Once saved, always saved?

[mailmandan]

Heb 6
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Hi Jeff,

The word Enlightened (photizo from phos = light) means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. Figuratively, photizo means to give guidance or understanding, to make clear or to cause something to be known by revealing clearly. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man"; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. These Hebrews were exposed to the truth, but exposure to truth does not guarantee full acceptance and submission to the truth.

They had tasted of the heavenly gift, and in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept the thing that is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it."

Partakers (metochos from metecho = have with, describing participation with another in common blessings) describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an enterprise or undertaking. It speaks of those who are participators in something. Business partner, companion. Participating in. Accomplice in. Comrade. Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews in the context of believers (Hebrews 3:14 "For we have become partakers of Christ") and thus the statement that the readers have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit seems at first glance to be support that true believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the indwelling of believers. It is very plausible to envision an individual becoming a sharer in or partaker of the Spirit (and his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come) by responding for a time to His drawing power intended to lead sinners to Christ. The translation "shared" implies something done in company with others and before salvation all believers shared in the convicting ministry of the Spirit Who drew them to salvation. Note also that the writer does not state that these individuals were indwelt by the Holy Spirit or sealed by the Holy Spirit or possessors of the Spirit's pledge (guarantee) of future inheritance. It sounds to me that these Hebrews, after knowing and being convinced of the truth, they willfully reject it. We can repent "change our mind" enough to be convicted of and know the truth, but if we reject it and there is no heart submission to this knowledge of the truth, then this would not be repentance unto life. Renew them once again unto salvation would be a definitive statement to prove that these Hebrews were saved and lost their salvation.

Greater evidence that these people were not saved is given in verse 9. Things change in this verse, for now He is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this agricultural metaphor, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. When we recall the other metaphors in Scripture where good fruit and fruitfulness is a sign of true spiritual life and bad fruit or a lack of fruit is a sign of those who are not saved (for example - Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35), we already have an indication that the writer is speaking of people whose most trustworthy evidence of their spiritual condition (the fruit they bear) is negative, suggesting that the writer is talking about people who are not born again believers. Thorns and thistles and falling away does not accompany salvation.

As in Hebrews 10:26, we see - For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. Just having the knowledge of the truth does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. For this knowledge to be of any spiritual value, there must be a heart submission to that knowledge. When we get to verse 39, we see that these Hebrews draw back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul. How can we say they were "saved" and "lost their salvation" when they "did not believe to the saving of the soul?"

[mailmandan]

Check Peter out, weighing in on this subject. I think 2 Peter 2 is a prime example of the "impossible" case:

2 Peter 2
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a [a]preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from [b]temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who [c] indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.

Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic [d]majesties, 11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in [e]the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their [f]deceptions, as they carouse with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; 15 forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.

17 These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the [g]black darkness has been reserved. 18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 [h]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “ A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

Hi Eyelog,

From what you quoted above, I certainly don't see any indication that these false teachers were ever saved. Here is my take on 2 Peter 2:20.

Who are "they" in verse 20? This is variously interpreted as either the false teachers or their victims, but the proximity to the false teachers in (2 Peter 2:19) makes them the most natural antecedent of "they". Furthermore, the false teachers are the main subject of the whole chapter. Peter did not mention that those who escaped the "pollutions of the world" through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, were "born again" or "saved." "Having escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. For this knowledge to be of any spiritual value, there must be a heart submission to that knowledge. The "way of righteousness" and "holy commandment" emphasize the ethical content of the knowledge the false teachers had. They knew what was right and holy, but they deliberately chose to reject it. They had knowledge of salvation, but they lacked that true saving experience with the Lord. Just like in Hebrews 10:39, they had the knowledge of the truth (vs. 26) but chose to draw back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But true believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside. True believers have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

[David Taylor]

So what of those who have fallen away from the faith? Were they ever saved to begin with? Is it possible to invite the Holy Spirit to dwell inside of us, only to later evict him?

I find that according to this verse, it is the Lord Jesus Christ that changes us to be a new creature in Him; we are metamorphisezed from the old, sinful desires of the flesh, to follow the pure, holy ways of the Spirit; because of His Spirit living inside us.

II Cor 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. "

So that Christ changes us to a new creature; passing from the old fleshly way, to the new Spiritual way in Him; we can see clearly from the passages above.

Where are the passages that tell us Christ then later comes around, and changes those He has already changes to a new creature of the Spirit; back to an old creature of the flesh?

Is our being made like Christ His power, and His work; or is it a work we turn on an off at our own whim?

[Slug1]

IF Paul state run that you may win , then it is logical that some may not run and lose.

