what that scripture means so lets not mix it up and make it mean something it doesn't mean... OK?

I don't know what you are talking about... it does seems you are actually mixing the meaning of scriptures up. What is... "to make their death as the most horrid thing a man can go thru"... mean??? And when you explain... please support with scripture so your explanation can be evaluated with the supportive scripture.

1 Corinthians 5:
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus

Sin unto death, the destruction of the flesh, yet the spirit is secure..

This makes no sense and has nothing to do with what I stated.

Explain the meaning of this statement with supportive scripture... what are the "pitfalls" you speak of and are these pitfalls in scripture?

Pitfalls such as serving the carnal rather than divine dynasphere

Eight Gates of The Divine Dynasphere

1. Yieldedness to the indwelling Holy Spirit (mental attitude of surrender).

2. Basic Christian modus operandi (rebound method, faith rest drill, objectivity vs.
subjectivity).

3. Enforced and genuine humility (submission to legitimate authority).

1. Enforced humility:

•Purpose: give child a chance to succeed in life after he leaves home.
• Begins at home.
Parents use discipline to teach their children humility

.

2. Genuine humility:
originates from the perception of doctrine under the three stages:

♦ reception, the gnosis stage.
♦ retention, the epignosis stage.
♦ recall, the application of doctrine to all experiences stage.
absolutely essential for advance in the plan of God.
provides the teachability necessary for the inculcation of doctrine.

4. The Momentum Gate

5. Motivational virtue toward God, i.e., personal love for God.

6. Functional virtue toward man and circumstances, i.e., impersonal love for all mankind.

7. Passing momentum tests; the momentum gate.

8. Spiritual maturity.

This again... makes no sense without scripture in support! Seems to have nothing to do with the fact that unless the Christians in the context of the James 5 scriptures straight up shows us, unless they confess/repent which is the ACT of turning back.

Are you jet lagged again

I wish..instead this travel sickness is flogging me.
There are unnatural things my body is doing.. very unnatural,

[Eyelog]

Peons? Scripture to support your points?

I ask for scripture because for a person to turn away INTO error will cause the "death" of their soul... not secure a lack of blessings or render them a peon in heaven.

Here's straight up scripture in support of this and in context that this scripture is concerning... Christians.

James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul[a] from death and cover a multitude of sins.

If OSAS was true... why the warning that they are TO BE turned BACK and if they are not turned back... what of their soul??? Only a person who turns back (confesses and repents) will have their soul saved as the scripture explains.

So... what of those who don't and remain in error having turned away from the truth in Christ???

Exactly. The failure to seek repentance is an example of the failure to persevere in the faith. In that case, if the consequence of failing to repent is that the person's soul will be thrown into hell (the second death), then that must mean the person is an apostate, which in my thinking means they were never saved to begin with, but were just another follower of Jesus who fell away. (otherwise, if he were a born again believer, hell would not be a potential punishment,

You chose a great citaton to discuss. One can put a lot of creedance in the idea that every person or "brother" James wrote to was a born again believer. However, to assume there were not followers of Christ in the church James wrote to, who were not born again though they and/or everyone else thought they were, is speculaton, and one with poor odds, at that.

On the other hand, Colight comments that the death there may only be physical, and not a sentence to hell. This could be a valid point, looking at the Greek term for death here, thanatos. In that case, if his sin results only in physical death, the guy must have been guilty of a "sin unto death," ... such as ... Have some examples?