HS Baptism by Jesus (Matt 3:11) and HS Baptism by the HS (1 Cor12:13)

[John146]

You made it sound like you completely disagreed with everything I posted.

Come on. Do you think I'm not a Christian? What Christian would disagree with what is written in scripture? We all agree with what is written, but we just don't all interpret it the same way. Why would you think I or anyone else here would try to say that we disagreed with any scripture?

I did not think that was the case so I asked for clarification...that's all.

That shouldn't be necessary.

The point is this. Jesus did miracles, confirming He was the Son of God. Some of them are written down. Enough to convince us of His claims. He does not need to come to earth and do another one.

I don't see how that really has much, if anything, to do with what we're talking about in this thread.

The Apostles and other believers did miracles to confirm their preaching.

They preached from the Old Testament scriptures so the miracles confirmed what they were preaching from the Old Testament. Why can't the same be true today when someone preaches from the New Testament?

Some of them are written down. Enough to convince us of the validity of the Gospel. We have the complete written word of God. No new revelation. No need for miracles to confirm.

Since miracles helped confirm what was written in the OT then why can't they help confirm what is written in the NT as well?

[WITDNM]

I truly have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about those positions being "made with scripture". Does the Holy Spirit play no role in making someone an evangelist, pastor or teacher? Do people not have to be gifted for those roles? I would say of course they do. So, I don't understand what you're trying to say here at all.

Rather than "made with scripture" I wish I had worded it "thoroughly equipped by scripture" since that is closer to the words Paul used in II Timothy 3:17.

[John146]

Sorry, my punctuation was bad here. It should have read like this.

Do you believe all the gifts in 6-8 are all the result of either Holy Spirit baptism or the laying on of the Apostles hands, that is, miraculous spiritual gifts?

If I understand you correctly, you don't believe these are all miraculous spiritual gifts.

I'm not really sure what you're asking here. I suppose one could say that all spiritual gifts are miraculous since they are given by the Holy Spirit but I don't know if you're speaking in that sense or not. So, for clarity's sake please define "miraculous spiritual gifts" and then I'll answer your question.

[John146]

Rather than "made with scripture" I wish I had worded it "thoroughly equipped by scripture" since that is closer to the words Paul used in II Timothy 3:17.

So, you think there is no need for the Holy Spirit to give people the ability to be a teacher? Everyone who reads scripture is automatically qualified to be a teacher? Does everyone in the church today play the same role in the church? Is the following no longer true?

Romans 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

[steelcurtain76]

The Apostles and other believers did miracles to confirm their preaching. Some of them are written down. Enough to convince us of the validity of the Gospel. We have the complete written word of God. No new revelation. No need for miracles to confirm.

Jumping in here late, but I don't agree with what I have put in Bold above.

We have the same command from the Lord to teach the gospel to those we come in contact with. In some cases, these people are strong unbelievers. Why would the Lord not give us the same tools to show them the validity of what we say is the truth of the gospel?

I was once a cessasionist and misused verses, especially 1 Corinthians 13 and Acts 8, when I taught that the gifts had ceased. My background is in the churches of Christ and they primarily teach this. When I witnessed my wife receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit nearly 2 years ago and she began speaking in Tongues, it convicted me of a false belief on my part and completely changed my view of the gifts in the New Testament being ceased. My wife was as skeptical as I was when she received this gift. I asked her after it happened if she manipulated it at all and she said no. It happened at a Pentacostal church where a man walked up to her and put his hand on her head and said "sister, let the Spirit speak" and it came out like a river. She had never prayed for this gift nor was she seeking it when it happened.

What I do know is that any effort on my part to explain what happened away would be a sin. I knew right then and there that my understanding of the verses I previously used to preach that the gifts had ceased was wrong.

The same conviction that happened to me could very well happen to a believer or an unbeliever through the gifts listed within the New Testament.

[JohnWagner]

I have what I call a Baptism Logic Table on my web site where I discuss Holy Spirit baptism. The table was originally presented by a professor of mine at Central Bible College. It compares three "baptisms" mentioned in the New Testament: water baptism, the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ at salvation, and the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The purpose of the table is to show, graphically, that each baptism, because of the differences in clearly stated specifics, is a different and distinct event.