Let's begin with what Paul was led to write and teach about... OSAS says that those who begin the race which is when they get on the narrow path (by accepting Christ), WILL cross the finish line even if those running, stop running or even if they "turn" off the path (turn to error).

So... who's mixing up these scriptures, those in the OSAS camp or NOSAS camp??

[Slug1]

then that must mean the person is an apostate, which in my thinking means they were never saved to begin with, but were just another follower of Jesus who fell away. (otherwise, if he were a born again believer, hell would not be a potential punishment,)

See... to me, this is a main problem with those who are fully OSAS believers and a way they cop out of the truth. It's too easy to say a person was not "really" in Christ and write them off when they turn away into error. I will even be so bold in stating that this is satan's plan OF that false doctrine... to get Christians to believe a person was never "really" in Christ and so they don't "really" put forth the full effort to turn them back as the James 5 scriptures INSTRUCT us to do.

If this was true (OSAS doctrine stating that a person in Christ yet they turn to error was NEVER really saved)... then Jesus would never go after that ONE sheep who turned away from the flock. He'd just wait for the end and the sheep would be there anyway to be put back in the flock.

So OSAS has this mixed up in 2 ways... 1) They believe the person was NEVER really in the flock OR 2) They believe there is no need for Jesus to search after any who turn away from the flock because they are permanently saved and don't need to remain in the flock and CAN turn away and STILL finish the race.

Both of these mixed up beliefs will cause Christians who are in the OSAS camp, to NOT fully help those who have turned away and THAT is satan's plan of that doctrine.

So no... a person in Christ but turns away... they will be judged as such if they don't turn back to Jesus when He seeks them and He will pursue them till their dying day letting them know His love is always open to them should they confess and repent and turn back to Him. He does this through the steadfast Christians interceeding for the ONE who turned to error. He does this through steadfast Christians who will minister and help those who have turned away into error. Those steadfast Christians who NOT ONCE, think that the Christian who turned to error, maybe wasn't really in Christ. However, if the one who's turned away into error is so stubborn due to a hurtful circumstance... and die before turning back to Christ so He can return them to the flock and due to not turning back, continue to run OFF the path and AWAY from the flock they once were a part of... then they will be judged as such. Based on the James 5 scriptures, the result of their turning away into error will be the death of their soul.

OSAS mixes this all up to FIT a false doctrine they choose to believe.

[Eyelog]

The word Enlightened (photizo from phos = light) means to bring to light, ... When we get to verse 39, we see that these Hebrews draw back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul. How can we say they were "saved" and "lost their salvation" when they "did not believe to the saving of the soul?"

Most excellent post, and I see all you say as dovetailing nicely with my own views.

[Eyelog]

Hi Eyelog,

From what you quoted above, I certainly don't see any indication that these false teachers were ever saved. Here is my take on 2 Peter 2:20.

Who are "they" in verse 20? This is variously interpreted as either the false teachers or their victims, but the proximity to the false teachers in (2 Peter 2:19) makes them the most natural antecedent of "they". Furthermore, the false teachers are the main subject of the whole chapter. Peter did not mention that those who escaped the "pollutions of the world" through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, were "born again" or "saved." "Having escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. For this knowledge to be of any spiritual value, there must be a heart submission to that knowledge. The "way of righteousness" and "holy commandment" emphasize the ethical content of the knowledge the false teachers had. They knew what was right and holy, but they deliberately chose to reject it. They had knowledge of salvation, but they lacked that true saving experience with the Lord. Just like in Hebrews 10:39, they had the knowledge of the truth (vs. 26) but chose to draw back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But true believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside. True believers have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

Another excellent post, and addressing an issue I thought someone might ask me about. But you have nipped it very well and accurately in my view.

[Eyelog]

I find that according to this verse, it is the Lord Jesus Christ that changes us to be a new creature in Him; we are metamorphisezed from the old, sinful desires of the flesh, to follow the pure, holy ways of the Spirit; because of His Spirit living inside us.

II Cor 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. "

So that Christ changes us to a new creature; passing from the old fleshly way, to the new Spiritual way in Him; we can see clearly from the passages above.

Where are the passages that tell us Christ then later comes around, and changes those He has already changes to a new creature of the Spirit; back to an old creature of the flesh?

Is our being made like Christ His power, and His work; or is it a work we turn on an off at our own whim?

Hi, David. For me it's more a question of whether a given "follower" of Christ has truly been born again yet. I think there is a type and level of "Saving Faith" (Romans 10:9 and surrounds) necessary before the Holy Spirit changes us forever.

