Once saved, always saved?

[Eyelog]

I believe OSAS teaches this, yes. If we were more accurate with our acronyms, we would say, OBAS: that is, Once Believed Always Saved. I don't think OBAS is biblical, but that seems to be the meaning behind the OSAS acronym.

I noticed that the Wikipedia article on OSAS has unfortunately lumped the Calvinistic doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints with OSAS, which are actually two different issues entirely. As I understand it, though, you have rightly characterized the OSAS position.

I don't think those issues are at all unrelated, but integrally tied together, with or without Calvinists of every color and stripe chiming in.

[Eyelog]

The same people who say that the wheat will be judged as wheat because they were ONCE wheat, are the same people who say that a person becomes wheat as soon as they make a confession of faith. And I don't think either doctrine is Biblical. Such evangelists are so firmly convinced in their own minds that God will save everyone who makes "the decision" and they go to great lengths, even using manipulative marketing techniques to cajole people into the kingdom. Give credit to Billy Graham who at least encouraged people to find a home church and someone to guide them. Confession alone is not enough. A person must believe and keep on believing.

I heartily agree with every word. Hence the perseverance of the saints being inexorably tied to not apostasizing, because one is an overcomer because one "believes and keeps on believing."

[Eyelog]

I would think so. What else could it mean?

Why would believers be given the following warning if it wasn't possible for a believer to lose their faith and fall away?

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Who else has stedfast confidence except for someone who is saved? Is this not saying that someone who is already saved and has stedfast confidence must continue with stedfast confidence "unto the end"? Also, who can depart from the living God except someone who has a personal relationship with Him?

As I documented ina post below somewhere, plenty of people have operated in the Spirit with gifts and doing miracles and stuff but did not hav ethe Spirit indwelling them, which is domonstratedbyt he fact Jesus told them, "i never knew you." similie of the Sheep and the Goats, MT 25. Plenty of other evidence.

My position is that partaking of the HS is not partaking of the "divine nature" 2pe 1, per se, though one could mean that by saying so. I am just saying that the passage about having tasted and partaken of the Spirit can easily not be referring to a person who was born again and Sprit indwelt.

The conceptof a "relationship" with God or the Lrod or the Spiritis somewhat vague. which Scripture support that concept for you? Would you say such with a relationship are by definition born again?

So far as Heb 3:12, the Hebrews writer is writing to brother Jews, some of which are at best followers of Christ but not born again yet. It's the same business of a heart turning away from God, a thing the Hebrews were quite experienced and abel to do throuought the OT, and inot the age of rejecting Christ:

Numbers 14:43
for the Amalekites and Canaanites will face you there. Because you have turned away from the LORD, he will not be with you and you will fall by the sword.”
Numbers 32:15
For if you turn away from following Him, He will once more abandon them in the wilderness, and you will destroy all these people.”
Deuteronomy 7:4
For they will turn your sons away from following Me to serve other gods; then the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you and He will quickly destroy you.
Deuteronomy 11:16
Beware that your hearts are not deceived, and that you do not turn away and serve other gods and worship them.
Deuteronomy 17:17
He shall not multiply wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself.
Deuteronomy 29:18
so that there will not be among you a man or woman, or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of those nations; that there will not be among you a root bearing poisonous fruit and wormwood.
Deuteronomy 30:16-18
16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
Joshua 22:16
“Thus says the whole congregation of the LORD, ‘What is this unfaithful act which you have committed against the God of Israel, turning away from following the LORD this day, by building yourselves an altar, to rebel against the LORD this day? … 18that you must turn away this day from following the LORD? If you rebel against the LORD today, He will be angry with the whole congregation of Israel tomorrow. …23If we have built us an altar to turn away from following the LORD, or if to offer a burnt offering or grain offering on it, or if to offer sacrifices of peace offerings on it, may the LORD Himself require it. … 29 Far be it from us that we should rebel against the LORD and turn away from following the LORD this day, by building an altar for burnt offering, for grain offering or for sacrifice, besides the altar of the LORD our God which is before His tabernacle.”

