Once saved, always saved?

[Slug1]

Correct.. God harvests them when they are ripe.
Since God controls life, that was the BEST time for them to be harvested.

While I am not going to disagree with this statement... it DOES counter all you have already stated about maturity.

Seems you want us to enter into stormy seas with you and you expect us to be beat from wave to wave like your statements are??

You can not build on the foundation of Christ if the foundation is not secure.

Christ's foundation is always secure. For those who turn off it... He pursues and offers to lead them back to where the foundation is secure.

You know me I like to go where few others dare to ...

which is the problem actually and things are mixed up.

I disagree, Paul knew his race was won.

2 tim 4
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;
8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

What greater blessing than before death to know that you have attained.

So can a person who is in Christ yet turned away to error (James 5 scriptures)... say the same as Paul?

If they can't... then the falseness of OSAS is revealed.

[Colight]

What you are doing here is assuming what you claim. If salvation is a one-time thing, then yes, OSAS is true. But that is the whole OSAS question, isn't it? Is salvation simply a one-time thing (the single decision of a single moment)?

John 3
4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water ( Birth of the flesh) and the Spirit ( birth of the spirit) he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Birth is a one time irreversible process...it is something that the person being born has no control over.

[Eyelog]

What you are doing here is assuming what you claim. If salvation is a one-time thing, then yes, OSAS is true. But that is the whole OSAS question, isn't it? Is salvation simply a one-time thing (the single decision of a single moment)?

On the other hand, if OSAS is not true, and one can be a born again apostate, isn't the risk greater? Easy believism is highly deceptive. Tell someone they are saved forever, as if you know, and you may ruin them forever. Tell someone they can gain and lose their status in Christ repeatedly, and they do the same thing, thinking when they believe and follow the straight and narrow a bit, they have regained what they lost when they apostasized and stopped obeying altogether. It's an easy on again and off again, based on the same easy believism.

Frankly, I think both views conflate a number of issues:

1. What is, and what gives us accurate Assurance of salvation and false assurance of salvation?
2. What is "saving faith"?
3. What is the "perseverance of the Saints and the call to overcoming made by Jesus in Revelation?
4. What is the role of practical sanctification in whether I have saving faith or have lost it?
5. What is irrevocable once bestowed? When is this thing bestowed? E.g., the Redemption, which is promised but not delivered until Jesus returns, yet our doctrine gives us no clue we oughta long for it. How many really long for the return of Jesus? Does our view comport with longing for His return, or feeling 'good to go,' now we can seek to live the good life?
6. What is the process of attaining to saving faith, and what has it to do with Jesus' discipleship process?
7. What role does the fact we will be judged for every deed done in the body, whether good or bad and each will receive his appropriate recompense have to do with the security of salvation, treasure in heaven, and what this whole salvation and sanctification scheme is intended by God to accomplish in anthropos?

All of these lovelies, and certainly several more, must be concurrently held in the air during this theological juggling session we call the question of eternal security, when it ought to be called the question of how we will ever get a clue and get on the same page and actually be the body of Christ.

[Colight]

While I am not going to disagree with this statement... it DOES counter all you have already stated about maturity.

Seems you want us to enter into stormy seas with you and you expect us to be beat from wave to wave like your statements are??

The only storm is that of the insecure salvation..for it does NOT build on the rock that is Christ.
Matt 7
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall."

Christ's foundation is always secure. For those who turn off it... He pursues and offers to lead them back to where the foundation is secure.

Spiritual building is always done on the foundation..
It can be wood hay or it can be of solid stone.

1 Cor 3
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, ( this is our labor )
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

So if some one falls away they are building with wood and hay.
When tested it will be burned up and that time they spent building it would be a waste.

which is the problem actually and things are mixed up.

Not at all, a little chaos gets to the real motivations of why people post what they do.

So can a person who is in Christ yet turned away to error (James 5 scriptures)... say the same as Paul?

They can say what ever they wish, however Paul was spirit filled as he wrote what he wrote, therefore it was truth with him.

If they can't... then the falseness of OSAS is revealed.

It is not false to say many will enter heaven with out reward..for they did not complete the course.

[Colight]

7. What role does the fact we will be judged for every deed done in the body, whether good or bad and each will receive his appropriate recompense have to do with the security of salvation, treasure in heaven, and what this whole salvation and sanctification scheme is intended by God to accomplish in anthropos?

A side note the holly rollers despise..
We are never judged in eternity for our sin.
They love the idea of some fortificator burning in hell fire while they in their arrogance and self righteousness get a free pass.
( Notice how the sins of arrogance and self righteousness are never a issue it is only fornication, homosexuality and other overt sins )
Christ has all ready been judged for all sin. ( Even arrogance and self righteousness )

There fore there is no excuse to be held back, lay aside every sin and get with the race.

