HS Baptism by Jesus (Matt 3:11) and HS Baptism by the HS (1 Cor12:13)

[Slug1]

I'm sure that it all seems to you the way you say. From other points of view, it does not.

Have a blessed day.

Hooah

Your point of view, nor my point of view.... change the meaning of the scriptures at all. Scripture is that CHANGES us, once we see it the way God meant it.

[Slug1]

I'm right with you Slug. I was blinded too and misused passages from Acts 8 and 1 Corinthians 13 to stay blinded, until around 2 years ago when my eyes were completely opened when my wife was baptized with the Holy Spirit. Since then, I have been too.

Amen... it's amazing to look back on my own past and "see" just how blind I was due to what the church taught, what doctrines I was forced to learn and then LIVE as the bondage consumed me and rendered my heart hardened. The blessing of the testimony He's given to me through the struggles of surrendering that bondage over to Him until I was set free, my eyes opened and my heart turned from hardness to compassion... gives Him the glory.

God is Good!

Now I have to put together the Bible Study for tomorrow, I will get to those scriptures

[Boo]

Hooah

Your point of view, nor my point of view.... change the meaning of the scriptures at all. Scripture is that CHANGES us, once we see it the way God meant it.

You are absolutely correct, my brother. Scripture can change us - IF we will accept scripture for what it reveals. However, we can never do that if we search scripture in only an academic way. We also cannot do it in only an emotional way, as some truths will not sit well with our emotional desires.

Therein lies the problem, and if we are not careful - the problem lies to us.

[Slug1]

You are absolutely correct, my brother. Scripture can change us - IF we will accept scripture for what it reveals. However, we can never do that if we search scripture in only an academic way. We also cannot do it in only an emotional way, as some truths will not sit well with our emotional desires.

Therein lies the problem, and if we are not careful - the problem lies to us.

Beautifully said!

Here are some of the emotion(s) I once had... anger, fear, and confusion due to what doctrine said compared to that the Word of God said.

The WORSE emotion was CONTEMPT and this was compounded in this manner... HOW DARE those Pentecostals, Charismatics, and any OTHER church or even Christian for that matter, ALLOW the Holy Spirit to move them in ways that what my denomination taught me and that the doctrine I choose to believe... says God WON'T anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How DARE all those "so called" Christians do what this doctrine says God won't do!!!

Even if I was wrong, WHAT is the use of God bestowing supernatural gifts upon the Body of Christ today when the Body of Christ is so mature???

Yeah, my heart was NOT in any great condition due to what the church produces and molds babes in Christ... into... which continues.

[Boo]

Beautifully said!

Here are some of the emotion(s) I once had... anger, fear, and confusion due to what doctrine said compared to that the Word of God said.

The WORSE emotion was CONTEMPT and this was compounded in this manner... HOW DARE those Pentecostals, Charismatics, and any OTHER church or even Christian for that matter, ALLOW the Holy Spirit to move them in ways that what my denomination taught me and that the doctrine I choose to believe... says God WON'T anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How DARE all those "so called" Christians do what this doctrine says God won't do!!!

Even if I was wrong, WHAT is the use of God bestowing supernatural gifts upon the Body of Christ today when the Body of Christ is so mature???

Yeah, my heart was NOT in any great condition due to what the church produces and molds babes in Christ... into... which continues.

My brother, it is not a matter of "how dare" for me. It may have been for you, but for some of us who have never experienced it; what would you have us do? If those gifts are never revealed to us, we never actually witness them, and we never see the purpose or results, would you have us sit and wonder why we don't appear to be good enough to experience them?

If logic tells me that those gifts don't exist - due to never seeing them manifested - are we to be criticized because of that?

It is not blindness, brother. It is not seeing; there is a difference. When God wants me to know about them, He will reveal them.

By the way, I am not fighting you. Nor am I accusing you. I am waiting on revelation and understanding - if they are real. In the meantime, have a great Lord's Day.

P.S. - please don't make reference to the Holy Spirit not working in my life just because those gifts have not materialized for me. That could be taken very wrong - or right - depending on how you meant it.

[Slug1]

My brother, it is not a matter of "how dare" for me. It may have been for you, but for some of us who have never experienced it; what would you have us do? If those gifts are never revealed to us, we never actually witness them, and we never see the purpose or results, would you have us sit and wonder why we don't appear to be good enough to experience them?

