Once saved, always saved?

[Slug1]

The race is not salvation..... the race is maturity.
Very few will cross the finish line.
A very few.

Scriptural support???

[Slug1]

You seem to have it all worked out and are on a good roll. Dont let me stop yah.

Side note: Why is it insecure salvation is a belief that is also shared today by the tongues believers today? Have you always been a insecurisit?

Don't change the topic... let's remain focused on the OSAS mixed up beliefs.

[Colight]

Scriptural support???

Not every one on the tracks gets a prize.. therefore run so that you may attain.

1 Corinthians 9
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

[Eyelog]

See... to me, this is a main problem with those who are fully OSAS believers and a way they cop out of the truth. It's too easy to say a person was not "really" in Christ and write them off when they turn away into error. I will even be so bold in stating that this is satan's plan OF that false doctrine... to get Christians to believe a person was never "really" in Christ and so they don't "really" put forth the full effort to turn them back as the James 5 scriptures INSTRUCT us to do.

If this was true (OSAS doctrine stating that a person in Christ yet they turn to error was NEVER really saved)... then Jesus would never go after that ONE sheep who turned away from the flock. He'd just wait for the end and the sheep would be there anyway to be put back in the flock.

So OSAS has this mixed up in 2 ways... 1) They believe the person was NEVER really in the flock OR 2) They believe there is no need for Jesus to search after any who turn away from the flock because they are permanently saved and don't need to remain in the flock and CAN turn away and STILL finish the race.

Both of these mixed up beliefs will cause Christians who are in the OSAS camp, to NOT fully help those who have turned away and THAT is satan's plan of that doctrine.

So no... a person in Christ but turns away... they will be judged as such if they don't turn back to Jesus when He seeks them and He will pursue them till their dying day letting them know His love is always open to them should they confess and repent and turn back to Him. He does this through the steadfast Christians interceeding for the ONE who turned to error. He does this through steadfast Christians who will minister and help those who have turned away into error. Those steadfast Christians who NOT ONCE, think that the Christian who turned to error, maybe wasn't really in Christ. However, if the one who's turned away into error is so stubborn due to a hurtful circumstance... and die before turning back to Christ so He can return them to the flock and due to not turning back, continue to run OFF the path and AWAY from the flock they once were a part of... then they will be judged as such. Based on the James 5 scriptures, the result of their turning away into error will be the death of their soul.

OSAS mixes this all up to FIT a false doctrine they choose to believe.

Hello again, Slug.

I am not following how believers and Jesus lack the motivation, let alone the duty, to not go after a member of the flock who falls away, no matter what your view of OSAS might be.

It is very hard to discern who has arrived as a born again believer and who is still only following. (Obviously, the born again continue to follow and are disciples, but they are qualitatively different from those who only follow and are students of Christ). I just explained this point in some detail in my last post.

So, believers don't consider if the person is born again before they go out to call them back to the flock or to Christ, etc. Jesus knows the truth, but He doesn't stop His perpetual process during the church age of calling, drawing and waiting, "not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9.

But I agree with you that most believers, and even most pastors, fail to go after the wandering sheep. That's because they are all hired hands, and don't love the sheep, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with OSAS. See the Parable of the Good Shepherd, especially John 10:11 “ I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. But see the handing off of this obligation of the Good Shepherd to Peter at John 21:16-17.

Peter is not just commanded to tend the sheep, but to love them.

But, of course, Jesus' sheep hear and know His voice. Does this mean that Christ does not call the lost or draw them to Himself? Of course not. Obvious Cites.

So, Slug, your fears are without warrant as to the motive to call back the wayward believer, let alone the wayward follower, let alone calling the unbeliever in general. OSAS does not destroy motives nor commands. The complacency you see is because most church attendees are followers only, and the shepherds are not exhorting the flock to go after itself, the Shepherd and his staff and agenda are not geared toward going after the sheep in many cases, and frankly, after some do go after them, and they are rebuffed, there is a human tendency to give up on people, to dismiss them, and check them off our list, when we should be praying and seeking wise counsel from the Lord on how best to work in the Spirit to help the individual.

But you would get the idea believers hate unbelievers, by the way we tend to ignore them and expect them to be rolled under by Satan, the culture and the wt of their own flesh. This is not a doctrinal problem, but a heart and interests of Christ problem.

Philippians 2:21
For everyone looks out for his own interests, not those of Jesus Christ.

So far as OSAS being a plot of Satan, and recognizing what Scripture I just showed below about followers and the process of becoming a more committed disciple and people falling away, and this mirroring the parable of the Sower of the Seed, I think it would be important to see a list of reasons why this perseverance of the Saints view of OSAS is either contrary to good doctrine (as you implied about not going after the stray sheep), or contrary to Scripture. That would help me the most in seeing the truth.

[Colight]

Don't change the topic... let's remain focused on the OSAS mixed up beliefs.

It is interesting that you used to be anti-tongues..
I wonder if you also used to be OSAS...

[Eyelog]

King Saul...
Died the sin onto death yet joined Samuel in paradise,

1 Sam 28
17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Saul was to be with Samuel in Paradise, yet he would face the sin onto death before that would occur..

Excellent example of the sin unto death occurring and the person's soul still not going to hell or the lake of fire, etc. So, which if Saul's sins do you think finally done him in, just seeking the medium, or was it a combo or maybe even something all the way back at the beginning, like when he gave the sacrifice without Samuel and thereby lost his throne?

[Eyelog]

The finish line is not salvation.
The finish line is maturity,

To even be on the track is salvation,.a non-believer can not run that race.

I think the goal or target is maturity, which is to attain to the fullness of the stature of Christ Eph 4.