Hebrews 12
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Stop focusing on sin and focus on what is before us..
Our focus is to be on Christ... not sin

[Bandit]

What you are doing here is assuming what you claim. If salvation is a one-time thing, then yes, OSAS is true. But that is the whole OSAS question, isn't it? Is salvation simply a one-time thing (the single decision of a single moment)?

John 3
4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water ( Birth of the flesh) and the Spirit ( birth of the spirit) he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Birth is a one time irreversible process...it is something that the person being born has no control over.

And what you are doing here is making the same error Nicodemus did when Jesus spoke to him: you are assuming that spiritual birth is identical to physical birth.

[BroRog]

Fall away from what then?

A person who is never in Christ, can NEVER fall away.

But my point is that the term "apostasy" doesn't refer to falling away from being "in Christ." In fact, it is a mistaken notion that the Greek word "apostasia" means "fall away". It doesn't. The word refers to an open rebellion against authority. It just so happens that English Speakers have adopted the word and given it our own connotation. The actual Greek word that means "to fall away" is "skandalizomai", which has three or four main meanings, one of which refers to those who cease believing.

I would say that it's obviously not possible to cease believing if one hasn't first believed. But if we want to understand and make sense of what Jesus and the Apostles were saying, and come to the truth about the OSAS doctrine, we need to bear in mind that, contrary to 20th Century American tradition, a person is NOT saved immediately after he or she believes. Christians today need to jettison the doctrine we inherited from American Evangelists who taught us that a person is saved immediately upon making "the decision." If I read my Bible correctly, such a doctrine is not true and comes from a misunderstanding and mischaracterization of passages like Romans 10:9-10.

Then why are MANY scriptures concerning "falling away," in the context of those who had accepted Christ?

Just as I say, there is NO guarantee of immediate salvation after confession. The Apostles were warning believers to keep on believing because in their mind it was possible that such a person might "skandalizomai", i.e. cease believing. Contrary to what we have been told, Confession and Repentance is NO guarantee of salvation. Rather, the apostles taught us that God is saving those who confess and keep on believing. Jesus taught the same thing.

It is my contention, that a person in Christ will never fall away, but please understand that I understand the phrase "in Christ" to be a technical term Paul invented and wrote in Romans 8 to describe people who would never fall away. In Romans 8, Paul is describing folks for whom God has guaranteed salvation. And in THAT context, the phrase "in Christ" is a technical term that roughly means "those who will not ever fall away." It isn't that they CAN'T fall away. They can. BUT they won't, and Paul knows they won't for the reasons he states.

[Eyelog]

And what you are doing here is making the same error Nicodemus did when Jesus spoke to him: you are assuming that spiritual birth is identical to physical birth.

Fair enough about assumpions, of course. But what's the answer? This is one of the issues I list which we need to get clear and keep clear while we deal with all the rest (AND POSSIBLY OTHERS) at the same time.

[Bandit]

What you are doing here is assuming what you claim. If salvation is a one-time thing, then yes, OSAS is true. But that is the whole OSAS question, isn't it? Is salvation simply a one-time thing (the single decision of a single moment)?

On the other hand, if OSAS is not true, and one can be a born again apostate, isn't the risk greater? Easy believism is highly deceptive. Tell someone they are saved forever, as if you know, and you may ruin them forever. Tell someone they can gain and lose their status in Christ repeatedly, and they do the same thing, thinking when they believe and follow the straight and narrow a bit, they have regained what they lost when they apostasized and stopped obeying altogether. It's an easy on again and off again, based on the same easy believism.

Frankly, I think both views conflate a number of issues:

...

So when and where did I say the undelined? These are your words, not mine, so you are errecting a strawman argument, are you not?

[BroRog]

Yes and Yes.

The warning passages are to make sure we are on the hard and narrow way, not the broad way. Both ways are people who think they are going to the same place, only the narrow, constricted way is the right way. I would venture to say most american church-goers are on the broad way.

It's true and to be expected. Jesus said there would be both wheat and tares until he returns.

[Eyelog]

But my point is that the term "apostasy" doesn't refer to falling away from being "in Christ." In fact, it is a mistaken notion that the Greek word "apostasia" means "fall away". It doesn't. The word refers to an open rebellion against authority. It just so happens that English Speakers have adopted the word and given it our own connotation. The actual Greek word that means "to fall away" is "skandalizomai", which has three or four main meanings, one of which refers to those who cease believing.

I would say that it's obviously not possible to cease believing if one hasn't first believed. But if we want to understand and make sense of what Jesus and the Apostles were saying, and come to the truth about the OSAS doctrine, we need to bear in mind that, contrary to 20th Century American tradition, a person is NOT saved immediately after he or she believes. Christians today need to jettison the doctrine we inherited from American Evangelists who taught us that a person is saved immediately upon making "the decision." If I read my Bible correctly, such a doctrine is not true and comes from a misunderstanding and mischaracterization of passages like Romans 10:9-10.

