If End Times Prophecy is True......................?

[Scooby_Snacks]

Good first point. I am not looking for government to save me or prevent me from being attacked. Hoping that the government will protect one is like taking a savage dog in the advanced stages of rabies for a walk hoping it will protect you from robbers. The most likely source of an attack upon Christians will be from government.

Your second point is not good. No one should rejoice in evil happening. Even when one knows that the end times evil points to a soon return of the Messiah Jesus. No one stands next to a woman going through the pain of child birth smiling and getting joy out of see her in pain.

Amos 5
18 Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD! For what good is the day of the LORD to you? It will be darkness, and not light.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

AMOS 5 is so telling..

May our hearts be not far from Him, worshipping other gods, while our lips say we are close, all the while singing songs to Him!
May He have Mercy upon us, and draw us near Him before His perfect justice raises the scales to weigh us.
May we gain instruction and wisdom in our inner most being, today as if it were yesterday.
Help us Lord to walk in You.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
(Romans 8:18-25 ESV)

Waiting and hoping for adoption, but praying for His Mercy upon us, for The Day of the Lord is always at hand.

[dan]

You are talking about things that exist while this earth exists. When Jesus returns, this earth will burn and melt. We are looking for a new heaven and new earth after His return. It will be a world unlike anything we can imagine. We know that 'hell' as it exists today, will be thrown in a lake of fire for ever and ever.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:14-15)

Perhaps, I see no reference one way or the other. Oh, wait a minute, check this out:

John is in Heaven when he gives his narrative, right?

REV 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
REV 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.

Of course he is.

So, when he says he saw it, it was seen from Heaven.

REV 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
REV 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
REV 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So, by John's reference, it was, and may be again, seen from heaven.

[dan]

Hi Dan,

This is kinda off topic, but I'll respond anyway.

The key to interpreting "The Rich Man and Lazarus" is determining its literary form. The literary form is not "historical narration", nor is it "parable". Instead, I see it is a type of satire called "parody".

That Jesus did employ satire at times is quite evident in the gospels. Examples of this include, Matthew 9:13, where Jesus exempts the Pharisees from His redemptive plan because He only came for sinners, not “the righteous” and again in Luke 13:13 where Jesus ironically expresses that prophets cannot possibly perish anywhere except in Jerusalem. Also in Matthew 22:23-33, Jesus silences the Sadducees on the question of the resurrection by expanding upon the nature of angels (verse 30). I don’t think for a moment that Jesus was seriously trying to convince the Sadducees of something they did not believe in by elaborating upon something else they equally dismissed as nonexistent.

In order to establish that the literary form of Lazarus and the Rich Man is satire, or more particularly, a parody, there must be clear evidence that:

a. A common or "well known story line is being imitated".

b. irony is employed; that the story’s outcome is changed such
that there is clear “incongruity between the actual result
of a sequence of events and the expected result”

c. the unexpected results "highlight human stupidity" or corruption.

d. "a comic end is served", the purpose of which is to cause listeners
"to detach sympathies from certain people (groups), to judge their
actions and to see the absurdity in their behavior.."


It is not difficult to demonstrate that The Rich Man and Lazarus account satisfies
these criteria and fits the mold of parody rather nicely.

If there weren't so many references to truthfulness in the Bible, I would be tempted to agree.

MT 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
MT 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

[Vanderhoven7]

If there weren't so many references to truthfulness in the Bible, I would be tempted to agree.
[B]

Hi Dan,

Every word in the Bible is true. But not every word is literal and/or historical. Otherwise we would never get a laugh out of visualizing someone swallowing a camel or walking around with a log in their eyes but still able to see the specks in others.

Jesus audience got a hearty laugh at the Pharisees over this one though. Jesus retold their story, the story they used to justify not lifting a finger to help the poor, but with an ironic twist that saw the Pharisees in their own version of hell in the afterlife.

The purpose of parody is to undermine authority. Jesus did that in both stories found in Luke 16

[vinsight4u8]

We are to look up when the signs are seen.

[dan]

Hi Dan,

Every word in the Bible is true. But not every word is literal and/or historical. Otherwise we would never get a laugh out of visualizing someone swallowing a camel or walking around with a log in their eyes but still able to see the specks in others.

Jesus audience got a hearty laugh at the Pharisees over this one though. Jesus retold their story, the story they used to justify not lifting a finger to help the poor, but with an ironic twist that saw the Pharisees in their own version of hell in the afterlife.

The purpose of parody is to undermine authority. Jesus did that in both stories found in Luke 16

It's possible you are right.

But, you may be over-analyzing.

[Vanderhoven7]

It's possible you are right.

But, you may be over-analyzing.

There is always that possibility no matter how we look at this story Dan. Because it is so unique and unprecedented scripturally, I think it wise to look deeply at this passage and the context it is in, both textual and situational and ask ourselves, what was Jesus doing here? Who was He talking to and why? Was He trying to scare the Pharisees with their own story? How did the Pharisees use their story about the afterlife to justify their HOLY denial of any help to the poor and destitute? How did Jesus' story about the afterlife differ from the Pharisees' story? And lastly, who ends up in the Pharisees version of Hades and how would the crowd, who had listened to the Pharisees self-justifying rhetoric for decades, have responded?

How do you think the Pharisees would have responded to Jesus' story? I'll tell you. Their response would have been quite similar to their response to the "dishonest steward" in the same chapter.

[SirToady]

If End Times Prophecy is true the why are Christians hoping for the government to save us. It looks like to me if it is God's will that there be a global government, a global currency, and an antichrist for a world ruler then Christians should be thrilled beyond measure that it could happen in our lifetime. However all I hear is how a Republican will save us, or a Democrat already has. I say bring it all on ASAP.