Nope... and the reason I simply said, Nope... is because it's not a matter of being good enough. Ya want to KNOW why I say that? I can say that because NONE OF US ARE GOOD ENOUGH!!

These gifts aren't ABOUT us at all. Out there in the Body of Christ are some Christians saying they are SO good, that they don't need them. Or they say, MY FAITH is all that is needed for me.

It's NOT ABOUT THEM... it's ALL about Jesus and what HE will do with the power of God.

So while you feel you are on one side (not good enough side), some other Christians are completely on the other side (got it ALL under their control)... guess what? BOTH sides are wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even those in the middle... they are also WRONG because they are nothing special either

If logic tells me that those gifts don't exist - due to never seeing them manifested - are we to be criticized because of that?

Here is the problem with this logic... 1) Testimony from brothers and sisters, 2) A Christian don't NEED to see any gift to believe they exist... the Bible TELLS anyone who reads the Bible, that they exist.

So, it's a matter of ACCEPTANCE, not logic, not experience(s), or even feelings!!

It is not blindness, brother. It is not seeing; there is a difference. When God wants me to know about them, He will reveal them.

I agree, truly I do.

By the way, I am not fighting you. Nor am I accusing you. I am waiting on revelation and understanding - if they are real.

I know, this is easily discerned from your posts. However, He's already revealed the understanding in the very Bible He makes available for all to learn and grow from.

P.S. - please don't make reference to the Holy Spirit not working in my life just because those gifts have not materialized for me. That could be taken very wrong - or right - depending on how you meant it.

This next comment is due to experience so all I ask is that you consider what I'm about to say... I had no doubt the Holy Spirit worked in my life every day even when I was on this forum telling people that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit had ended. What that doctrine had done was cause my heart to be so hard that I REFUSED to believe that the Holy Spirit WAS continuing to bless the Body of Christ with supernatural power OF God. Thus... that element of MY personal relationship with God, through Jesus, led by that doctrine so the Holy Spirit respected my belief(s)... caused the Holy Spirit not to manifest in a way that I refused to believe?

Basically, due to what I believed, the relationship was MY way which was the "way" that doctrine wanted it.

As I said above, it's not my way, your way... anyone's way. It's God's way and only when we are in surrender to God's way, can God HAVE His way with us.

So when I began to surrender to God's way... He moved me right out of churches that followed the false doctrines. This could not happen until AFTER, the bondage(s) to those doctrines were SEVERED.

So... is there something needing breaking in your life, I don't know... I can pray specifically for you if you'd like. PM me anytime if so.

Now, back to a general reply, OK... you did say this:

I am waiting on revelation and understanding - if they are real.

Do you think that what you say is a reflection of what is really in your heart? The Bible would say YES (Mt 15:18)! The tongue can both bless and curse (James 3). So by saying, "IF" they are real... this is already DOUBT cursing you by VOICING what you have in your heart... DOUBT!

That is ALSO easily discerned based on what you say.

Another thing, you're waiting... I don't know if your church/denominational doctrine says that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are ended... if the church/denom DOES say this, then you will wait, and wait, and wait, and wait.

Because if God WAS to have the Holy Spirit baptize you as in the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" and the evidence is through the manifestation of speaking in tongues and you are in a church that DENIES the Holy Spirit gifts... there would be NO GLORY given to Him. Remember, the power of God isn't ABOUT you, it's ALL ABOUT HIM.

So WHY would He manifest a gift of the Holy Spirit in a church or a denomination where the overall reaction would be to boot the tongues (sign of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit) speaker OUT of the church, or tell them to SHUT UP... or worse of all, SAY that the supernatural power isn't God but is the devil??

BLASPHEMY and any and ALL who voiced that sin of unbelief and called the power of the Holy Spirit, of the devil... they will NEVER be forgiven of that sin. I'm telling you... there are people who are in churches that will speak AGAINST the gifts of the Holy Spirit because they are blasphemers and due to the hardness of their heart due to that false doctrine... will say they love God for the rest of their natural lives all the while, speaking against Him because THEY can't hear His voice anymore... the voice of false doctrine is ALL THEY SEE AND HEAR.