Deuteronomy 31
16 The LORD said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. 17 Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them, and they will be consumed, and many evils and troubles will come upon them; so that they will say in that day, ‘ Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?’ 18 But I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they will do, for they will turn to other gods. … 20 For when I bring them into the land flowing with milk and honey, which I swore to their fathers, and they have eaten and are satisfied and become prosperous, then they will turn to other gods and serve them, and spurn Me and break My covenant.6 “ But if you or your sons indeed turn away from following Me, and do not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods and worship them, 7 then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them, and the house which I have consecrated for My name, I will cast out of My sight … 1 Kings 9.

2 from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the sons of Israel, “ You shall not associate with them, nor shall they associate with you, for they will surely turn your heart away after their gods … 1 kings 11.

1 Kings 11:9
Now the LORD was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice,

2 Chronicles 29
.6 For our fathers have been unfaithful and have done evil in the sight of the LORD our God, and have forsaken Him and turned their faces away from the dwelling place of the LORD, and have turned their backs.
Isaiah 1:4
Alas, sinful nation, People weighed down with iniquity, Offspring of evildoers, Sons who act corruptly! They have abandoned the LORD, They have despised the Holy One of Israel, They have turned away from Him.
Psalm 125:5
But as for those who turn aside to their crooked ways, The LORD will lead them away with the doers of iniquity. Their apostasies are numerous. Jeremiah 5


17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry,
And [U]he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.[/U]18 “I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,
19 Creating the praise of the lips.
Peace, peace to him who is far and to him who is near,”
Says the LORD, “and I will heal him.” Isaiah 57.
Isaiah 59:13
Transgressing and denying the LORD, And turning away from our God, Speaking oppression and revolt, Conceiving in and uttering from the heart lying words.

4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 1 Timothy 4.

Matthew 24:10
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

Matthew 13:21
But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
Luke 8:13
Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.1. Matthew 26:31
[ Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial ] Then Jesus told them, “This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: “‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’…33 Peter replied, “Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will.”
Luke 7:23
Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me.”

2. 2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.


16 … the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2Peter3.

Now, which OT Hebrews had the indwelling of the HS? therefore, the idea of falling away does not require the indwelling, anytmore than the idea of partaking of the Spirit requires the indwlling.

Just more hairs to split.

[Bandit]

And don't you see that Nicodemus misunderstood the analogy Jesus made by taking it too literally?

Yeah, to take what Christ states literally when he states one must be born again.. birth is one way.
I know that conflicts with the doctrine that attacks the foundation of Christ,

So you really don't see Nicodemus' error in understanding. Well, if you don't see it, then I guess you're bound to repeat it.

[mailmandan]

The ones who fail to attain will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). The prize is eternal life in the presence of God with an immortal and incorruptible body in the new heavens and new earth.

Hello John146,

I was reading through the comments of AT Robertson on 1 Corinthians 9:27. He notes: Paul asks the question. What is the prize before Paul? Is it that reward of which he spoke in verse 1 Corinthians 9:18, his glorying of preaching a free gospel? He comments that most writers take Paul to refer to the possibility of his rejection in his personal salvation at the end of the race. The problem that I see with this latter interpretation is I see a difference between a prize and a gift. A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit. Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That doesn't sound like a free gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved.

Paul does not seem to indicate any insecurity about his position - "Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:8). Also, in 1 Corinthians 9:24, Paul mentions - Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. That doesn't sound like the gift of eternal life either. That sounds like an Olympic race where all run, but only one receives the gold medal. Would this mean that everyone else is disqualified from the race? Silver medal, bronze medal, no medal but finished the race, all disqualified from the race? Comparing that analogy with this passage of Scripture, that sounds like out of all of us believers who are in the race, only one of us is going to heaven.

[Mark F]

Hello John146,

I was reading through the comments of AT Robertson on 1 Corinthians 9:27. He notes: Paul asks the question. What is the prize before Paul? Is it that reward of which he spoke in verse 1 Corinthians 9:18, his glorying of preaching a free gospel? He comments that most writers take Paul to refer to the possibility of his rejection in his personal salvation at the end of the race. The problem that I see with this latter interpretation is I see a difference between a prize and a gift. A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit. Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That doesn't sound like a free gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved.