But the finish line must be the end of our life on earth. when paul says he made it, he means he's about to get to the literal end of his life, I think.

You see Paul says you have to play according to the rules. he means it's all about how you play the game of life. For ALL of us reach the finish line, but there is a big question of whether we finish in front of or behind our adversary, the evil one. Whether we will attain to the characgter of christ in this lifetime is fully up for grabs, and it is this that each of us should zealously pursue, throwing off all that hinders. But most of us won't even walk it, let alone run toward that maturation, and most of us will finsih way behyind satan.

But Jesus said to Him, get thee behind me, ... you have in mind the things of man ....

[Bandit]

If this is a loose your salvation Scripture, then no. [It is not possible to come back.] Verse 6 [Heb. 6:6] says it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them to repentance.

Actually, this verse does not say it is impossible for a person who has fallen away to come back to the faith. What the Greek indicates is that it is imposible for you to bring such a person back to repentance. (You can't renew them.) Just like with the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15), the person must come to their senses on their own. This is not something you can do for them. This person was fully enlightened with the knowledge of the gospel, so they understand what the gospel demands (a repentant heart), but at this point in time, they are living in open rebellion and are unwilling to repent. There is nothing you can do in this case. They fully know what to do, but are refusing to do it. So this verse does not mean that such persons can't come to their senses and repent and be restored, for just like the prodigal son, they can come to his senses, repent, and be restored.

[Colight]

Excellent example of the sin unto death occurring and the person's soul still not going to hell or the lake of fire, etc. So, which if Saul's sins do you think finally done him in, just seeking the medium, or was it a combo or maybe even something all the way back at the beginning, like when he gave the sacrifice without Samuel and thereby lost his throne?

What knocked Saul out of the loop was not killing when God ordered it.
This attitude does not really fit well in Holy Roller circles, but then again... God is not a Holy Roller.

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.


Extra Credit...
What discipline has God put on us, for NOT destroying some evil people

[Slug1]

Not every one on the tracks gets a prize.. therefore run so that you may attain.

1 Corinthians 9
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

Based on your angle of reasoning, this means that those Christians who accept Christ and are a babe in Christ and happen to be killed in a car wreck later in the day... failed to achieve the "prize" of maturity.

So what does this have to do either FOR or AGAINST... OSAS?

Are you trying to turn this thread off the path of discussing... OSAS

That scripture is telling us that NO ONE can be fully mature (MAY OBTAIN) but that we are TO BE always STRIVING... to be mature.

[Colight]

Actually, this verse does not say it is impossible for a person who has fallen away to come back to the faith. What the Greek indicates is that it is imposible for you to bring such a person back to repentance. (You can't renew them.) Just like with the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15), the person must come to their senses on their own. This is not something you can do for them. This person was fully enlightened with the knowledge of the gospel, so they understand what the gospel demands (a repentant heart), but at this point in time, they are living in open rebellion and are unwilling to repent. There is nothing you can do in this case. They fully know what to do, but are refusing to do it. So this verse does not mean that such persons can't come to their senses and repent and be restored, for just like the prodigal son, they can come to his senses, repent, and be restored.

Salvation is not how one handles returning.
Since salvation is a one time thing.
For the believer confession is how they deal with sin in their life.

( 1 john 1:9 ) 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This verse is how a wayward believer gets back in the fold.. therefore re-dedication ceremonies are not biblical.
Confess those sins to God and get back into the race.

[Colight]

Based on your angle of reasoning, this means that those Christians who accept Christ and are a babe in Christ and happen to be killed in a car wreck later in the day... failed to achieve the "prize" of maturity.

Correct.. God harvests them when they are ripe.
Since God controls life, that was the BEST time for them to be harvested.

So what does this have to do either FOR or AGAINST... OSAS?

You can not build on the foundation of Christ if the foundation is not secure.

Are you trying to turn this thread off the path of discussing... OSAS

You know me I like to go where few others dare to ...

That scripture is telling us that NO ONE can be fully mature (MAY OBTAIN) but that we are TO BE always STRIVING... to be mature.

I disagree, Paul knew his race was won.

2 tim 4
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;
8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

What greater blessing than before death to know that you have attained.

[Eyelog]

What knocked Saul out of the loop was not killing when God ordered it.
This attitude does not really fit well in Holy Roller circles, but then again... God is not a Holy Roller.

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.


Extra Credit...
What discipline has God put on us, for NOT destroying some evil people

Excellent, you deserve all the credit, ... go dude!

[Colight]

I think the goal or target is maturity, which is to attain to the fullness of the stature of Christ Eph 4.

But the finish line must be the end of our life on earth. when paul says he made it, he means he's about to get to the literal end of his life, I think.

You see Paul says you have to play according to the rules. he means it's all about how you play the game of life. For ALL of us reach the finish line, but there is a big question of whether we finish in front of or behind our adversary, the evil one. Whether we will attain to the characgter of christ in this lifetime is fully up for grabs, and it is this that each of us should zealously pursue, throwing off all that hinders. But most of us won't even walk it, let alone run toward that maturation, and most of us will finsih way behyind satan.

But Jesus said to Him, get thee behind me, ... you have in mind the things of man ....

God has blessing all ready preplanned for us in eternity, they are there waiting for us to claim them.
Those who do not attain will have those blessings on display, that for eternity they can see what they could have had.
I peter 1
4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you

Therefore if these are reserved for us.. then salvation is secure.. God even has our booty laid out for us to claim.

[Bandit]

...Since salvation is a one time thing...

What you are doing here is assuming what you claim. If salvation is a one-time thing, then yes, OSAS is true. But that is the whole OSAS question, isn't it? Is salvation simply a one-time thing (the single decision of a single moment)?