So, what I advise to anyone who is truly waiting... don't do it in a church/denom that is already preventing God from moving in any supernatural way DUE to their unbelief based on a doctrine chosen to run the church/denom. I don't care if you are the 10th generation to serve in any specific church and your parents and grandparents are all in leadership positions. YOUR relationship with God is NOT through ANYONE but Jesus, as led by the Holy Spirit and if you are waiting... GO WHERE God will have you wait no more. If God says stand still in the church you are at in answer to ALL your prayers in seeking/desire and waiting... then stand fast. There is the possibility He's about to show who's in charge and despite the persecution you WILL experience from those who would rather hold to any false doctrine, YOU WILL be used by God to both SHOW and inform (give testimony) to many for the Glory of God.

Persecution is not any fun, SPECIALLY coming from the Body of Christ but, once God has answered your prayers and the wait is over... be ready to deal with the persecution. Many have been BOOTED out of their churches once they receive their Baptism of the Holy Spirit and can speak in tongues. Are you willing to deal with this persecution ALSO??? Are you ready to post on this board, all the testimonies of God moving in supernatural power THROUGH you... despite other members of this board persecuting the testimony???

If the answer is NO... I will venture to say, your wait will continue. If you ARE willing to be bold and testify and glorify God with such testimony and not back down from the persecution and when it happens, be ordered to leave your church... I will venture to say, your wait may be shorter then you think.

Once I began to surrender to God, it was well over a full year of seeking, praying, reading the scriptures, seeking, praying, reading the scriptures... the scriptures began to shed light as the power of the doctrine over me was lessened and my belief shifted from that doctrine to the Word of God. God led me to a new church. About 2 years later, I was speaking with a pastor who had been KICKED out of Seminary that was of the denom of the church God moved me OUT OF. This pastor had completed ALL of the Seminary but the final thesis he turned in, was all about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit active in the Body of Christ today... the Seminary school, booted him out.

I can see why God removed me from that denom before I was to experience the Holy Spirit gifts. I learned A WHOLE lot from that denom... but God was moving me to a level of relationship that the denom REFUSED to accept.

Remember... Jesus Himself could not heal many in Nazareth due to the lack of belief... now, COMPOUND that in any given church/denom with the ADDITIONAL push of unbelief through a BELIEF in a doctrine that says God don't do miracles anymore!! If you are in such a church... that is your answer why the church does not experience God moving in ANY supernatural way.

[Boo]

Thank you for taking the time to explain your position on this Slug.

The one issue that we will not see the same way is that I do not see that the bible says that those gifts exist any more. Not as signs for unbelievers, at any rate. While I know that God can perfom those miracles - tongues, healing, and prophecy - if He chooses; I have not seen that the bible says that anyone has them any longer. I also fail to see that anyone had them by the time the last Epistles were written. I also know that many have died from playing with Rattlesnakes, and that Jesus told Satan that we are not to tempt God.

I want to point out since you did not; the Holy Spirit's gifts are numerous. The only ones that I fail to see in existance any more of those three I mentioned. Nobody is denying any of the others.

The church I attended last Sunday is Pastored by a preacher that believes that the gift of tongues still exists. I have yet to have time to discuss why he believes that to be true. One day, I hope to find out.

I once had a preacher ask me to tell him which Apostle I would have been if I had beenn one of the twelve. It didn't take long for me to tell him the answer to that one; I would have been Thomas. I have always been that way and when I accept something as true, I firmly believe it. Is that wrong? Well, do we think Jesus made a mistake for picking Thomas to be an Apostle?

It is not a matter of believing the bible. I believe the source manuscripts and I have to accept that some had been altered. I accept that I can discern as being original text and go with it. That is the "Thomas" in me.

It has nothing to do with which church I go to or which preacher I listen to. When I believe something, it is not because any man told me what to believe.

[Slug1]

Thank you for taking the time to explain your position on this Slug.

In reading through your entire reply, you're position is clearer.

I'll make some comments in relation to the following comments that you made:

I also know that many have died from playing with Rattlesnakes, and that Jesus told Satan that we are not to tempt God.

Amen... do you know what the context of this scripture is?