Paul does not seem to indicate any insecurity about his position - "Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:8). Also, in 1 Corinthians 9:24, Paul mentions - Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. That doesn't sound like the gift of eternal life either. That sounds like an Olympic race where all run, but only one receives the gold medal. Would this mean that everyone else is disqualified from the race? Silver medal, bronze medal, no medal but finished the race, all disqualified from the race? Comparing that analogy with this passage of Scripture, that sounds like out of all of us believers who are in the race, only one of us is going to heaven.

That's how I would see that as well, the passages of 1 Cor 9:25, Phil 4:1, 1 Thes 2:19, 2 Tim 4:8, and more speak of rewards and prizes not salvation.

[Colight]

Comparing that analogy with this passage of Scripture, that sounds like out of all of us believers who are in the race, only one of us is going to heaven.

Sounds like Paul is that one who made it... well the whole Christian thing was fun while it lasted, but the slot is filled.

[BroRog]

Hello John146,

I was reading through the comments of AT Robertson on 1 Corinthians 9:27. He notes: Paul asks the question. What is the prize before Paul? Is it that reward of which he spoke in verse 1 Corinthians 9:18, his glorying of preaching a free gospel? He comments that most writers take Paul to refer to the possibility of his rejection in his personal salvation at the end of the race. The problem that I see with this latter interpretation is I see a difference between a prize and a gift. A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit. Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That doesn't sound like a free gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved.

Paul does not seem to indicate any insecurity about his position - "Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:8). Also, in 1 Corinthians 9:24, Paul mentions - Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. That doesn't sound like the gift of eternal life either. That sounds like an Olympic race where all run, but only one receives the gold medal. Would this mean that everyone else is disqualified from the race? Silver medal, bronze medal, no medal but finished the race, all disqualified from the race? Comparing that analogy with this passage of Scripture, that sounds like out of all of us believers who are in the race, only one of us is going to heaven.

The crown of righteousness IS salvation.

[mailmandan]

The crown of righteousness IS salvation.

Hi BroRog,

Do you believe that the salvation IS the prize? How do you interpret 1 Corinthians 9:24? Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.

[Colight]

The crown of righteousness IS salvation.

That is not entirely correct..

Crown of Righteousness is for Christians who have capacity for Righteousness and Justice to rule and reign with Christ.

The word, Righteousness, in this verse is the Greek dikaiosuvnh (dikaiosune), which means capacity-Righteousness; Righteousness raised to a higher power;
Like a Righteousness x2.. This comes from not only cracking spiritual maturity but going beyond to occupation with Christ.

There is A LOT more to the Christian life than just salvation.
It is rather small to just limit one scope of of their spiritual life to only salvation and their once a week trip to Church..

[claybevan]

That is not entirely correct..

Crown of Righteousness is for Christians who have capacity for Righteousness and Justice to rule and reign with Christ.

The word, Righteousness, in this verse is the Greek dikaiosuvnh (dikaiosune), which means capacity-Righteousness; Righteousness raised to a higher power;
Like a Righteousness x2.. This comes from not only cracking spiritual maturity but going beyond to occupation with Christ.

There is A LOT more to the Christian life than just salvation.

Good grief I think I for once agree with you Colight, see tis a greater thing that unites us than divides us, would a be appropriate?

[Colight]

So you really don't see Nicodemus' error in understanding. Well, if you don't see it, then I guess you're bound to repeat it.

repeat what?

That you believe a child no matter what the age can slide in and out of the birth channel of their mother based on how good or bad they have been?

For that is what you are stating in a spiritual sense..

The 2nd birth I very much understand... that is what Nicodemus did not understand.
It this whole is it in... or is it out thing... I am having issue with.. both in a logical and spiritual level.

[Colight]

Good grief I think I for once agree with you Colight, see tis a greater thing that unites us than divides us, would a be appropriate?

Heh,
Crowns are a minor issue..

Now if we can agree on some of the major stuff.. that would be worth rejoicing..

But must start some where

[Watchman]

Sooo, has this thread come down to the difference between salvation and rewards? Just curious.

W

[claybevan]

Heh,
Crowns are a minor issue..

Now if we can agree on some of the major stuff.. that would be worth rejoicing..

But must start some where

I am more than happy with that brother