The items that are compared are:

Who is doing the baptizing...
The element the baptizer is using to perform the baptism...
The physical evidence of the baptism having been completed...

I can't produce the table here, but you can view it on our site if you wish.


At Salvation: 1 Corinthians 12:13

"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free-and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

2 Corinthians 5:17

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Observations:

At the moment of salvation the new believer is baptized "by" the Holy Spirit "into" the Body of Christ. The "evidence" of salvation is a changed life.

Water Baptism Acts 8:35-38

"Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him." KJV

Observations:

At water baptism the believer is baptized "by" a pastor, minister, or priest, "in" water. The "evidence" of water baptism is obviously, getting wet.

Holy Spirit Baptism John 1:32-34

"Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, `The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."

Acts 2:3-4

"All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them."

Observations:

At the baptism in the Holy Spirit the believer is baptized "by" Jesus Christ "in" the Holy Spirit. The "evidence" of being baptized in the Holy Spirit, according to Acts 2:4, Acts 10:44-46, and Acts 19:6, is speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.

Summary:

When the specifics of the Scriptures are considered, it becomes obvious that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not the baptism which takes place at a person's salvation. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is as distinct and different an event in a believer's life as salvation and water baptism are. The distinctives of these three occurrances must be understood and clearly delineated.

A final note here: Do not confuse the Gifts of the Spirit which are imparted by the Holy Spirit severally as He wills, and the speaking in tongues of the initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit is not the Gift of tongues. But that is another discussion.

[WITDNM]

I have what I call a Baptism Logic Table on my web site where I discuss Holy Spirit baptism. The table was originally presented by a professor of mine at Central Bible College. It compares three "baptisms" mentioned in the New Testament: water baptism, the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ at salvation, and the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The purpose of the table is to show, graphically, that each baptism, because of the differences in clearly stated specifics, is a different and distinct event.

The items that are compared are:

Who is doing the baptizing...
The element the baptizer is using to perform the baptism...
The physical evidence of the baptism having been completed...

I can't produce the table here, but you can view it on our site if you wish.


At Salvation: 1 Corinthians 12:13

"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free-and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

2 Corinthians 5:17

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Observations:

At the moment of salvation the new believer is baptized "by" the Holy Spirit "into" the Body of Christ. The "evidence" of salvation is a changed life.

Water Baptism Acts 8:35-38

"Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him." KJV

Observations:

At water baptism the believer is baptized "by" a pastor, minister, or priest, "in" water. The "evidence" of water baptism is obviously, getting wet.

Holy Spirit Baptism John 1:32-34

"Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, `The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."

Acts 2:3-4

"All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them."

Observations:

At the baptism in the Holy Spirit the believer is baptized "by" Jesus Christ "in" the Holy Spirit. The "evidence" of being baptized in the Holy Spirit, according to Acts 2:4, Acts 10:44-46, and Acts 19:6, is speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.

Summary:

When the specifics of the Scriptures are considered, it becomes obvious that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not the baptism which takes place at a person's salvation. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is as distinct and different an event in a believer's life as salvation and water baptism are. The distinctives of these three occurrances must be understood and clearly delineated.

A final note here: Do not confuse the Gifts of the Spirit which are imparted by the Holy Spirit severally as He wills, and the speaking in tongues of the initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit is not the Gift of tongues. But that is another discussion.

Which of these, if any, is the "one baptism" of Ephesians 4:5?

[WITDNM]

We have the same command from the Lord to teach the gospel to those we come in contact with. In some cases, these people are strong unbelievers. Why would the Lord not give us the same tools to show them the validity of what we say is the truth of the gospel?

I think we all agree the signs/wonders/miracles followed the Apostles and other believers, confirming the word. Mark 16:20 & Hebrews 2:3-4

For the sake of this discussion, I'm going to concede the point and agree the signs continue to follow believers today. Friends, if we truly believe the signs were to confirm the word, we have a huge problem.