Mark 16:¹⁵ And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. ¹⁶ He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. ¹⁷ And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; ¹⁸ they^[b] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

First I will show you the context of this scripture (divided with scripture from Acts 28) and then I will challenge you with another question. First the context and the point that context makes: The context of this scripture and all elements of the context of this scripture concerns the spreading of the Gospel of Christ. When a person is LED by the Holy Spirit to spread the Gospel of Christ, the context of this scripture also reveals to us what work the Holy Spirit DOES as well. One of these is about the PROTECTION of those who are spreading the Gospel of Christ.

We also have a single example of this in the Bible... oh, you also stated that toward the end of the Epistles, there were no more signs... well, in Acts 28 is found a sign based on the Mark 16 scriptures. I want to point out to you that WHILE all the Epistles were being written, the timeline of the Book of Acts is ALL during that period. So while we IMMEDIATELY read Acts after the four Gospels in sequence, to say that there are no more signs toward the end of the Epistles is not actually the truth because Acts spans all the Epistles.

Acts 28:³ But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand. ⁴ So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live.” ⁵ But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm.

We find this context. Since the context is about spreading the Gospel, Paul was used with that specific sign as foretold by Jesus.

So... this brings me to my comment concerning people dying from rattlesnakes. You are absolutely correct that we are not to test God. The Bible is clear... pick up snakes + get bit = death. Those today who play with snakes are following a Spirit of ERROR. They are not following the Spirit of TRUTH. Sure, many live, but how else is this Spirit of ERROR (satan) gonna deceive people with false signs/wonders?

So... don't allow the WORK of the Spirit of Error to cloud your understanding of scripture. By the way... when I was under the cessationist doctrine, I always brought up the snake thing too. Remember how I testified that during the year+ long period of time God was freeing me, there was a lot of praying and reading of the Bible... this is one of the points the Holy Spirit worked me through and illuminated the scriptures and from that point on, the Rattlesnake abuse in the world DID NOT hinder me anymore. Praise God.

So... as the Holy Spirit illuminated scripture to me, I will help you... are those who handle snakes being led in the Spirit of Truth or in the Spirit of Error. What is the fruit produced by those who handle snakes and die. I will tell you this... fruit production is about DOUBT. ANYONE who sees the fruit of snake handlers are led to DOUBT scriptures dealing with signs/wonders. Ya "don't" think that this the PLAN for the Spirit of Error? Kill enough people being used in FALSE sign/wonders and throw a major portion of the Body of Christ into a state of DOUBT and UNbelief??

Are these snake handlers DOING the Great Commission? NO, they are not... so please, do the math on this and allow the Holy Spirit to lead you to understanding and remove your doubt and unbelief.

Now, here is the challenge because while the Holy Spirit was challenging me to pursue the TRUTH of scripture... this is basically what He ministered in a question:

Why would Jesus inform the Body of Christ that all those signs would follow, if there is going to be a point in time, I'd stop manifesting them all? Why would I manifest protection for those who are not doing the work of the Great Commission?

When this all filled my heart and my mind in a desire to understand why WOULD Jesus tell us one thing, and people say another or DO another????

Those signs have not ended and since one is tongues, what about knowledge and prophecy? I testified I found myself led by the Holy Spirit and desired the gift of knowledge and wisdom. I prayed every day until a prophet came to me and told me what I was praying was heard by God and answered... so how can a prophet even know I'm silently praying for these gifts of the Holy Spirit and speak to me what God was telling them to speak to me in an answer and edification???

For all those who speak in supernatural tongues, or speak words of knowledge when they have NO CLUE except by what the Holy Spirit reveals as knowledge, or for a person to speak an edifying prophetic word that when tested, is true or comes to pass... how is this possible if those gifts are ended?

Since you have no experience of this, don't mean this is not happening all throughout the Body of Christ. Since this IS happening all throughout the Body of Christ... maybe you really need to seek God and ask different questions than what you are presently doing.

I read your posts, I see you say you are seeking but at the same time... refusing to believe. So, YES... you are a Thomas in that sense.

Seeing is NOT believing... believing is believing. That is why Jesus corrected Thomas about his unbelief due to not seeing. UNbelief is the FRUIT of doubt. So if there is any UNbelief, the root is DOUBT.


Here is the next point you make...

I want to point out since you did not; the Holy Spirit's gifts are numerous. The only ones that I fail to see in existance any more of those three I mentioned. Nobody is denying any of the others.