So, I agree that the change involved in regeneration makes a new creation and we can't be unborn again. It's just that when and how and why that transformation occurs is less easy for us to see in each other than we sometimes think. In fact, depending on one's indoctrination, one may be deceived into believing they are born again when they are not, and some may think they don't even need to be born again to be saved, and so on. And then there is the self-deception of the Flesh and the blinding by the devil. It is real easy for someone to lack saving faith and think they have it, or perhaps as commonly or more so, to have no clue whether they have saving faith. For, how many "followers" really understand where the most powerful "assurance of salvation" comes from?

I tell you. I have shown that mere "followers" who do not have the indwelling of the Spirit can end up rather shocked (Similie of the Sheep and the Goats), despite their performing of miracles by the HS. So, the inclination to say our best assurance of salvation is the seal of the HS within us may not be true from one angle: It's easy for he who has not to confuse working in the Spirit with having the Spirit indwelt.

So what gives the greatest assurance of salvation? What's your view?

[Colight]

Let's begin with what Paul was led to write and teach about... OSAS says that those who begin the race which is when they get on the narrow path (by accepting Christ), WILL cross the finish line even if those running, stop running or even if they "turn" off the path (turn to error).

So... who's mixing up these scriptures, those in the OSAS camp or NOSAS camp??

The finish line is not salvation.
The finish line is maturity,

To even be on the track is salvation,.a non-believer can not run that race.

[Colight]

See... to me, this is a main problem with those who are fully OSAS believers and a way they cop out of the truth. It's too easy to say a person was not "really" in Christ and write them off when they turn away into error. I will even be so bold in stating that this is satan's plan OF that false doctrine... to get Christians to believe a person was never "really" in Christ and so they don't "really" put forth the full effort to turn them back as the James 5 scriptures INSTRUCT us to do.

If this was true (OSAS doctrine stating that a person in Christ yet they turn to error was NEVER really saved)... then Jesus would never go after that ONE sheep who turned away from the flock. He'd just wait for the end and the sheep would be there anyway to be put back in the flock.

So OSAS has this mixed up in 2 ways... 1) They believe the person was NEVER really in the flock OR 2) They believe there is no need for Jesus to search after any who turn away from the flock because they are permanently saved and don't need to remain in the flock and CAN turn away and STILL finish the race.

Both of these mixed up beliefs will cause Christians who are in the OSAS camp, to NOT fully help those who have turned away and THAT is satan's plan of that doctrine.

So no... a person in Christ but turns away... they will be judged as such if they don't turn back to Jesus when He seeks them and He will pursue them till their dying day letting them know His love is always open to them should they confess and repent and turn back to Him. He does this through the steadfast Christians interceeding for the ONE who turned to error. He does this through steadfast Christians who will minister and help those who have turned away into error. Those steadfast Christians who NOT ONCE, think that the Christian who turned to error, maybe wasn't really in Christ. However, if the one who's turned away into error is so stubborn due to a hurtful circumstance... and die before turning back to Christ so He can return them to the flock and due to not turning back, continue to run OFF the path and AWAY from the flock they once were a part of... then they will be judged as such. Based on the James 5 scriptures, the result of their turning away into error will be the death of their soul.

OSAS mixes this all up to FIT a false doctrine they choose to believe.

Why dont you post what I believe the refute it, that way i can sit be and have a nap.
Maybe after that ...I can post what you believe....

[Slug1]

The finish line is not salvation.
The finish line is maturity,

To even be on the track is salvation,.a non-believer can not run that race.

You are now avoiding the topic

[Slug1]

Why dont you post what I believe the refute it, that way i can sit be and have a nap.
Maybe after that ...I can post what you believe....

You are now avoiding the topic

[Colight]

On the other hand, Colight comments that the death there may only be physical, and not a sentence to hell. This could be a valid point, looking at the Greek term for death here, thanatos. In that case, if his sin results only in physical death, the guy must have been guilty of a "sin unto death," ... such as ... Have some examples?

King Saul...
Died the sin onto death yet joined Samuel in paradise,

1 Sam 28
17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Saul was to be with Samuel in Paradise, yet he would face the sin onto death before that would occur..

[Colight]

You are now avoiding the topic

You seem to have it all worked out and are on a good roll. Dont let me stop yah.

Side note: Why is it insecure salvation is a belief that is also shared today by the tongues believers today? Have you always been a insecurisit?

[Colight]

You are now avoiding the topic

You incorrectly stated my position.

Let's begin with what Paul was led to write and teach about... OSAS says that those who begin the race which is when they get on the narrow path (by accepting Christ), WILL cross the finish line even if those running, stop running or even if they "turn" off the path (turn to error).

The race is not salvation..... the race is maturity.
Very few will cross the finish line.
A very few.