We have believers teaching that "Jesus only" is God, only one person in the godhead. They have the signs/wonders/miracles. Other believers teach there are three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in the godhead. They too have signs/wonders/miracles. The Christian Science folks teach that sin and sickness are illusions, good and evil are not real, there is no devil. They had a prophet, Mary Baker Eddy, and their handbook has pages and pages of signs/wonders/miracles. Then there are the Mormons, Catholics and many others, teaching diverse things and claiming signs/wonders/miracles.

It seems our God is a god of confusion, but we know that is not true. The atheists and infidels look at this and wag their heads. We must sort this out. How do we do it?

[Slug1]

I think we all agree the signs/wonders/miracles followed the Apostles and other believers, confirming the word. Mark 16:20 & Hebrews 2:3-4

For the sake of this discussion, I'm going to concede the point and agree the signs continue to follow believers today. Friends, if we truly believe the signs were to confirm the word, we have a huge problem.

Define "we".

We have believers teaching that "Jesus only" is God, only one person in the godhead. They have the signs/wonders/miracles. Other believers teach there are three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in the godhead. They too have signs/wonders/miracles. The Christian Science folks teach that sin and sickness are illusions, good and evil are not real, there is no devil. They had a prophet, Mary Baker Eddy, and their handbook has pages and pages of signs/wonders/miracles. Then there are the Mormons, Catholics and many others, teaching diverse things and claiming signs/wonders/miracles.

It seems our God is a god of confusion, but we know that is not true. The atheists and infidels look at this and wag their heads. We must sort this out. How do we do it?

Since this is not true... then why allow such problems to get between ourselves and God?

False teaching and also false signs/wonder do not cause confusion when a person tests them. Testing them is done so there is no confusion. Confusion is made MANIFEST when the testing is done through doctrine and NOT done through the Word of God. Confusion is made when one false teaching is compared to another false teaching. Confusion is made when the events from a person like this Mary Baker Eddy is raised in discussions about God and the signs/wonders that He does today out there in the world.

WITDNM why do you want to always talk about the false stuff and not about the Word of God and what God is doing out there in the world?

From experience, this is "a" reason, which may not be your reason but this is "A" reason: because to openly discuss the Word of God and also face and discuss all the signs/wonders that He does out there in the world today MEANS... facing truth.

The truth many in the Body of Christ have come to put faith in because it is what's been taught to them all their lives by their "church"... is not the TRUTH of what God is doing today, out there in the world. So, to FACE the truth of what God is doing... they chose what they've been taught instead and DON'T face it.

Either God IS or He ISN'T doing signs/wonders today... if He isn't, then the truth is, He isn't. If He is, then the truth is... He is.

Just the fact that satan continues to do false signs/wonders to confuse people... SHOWS us something.

Do you know what that something is?

[Boo]

Which of these, if any, is the "one baptism" of Ephesians 4:5?

Actually, they are ALL the "one baptism." All three of those events - which is actually only two events - happen at the same time. The way that they are discussed make it appear to be three events.

At the time that the Holy Spirit baptism occured separately from the water baptism was during that short period when the Jews were being given a transition from law into grace. During the second half of the book of acts, it always happened at the same time as repentence/baptism. We seem to focus only on the transition period and ignore the baptisms that occur later on.

It is correct that there exists today only one baptism - and two events occur during that baptism. It cuts across the grain of conventional protestant doctrine to admit that, though, so I don't expect much agreement.

[WITDNM]

Define "we".

In the narrow since of this discussion, "we" is you and me, and the others who believe signs/wonders/miracles are still confirming the word. In a broader since, this is anyone who might be influenced by the signs/wonders/miracles of today.

Since this is not true... then why allow such problems to get between ourselves and God?

You don't think some head wagging goes on when we have the latest sighting of the virgin Mary on a piece of toast. Even a lot of Christians wag their heads at this.

False teaching and also false signs/wonder do not cause confusion when a person tests them. Testing them is done so there is no confusion. Confusion is made MANIFEST when the testing is done through doctrine and NOT done through the Word of God. Confusion is made when one false teaching is compared to another false teaching. Confusion is made when the events from a person like this Mary Baker Eddy is raised in discussions about God and the signs/wonders that He does today out there in the world.

I agree, we need to test, not with the doctrines of men, but with the word of God. Slug, take the word of God and teach us how to test, please.