Based on ALL I wrote in that other super long post, and now also in this one... it was CLEAR why I (at that time) and you presently... fail to see the existence of those three signs today in the world. I too never SAW any of those gifts in action (and explained WHY in that last post)... so to me and the fact I never "saw"... I didn't believe and the power of a doctrine strengthened upon my heart, covered my eyes, shut my ears and guided the words coming out of my mouth.


I guess this is all that is needed... I just got a call from some local news crew wanting to interview me due to the purchasing of a school we are closing on with plans to move our church into that building... pray for me, I really HATE interviews like this.

edit: wow... sorry for the length again, now that I see it posted, I didn't realize it would be this long

[Boo]

I am really pleased that you take the time to present your thoughts on all this, Slug. I hope you can see that I am paying attentiont to what you are writing, and that most of what you are saying; I have read before in my efforts to understand all of this.

First of all, I have real doubts that Mark 16, after verse 8, was actually part of the original text. I am very much a literalist and, to me, the words count as words until I can see a reason to take them as referring to something else. In short, I don't believe that those instructions in Mark 16 came from Jesus. I think they were addedd by an overenthusiastic scribe who did not like the original ending.

Secondly, I also don't believe that Acts spanned the entire time of the epistles. The evidence is very strong that it included the period only up until Paul was imprisoned in Rome. Several other epistles were written afterwards. While we don't have a dated document to go by, the content within Acts itself shows certain major events not mentioned in the book.

When looking at historical data about the church - but by no means an avid scholar of church history - I see that the whole "sign-gifts" manifestation is not that old. I have read other historical works that claim that the whole idea of the "gift of prophecy" came back into play within the last 200 years and the other charismatic gifts started later than that. Before that period, it was not a movement amoung Christians. While individuals dealt with their personal beliefs, it did not become a denomination until around 1900 with the Assembly of God churches. I guess one could say that it is because we finally believe the bible or one could say that people just like the idea that the sign-gifts are being reinstated? (That "believe the bible" statement - not a good one to use on people. I guarantee you that I believe the bible.)

I guess, my brother, that God will have to show me what to believe. The persuation of men won't do it for me as there is too much evidence to the contrary. It is not a matter of wanting to believe one thing or another. It is a matter of letting God show me His desires and His plan. The Holy Spirit is very active in my life - I see His leading and His help all the time. My growth and understanding increase as I live daily, so perhaps one day, if it is a valid belief, perhaps i'll be shown those gifts as well.

As for spiritual gifts, there is no claim coming from me that miracle healing has stopped. It is only "faith healers" that I don't accept. I do not claim that the "gift of tongues" has stopped - it is not nearly as wide-spread as people want us to believe. It is the private prayer language that I don't accept - that is an interpretation of scripture; not a statement in scripture. I do believe in the moanings of the heart when words can't find a way to express our hurts and cries. Our minds are still active in that kind of praying. I do not believe that anyone has the gift of prophecy (in tongues or in native language)- referring to being given truths by God to pass on to the world. If that was the case, then we'd have to add those truths to scripture. I don't think many of us believe that God would approve of that.

If God gets tired of my being wrong in this, He knows how to teach a person like me. If I am correct, then I need no correction from God.

I really hope you understand that I pray for knowledge and understanding all the time. Your writing indicates that you think I am not. You would be incorrect to believe that. Maybe it is not I who misunderstands. Despite all of that, I accept our differences without any ill feelings. We follow the same Christ as we each understand, do we not?

Thanks again for your time and your explanations, may God bless your day.
Your brother in Christ,
Boo

[Slug1]

We follow the same Christ as we each understand, do we not?

Amen!

Thanks again for your time and your explanations, may God bless your day.
Your brother in Christ,
Boo

I was gonna break your post down section by section but I'll just post it all in one lump post. Plus a portion that has been written up in the past.

That Mark 16 scriptures are contested... I contested those specific verses, you guessed it... when I was under doctrine. However, for me it was the casting out of demons that mainly sent me into flaming tailspins. Demons were of the past, JUST LIKE all the gifts of the Holy Spirit were all "in the past". Done, finished, no need... ALL of them in my understanding... not just tongues/knowledge/prophecy.

You read parts of my testimony above... parts that I don't include in the testimony I have posted in the "Testimonies" forum on this site.

So... when I surrendered and began to pray, seek, read the Bible, pray, seek, read and the bondage's from various doctrines that held me prisoner began to loosen, let me walk you through what the Holy Spirit walked me through.