Just as I say, there is NO guarantee of immediate salvation after confession. The Apostles were warning believers to keep on believing because in their mind it was possible that such a person might "skandalizomai", i.e. cease believing. Contrary to what we have been told, Confession and Repentance is NO guarantee of salvation. Rather, the apostles taught us that God is saving those who confess and keep on believing. Jesus taught the same thing.

It is my contention, that a person in Christ will never fall away, but please understand that I understand the phrase "in Christ" to be a technical term Paul invented and wrote in Romans 8 to describe people who would never fall away. In Romans 8, Paul is describing folks for whom God has guaranteed salvation. And in THAT context, the phrase "in Christ" is a technical term that roughly means "those who will not ever fall away." It isn't that they CAN'T fall away. They can. BUT they won't, and Paul knows they won't for the reasons he states.

I agree with about all you say here, BroRog, and feel it helps support the position I have been advocating in this thread. Indeed, you lead us to the door of the Perseverance of the Saints/the call to Overcoming.

[Eyelog]

So when and where did I say the undelined? These are your words, not mine, so you are errecting a strawman argument, are you not?

No, Bandit, I did not at all mean to imply you said that.

Second, I am making a point of comparison between the two general views and then laying out so many issues we have to deal with at the same time if we are to coherently treat this subject.

Sorry you thought I was trying to represent your view or even argue with it. Just making a comparison. (You would know if I was on the argumentative offensive). By the way, i liked some of your early points as well.

[Bandit]

And what you are doing here is making the same error Nicodemus did when Jesus spoke to him: you are assuming that spiritual birth is identical to physical birth.

Fair enough about assumpions, of course. But what's the answer? This is one of the issues I list which we need to get clear and keep clear while we deal with all the rest (AND POSSIBLY OTHERS) at the same time.

So perhaps we agree that there are both similarities and differences between spiritual and physical birth. In both cases one is born (or becomes alive) in some new sense, and both become a part of something that they previously were not - a family. (But do notice that what is born physically was already physically alive, and so was, in some sense, already a part of the physical family.)

But can't what is physically born physically die? Likewise, can't what was born spiritually die spiritually? But can't God regenerate both if He so chooses? So then, just as God can bring back to life that which has physically died, He can also bring back to life that which spiritually died. What we need to understand is what is required for one to be spiritually born, what may later cause spiritual death, and what may be required for God to give spiritual life once again to that which spiritually died. Do you agree?

[Bandit]

No, Bandit, I did not at all mean to imply you said that.

Second, I am making a point of comparison between the two general views and then laying out so many issues we have to deal with at the same time if we are to coherently treat this subject.

Sorry you thought I was trying to represent your view or even argue with it. Just making a comparison. (You would know if I was on the argumentative offensive). By the way, i liked some of your early points as well.

Okay, that is fair enough. But let's not make one of the two general views into the view that one may easily pass back and forth repeatedly and incessantly between salvation and condemnation. (And it may be fair to say that considering just two views to be too simplistic.) One general view says that one can't walk away from salvation (and if one could, they could not come back). The other general view is that one can walk away from salvation, but that restoration is possible. But let's avoid making this 2nd view into one which says that a person can and does repeatedly pass back and forth between the states of salvation and condemnation. I won't defend such a view.

[Eyelog]

So perhaps we agree that there are both similarities and differences between spiritual and physical birth. In both cases one is born (or becomes alive) in some new sense, and both become a part of something that they previously were not - a family. (But do notice that what is born physically was already physically alive, and so was, in some sense, already a part of the physical family.)

But can't what is physically born physically die? Likewise, can't what was born spiritually die spiritually? But can't God regenerate both if He so chooses? So then, just as God can bring back to life that which has physically died, He can also bring back to life that which spiritually died. What we need to understand is what is required for one to be spiritually born, what may later cause spiritual death, and what may be required for God to give spiritual life once again to that which spiritually died. Do you agree?

Sounds like a good, analytical approach. Indeed, any image used by Jesus has its limitations in how far it is to go. Born of the Spirit and born of water. Seems He is largely speaking about the sources of the conditions bestowed, just as much as those outcomes themselves. is there a correlate use of the born stuff elsewhere in scripture, or an alternative image for the same thing? Seems it is possible to see multiple images for the same thing, but each image has its limitatons in how far it implies the meaning intended. generally, the images or aphorisms are used as similies or analogies to convey certain concepts, but they don't always express concepts not generally referred to in the Scrdipture. For example, take on jesus' yoke. How much background information about yokes will apply? What is that yoke? His teaching, his commands, his Spirit, his 'wonderful plan for your life?' Well he puts a burden on us that is light, so we can conclude .... Now, what other images apply to what the taking on and walking in the yoke refers to? So we go search out those images, like offering of the members to righteousness, or offering our body a living sacrifice. Ah, yes. Walking in the Spirit, by faith, by the Word, in His commands and statutes, but walking, walking, walking. Oops. Now, Paul wants us to run the race. Same meaninging, but a new image? or is this something entirely different? tough calls. takes study.

But what is the correlate imagery for born of the Spirit and born of water?