You are right, these should be times of hope and faith and trust but as Paul fought the good fight we should also - no matter what the odds are against us as we move towards the end times.

[dan]

If End Times Prophecy is true the why are Christians hoping for the government to save us. It looks like to me if it is God's will that there be a global government, a global currency, and an antichrist for a world ruler then Christians should be thrilled beyond measure that it could happen in our lifetime. However all I hear is how a Republican will save us, or a Democrat already has. I say bring it all on ASAP.

I believe that we are instructed to refrain from assisting evil, here:

ROM 3:8 Let us not, "do evil so that good may come", a statement which we are falsely said by some to have made, because such behaviour will have its right punishment. (Bible In Basic English)

Not even with words.

MT 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
MT 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
MT 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

[rimbaud65]

If End Times Prophecy is true the why are Christians hoping for the government to save us. It looks like to me if it is God's will that there be a global government, a global currency, and an antichrist for a world ruler then Christians should be thrilled beyond measure that it could happen in our lifetime. However all I hear is how a Republican will save us, or a Democrat already has. I say bring it all on ASAP.

Just wondering why you consider it a thrill if it is in our lifetime, as for instance oppose to 70-80 years from now, or in 2185? Don't know if you're pretrib or not but considering the fact that all that is described in Revelation will translate to a pretty horrendous scenery, with unequaled suffering and torment, makes it hard to really look forward to it in that kind of way, or to be thrilled about it. Given the fact that even dead people by that time will get their reward it seems to be a prefered route to take, i.e. to be dead in Christ and then Resurrected when that time comes.

[DurbanDude]

Just wondering why you consider it a thrill if it is in our lifetime, as for instance oppose to 70-80 years from now, or in 2185? Don't know if you're pretrib or not but considering the fact that all that is described in Revelation will translate to a pretty horrendous scenery, with unequaled suffering and torment, makes it hard to really look forward to it in that kind of way, or to be thrilled about it. Given the fact that even dead people by that time will get their reward it seems to be a prefered route to take, i.e. to be dead in Christ and then Resurrected when that time comes.

I guess the thrill is that this sinful world is finally coming to a close, and the imminency of being with Jesus. I know its closer every day we age, but how much more exciting to be living in an era when we could see Jesus coming on the clouds. Waiting to die of old age just doesn't seem quite as exciting. I believe the suffering is only for 3.5 years and so its not a big problem. I do look forward to it, I don't know if that is logical because as you say it will be terrible times, but everyone would have heard the gospel and made their choices by then and so the death and tribulation wont effect eternal consequences.

[awestruckchild]

We should be hastening His coming.
But we should try to understand how the verse that says He will come when we least expect Him, and suddenly, when people are eating and drinking and marrying and at ease, can possibly fit with the verses about how awful it will be when He comes.
We must think about what this might mean.

[DurbanDude]

We should be hastening His coming.
But we should try to understand how the verse that says He will come when we least expect Him, and suddenly, when people are eating and drinking and marrying and at ease, can possibly fit with the verses about how awful it will be when He comes.
We must think about what this might mean.

That verse you quote relates to those who will be destroyed. they are the ones taken by surprise:

Luke 17:26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

We are the ones who correctly recognize the signs and are not taken by surprise:
1 Thessalonians 5:4
But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

Unbelievers are surprised, believers are not surprised.

[John 8:32]

That verse you quote relates to those who will be destroyed. they are the ones taken by surprise:

Luke 17:26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

We are the ones who correctly recognize the signs and are not taken by surprise:
1 Thessalonians 5:4
But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

Unbelievers are surprised, believers are not surprised.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.

Verse 31 is key to understanding this passage. If this were the return of Christ, and you were on the housetop, would you want to go down, enter the house and pack your suitcase? Would you want to get your "stuff"? I don't think so, you would rise in the air to meet Christ in the clouds. This is not talking about the seventh trump and the return, it is talking about leaving and going to a place of safety on the earth where your "stuff" might be important to have.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

This is the flight of the ekklesia into "her place"...

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Notice this is not "heaven", it is the wilderness. This is physical protection for 3-1/2 years...

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Accounted worthy to escape the tribulation and live to stand before the Son of Man.

worthy...

G2661
καταξιόω
kataxioō
kat-ax-ee-o'-o
From G2596 and G515; to deem entirely deserving: - (ac-) count worthy.

[DurbanDude]

Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.

Verse 31 is key to understanding this passage. If this were the return of Christ, and you were on the housetop, would you want to go down, enter the house and pack your suitcase? Would you want to get your "stuff"? I don't think so, you would rise in the air to meet Christ in the clouds. This is not talking about the seventh trump and the return, it is talking about leaving and going to a place of safety on the earth where your "stuff" might be important to have.

I think that the key lesson Jesus is giving here, is that if you turn back you will be showing your true motivation is still with earthly things just like Lot's wife turned back. We should just look up on that day, not back at our earthly possessions. There is nothing there in Luke 17 that contradicts the post-trib position.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

This is referring to the tribulation. When we see the antichrist come to power amidst signs and wonders, its time to flee because of the tribulation.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Notice this is not "heaven", it is the wilderness. This is physical protection for 3-1/2 years...

Exactly.

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Accounted worthy to escape the tribulation and live to stand before the Son of Man.

worthy...

G2661
καταξιόω
kataxioō
kat-ax-ee-o'-o
From G2596 and G515; to deem entirely deserving: - (ac-) count worthy.

Worthy to escape the distractions:

21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The verse is saying watch carefully so that we are worthy. The verse lists those things to watch out for, drink, the cares of this life, excess. If we are worthy we will escape the tribulation with our hearts still after Jesus. If we are not worthy our hearts will be burdened with cares and distractions and we will not escape the intense tribulation with our hearts and faith pure.