You see... if those Mark 16 scriptures that are contested never were in the Bible, the Holy Spirit pointed out that it would not matter. They are... a consolidation of "other" scriptures. I was confused, of course... so I went into the Bible where the Holy Spirit led me.

Now, as I said, this didn't specifically deal with tongues/knowledge/prophecy but about my doubt and unbelief concerning demons. Today, I can TRULY say WHY I was led through the Bible as I was by the Holy Spirit... back then, I was in surrender, the Holy Spirit was teaching me and I was in obedience. I did not know the "WHY" back then.

If the consolidation of those scriptures in Mark 16 never were in the Bible... they actually still are, and here is what was pointed out as I was led...

First, the Holy Spirit used my own tactics against me because I used to say... "You can't build a doctrine with one or two scriptures"... So the Holy Spirit ministered to me that the cessationist doctrine is based on only ONE single doctrine. It took AWHILE but I was finally CONVICTED of that truth and how the cessationist doctrine is centered on 1 Cor 13:10... I tossed what I believed, OUT the door. Let me tell you, it wasn't easy (too much of pride and too little of Humbleness)... maybe why it took a little over a year for this process of learning and at the same time, also learning to LISTEN to the Holy Spirit.

So... the Holy Spirit walked me through the Bible and how scripture built UP TO that Mark 16 scriptures. Now, I wrote this out for another thread some time last year I think, or early this year. So just bear with the context of addressing another person and not you.

First He informs the Body of Christ that He'll be establishing a Body that will have authority and this will be reflected by the empowerment He gives us. Please read this scripture:


Mark 3:14 Then He appointed twelve,[a] that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach, 15 and to have power to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons:

With this established for the Body of Christ, He then allowed just the 12 disciples to heal and cast out. Please read these scriptures:

Mark 6: 12 So they went out and preached that people should repent. 13 And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.

Matthew 10:1 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

Once Jesus had this established for the Body of Christ, He then did this again but this time with a whole bunch more disciples. Please read these scriptures:

Luke 10: 1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also,[a] and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.

v17 Then the seventy[e] returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”

So... what about tomorrow's Body of Christ (IOW's today)... all those who came after the Apostles?

Is Christ in all who are part of the Body of Christ?

Is it Jesus who is actually casting out the demons and this is by the authority He's given to us by His name?

Please read this scripture:


Luke 13:32 And He said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.’

Then Jesus finally does give the Commission to the Body of Christ, for us to follow as the 12 did first, then all those other 70, now... us!

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[a] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

So... you say that the Mark 16 scripture means nothing even though there are many scriptures that support the meaning of those scriptures from Mark. If the Mark 16 scripture NEVER existed, the message of all those others mean the SAME message as the CONSOLIDATED Mark 16, means!!

You can deny the Mark 16 scriptures but that means you must also deny the course of scripture laid out leading up to the Body of Christ. That is TODAY'S Body of Christ and TOMORROW'S Body of Christ actually.

See all those, "they's" and "those's" and the one "them" in that Mark 16 scriptures? All of they/those/them, are you, me, everyone in the Body of Christ.

So... it's not doctrine at all... it's called, OBEDIENCE to the Word of God!! So just get out there in the world and DO what the Commission says to do.

Doctrine is what MAKES people in the Body of Christ deny the scriptures.

Let me show you something else that I pray OPENS your eyes. Please read these scriptures:

Mark 9: 38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

Luke 9:49 Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.”

Now, this is what I'd like to open your eyes to... You see how the 12 disciples complained to Jesus and basically whined that others were casting out demon's in His name... complaining because those doing "their" work were not following Jesus.

Think about this long and hard... pray about this while you weigh this:

YOU are doing what those 12 inexperienced (at that time in their growth with Christ) disciples did. They didn't have much or ANY experience and they see others casting out demons and they TRIED TO STOP THEM, just like you are trying to stop all who you encounter who are out in the world who happen to cast out demons!!!

You really need to open your eyes to this... just because you are inexperienced doesn't mean that others in the Body of Christ have to stop because you don't accept it.

Casting out demons is a "part" of the Commission. A part you... deny.

So... as I said earlier, TODAY I understand why the Holy Spirit led me through all that first and of course, while I was in full submission... pointed out the other sign gifts which include tongues/knowledge/prophecy so it was much easier to submit myself to the truth about all that too. Anyway, the reason was because God led me to be a part of a Deliverance Ministry and let me tell you... if a person can't listen to what the Holy Spirit is SPECIFICALLY telling you, such a ministry is NO PLACE for a person not in complete submission to God.

God had a plan... He just had to shake me from my very foundations to get me aligned with the plan.

I just read so much of what you say, or what other MORE hardcore cessationists say and it's all reruns to me, I SAID ALL the same stuff or all I did was look at "history"... back when I was bound up in doctrine. I was looking at everything EXCEPT God Himself, I was believing everything except the Bible.

So... got ya in prayer tonight before I turn in

[Boo]

I hear ya. I believe that you believe that you NOW are in full submission to God. That is an important thing for us to believe in, that's for sure.

May I ask you one simple question, then? Do you believe that the "gift of prophecy" which amounts to being given guidance by God for all of mankind still exists today?

That's all I am wanting to know.

By the way, I'll have you know that I also believe I am in full submission to God. I am still learning, still maturing, still being trained up for service, but in no way am I NOT in submission.

Thanks for your prayers. May God pour his blessings on you.

By the way, I am not as much of a "cessationist" as it may appear. I am just reluctant to accept the way people have taken those gifts and made them into something that they were never intended to be.

[WITDNM]

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[a] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Slug, do you believe you can drink anything deadly and it will not hurt you?

[Slug1]

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[a] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Slug, do you believe you can drink anything deadly and it will not hurt you?

I've addressed this in the thread...

[Slug1]

By the way, I am not as much of a "cessationist" as it may appear. I am just reluctant to accept the way people have taken those gifts and made them into something that they were never intended to be.

Amen... cessationists are those who completely deny the power of God, due to the bondage of that doctrine over them. Cessation"ism" comes in various degrees it seems. I was one of the hardcore who denied ALL and any gift of the Holy Spirit or power and spiritual authority that Christians may exercise as God gifts the Body of Christ.

I hear ya. I believe that you believe that you NOW are in full submission to God. That is an important thing for us to believe in, that's for sure.

Let me clarify... I would use the term "in obedience" to God. Believe me, "full" submission? No... I resisted a pastoral calling for a couple years. So to use the description of "FULL" concerning submission or obedience, is not an accurate term. However, in anything God let's me know what He wants done and I DO submit to His will... THEN, I am in FULL obedience and submission and by faith, I've jumped off what seemed like cliffs and everything was great after the jump into the unknown. God put that pastoral door before me a few years ago and only about 8 months ago, did I step through.

May I ask you one simple question, then? Do you believe that the "gift of prophecy" which amounts to being given guidance by God for all of mankind still exists today?

That's all I am wanting to know.

YES! I bet if I leave this hanging with just a yes... that wouldn't be a good thing huh?

I've discussed this in previous threads so here are some more quoted posts from the past. They will explain my YES answer of how God continues to utilize men and women of God who are given the gift of prophecy. Let me put this in beforehand though... "PROPHECY" or the gift OF Prophecy, according to scripture is about edification, revealing what is a secret of the heart (1 Cor 12-14, mainly 14). So when a "prophetic" word is received by a person who has been given this gift and exercises this gift... they are not adding to or rewriting anything that is NEW, concerning the Bible. Everything received and also spoken, must be supported by the Bible. We (the Body of Christ) "test" by the scriptures. So... with that said, here are two previous posts:

One of the greatest prophetic words spoken was of a word of edification! Foretelling of the future or anything like that is what people think prophetic words is ALL about.

The edification I'm talking about was through Nathan when he brought that prophetic word to David because David had committed that sin revolving all around Bathsheba. This prophetic word is in 2 Sam 12... the only element of foretelling was about the death of the son. Many don't even realize that some of the strongest forms of EDIFICATION that can come from God is through a prophet when they are sent to a person to tell them that they DID WRONG!!!

Many of the "prophets" out there in the world speak nothing but prosperity/peace because that is what people want to hear... same as it was back with Israel and God spoke out AGAINST the false prophets then, the SAME as He's speaking out against the false prophets today when true prophets speak.

The form of edification that David received was of "CORRECTION" as Nathan spoke that prophetic word to him and guess what... the prophetic WORD did EXACTLY what it was supposed to do, it TURNED David away from his error!!

A true prophet may visit many churches today and speak edification in the form of a corrective "prophetic" word and they are RUN out. Worse... a true prophet begins to speak and they are run out before they can finish the prophetic word from God because the doctrine of the church states that there is no more prophecy and since they all don't believe, they run the prophet out.

The worse of worse... they call the prophet and the word spoken, of the devil because their doctrine says there is no more prophecy. Prophecy is only possible due to the empowerment of the Holy Spirit and if anyone says a prophet and the word they bring forth from God (a true prophet) is of the devil, they've committed blasphemy. Till the end of their lives... they will continue to remain bound in their church and it's doctrine and they are lost and don't even know it.

As for a prophet bringing a prophetic word of correction as Nathan did, even today... I've experienced this myself. Some years ago, I was sinning and God sent a prophet, the sin was spoken to me and much more but no need to get into that. One of the reasons I'm here today is because of God's love and mercy and because of an obedient prophet that came to me and God spoke to me.

As you can understand, based on the scriptures and the situation of David's sin and Nathan bringing that word of edification TO HIM from God... when prophets do this today, this is supported by the scriptures. The prophet who came to me and spoke to me and brought me the message God had for me about my sin way back when... no scripture is being "rewritten, added to, changed, etc. Those who DENY the prophetic gift of the Holy Spirit SIMPLY SAY that any prophetic word given is altering scripture... it's not. Not the REAL DEAL, Holy Spirit led kind. There are MANY false prophets, we're warned about this in the Bible as well and when one speaks and it does ADD to or change scripture, or simply is against scripture... well, such a test against scripture shows such prophetic words are FALSE. Also, if a timeline is given and the timeline fails... that means the prophetic word fails the test and is deemed FALSE.

Here is the other post:

Here is another good example of what God will use a prophet for and how prophecy is used today.

1 Sam 9:5 Now the LORD had told Samuel in his ear the day before Saul came, saying, 16 “Tomorrow about this time I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him commander over My people Israel, that he may save My people from the hand of the Philistines; for I have looked upon My people, because their cry has come to Me.” 17 So when Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said to him, “There he is, the man of whom I spoke to you. This one shall reign over My people.” 18 Then Saul drew near to Samuel in the gate, and said, “Please tell me, where is the seer’s house?” 19 Samuel answered Saul and said, “I am the seer. Go up before me to the high place, for you shall eat with me today; and tomorrow I will let you go and will tell you all that is in your heart.

Now... we all know there won't be any prophet of God anointing any kings these days but the point is when we get to verse 19. Samuel is been given by God what has been placed into Saul's heart by God. He don't know it yet and will never know it until God reveals it and God chooses to use a prophet to tell Saul the secrets of his heart.

This is explained to us when Paul is discipling the Corinthians about "prophecy".

1 Cor 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus[c] the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

So many say that this scripture is ONLY about those who have no faith in God. This scripture is about those who are unbelieving and/or are uninformed. Many faithful to God are COMPLETELY unbelieving in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and so many more are UNinformed. Prophecy can be used by God to make believers of those who are unbelievers and also, INform those who are uninformed. God can use a prophet to tell a person what is in their heart as in a sin (as I posted earlier about) or reveal a plan that God has placed into motion and this will illuminate the desire within a person's heart to follow that plan.

God doesn't always do it this way, but don't think He can't or WON'T do it this way.

He can and He does today.

I've had prophets give me a prophetic word about my future and they have come to pass. I was prophesied over on 15 May 2009 and it wasn't until Oct 2009 I began to see the prophecy beginning to come to pass and then fully came to pass in Feb 10. God is clearly still utilizing prophets today. But just like with a majority of Israel (past and present) not listening, a majority of the Body of Christ... doesn't either.

[WITDNM]

I've addressed this in the thread...

You mean where you addressed intentionally handling snakes? Paul was unharmed in Acts 28 because he was on a gospel mission and was accidentally bit? If while teaching on this thread you reached for a soft drink and accidentally drank poison would you be unharmed?

Why is it testing God to intentionally handle snakes or intentionally drink poison, expecting to be unharmed, but it is not testing God to intentionally lay hands on the sick, expecting them to be healed as Paul did in Acts 28:8-9?