WITDNM why do you want to always talk about the false stuff and not about the Word of God and what God is doing out there in the world?

Why, consider the numbers, more people are being deceived by the false signs than are being convinced by the true signs.

From experience, this is "a" reason, which may not be your reason but this is "A" reason: because to openly discuss the Word of God and also face and discuss all the signs/wonders that He does out there in the world today MEANS... facing truth.

The truth many in the Body of Christ have come to put faith in because it is what's been taught to them all their lives by their "church"... is not the TRUTH of what God is doing today, out there in the world. So, to FACE the truth of what God is doing... they chose what they've been taught instead and DON'T face it.

Either God IS or He ISN'T doing signs/wonders today... if He isn't, then the truth is, He isn't. If He is, then the truth is... He is.

Just the fact that satan continues to do false signs/wonders to confuse people... SHOWS us something.

Do you know what that something is?

It shows us Satan still has the power to deceive.

[Slug1]

In the narrow since of this discussion, "we" is you and me, and the others who believe signs/wonders/miracles are still confirming the word. In a broader since, this is anyone who might be influenced by the signs/wonders/miracles of today.

Hooah

You don't think some head wagging goes on when we have the latest sighting of the virgin Mary on a piece of toast. Even a lot of Christians wag their heads at this.

Have you ever tested such a "miracle"... if so, then you would not allow such false signs/wonders afflict you from what God is doing.

I agree, we need to test, not with the doctrines of men, but with the word of God. Slug, take the word of God and teach us how to test, please.

How can anyone in the Body of Christ who doubts and doesn't believe God does signs/miracles today, also be able to be surrendered to the Word of God in a way that will "enable" them to actually test the "spirits"?

Take one of the latest PRAISE threads in the Praise Forum that is titled: God Answered me Immediately. <<Click

Here is a pastor that struggled with signs/wonders today. He couldn't even properly organize a sermon about this topic (signs/wonders) due to his doubts. He surrendered though, and the sermon came together and he humbled himself before his ENTIRE congregation.

That man would NOT be be able to "test" the spirits before that surrender because there are parts of the scriptures he didn't accept nor understand DUE TO his personal beliefs and doubts.

You ask to be taught... I ask, you must FIRST surrender and then teaching can come from others but first the Holy Spirit will teach. EXACTLY like the Holy Spirit brought understanding to that pastor Saturday night before the Sunday Sermon. The Holy Spirit ILLUMINATED the true meaning of the scriptures to that man... same as He will do with ALL who are IN surrender to God and don't put doctrine and what they "see" between themselves and God.

There is more to "see" than JUST holy toast

Now that pastor is in a position to teach his congregation CORRECTLY!! As more and more in the congregation also surrender to God... the Holy Spirit will have the freedom to move freely without Unbelief hindering the supernatural flow of the Holy Spirit. Just like when UNbelief hindered the flow of supernatural power of Jesus Himself when He was in Nazareth.

I would expect resistance from some and even some will leave the church and go to churches that have the service under complete control (order). Sometimes "order" is what is creating POWERLESS churches because should the Holy Spirit move supernaturally, then that is OUT of their specific order and can't be from God.

Ya ever experience the leadership of a church begin fasting then all link up together later at church, shut all the doors, LOCK up the church and JUST PRAY to God seeking HIS order for the services?

How about a worship team doing this same thing seeking God for WHAT to sing and also for NEW song from Him?

Not many church leaders do this because they set their OWN order and God is not allowed to move. They pick the songs that the "people" like.

Anyway... That is all I can even suggest now concerning your request... and pray for you.

Why, consider the numbers, more people are being deceived by the false signs than are being convinced by the true signs.

To accurately address this, can you please define people. Are they worldly and not a part of the Body of Christ, or are you referring to those who are a part of the Body of Christ?

It shows us Satan still has the power to deceive.

Yet if God was truly not doing signs/wonders Himself... satan wouldn't be deceiving anyone, all he'd be doing is revealing himself if he's the ONLY source of supernatural power.

[Saved7]

Great post Slug. Unbelief is indeed a hindrance because when you don't believe in the power of God working through miracles, you are in essence REJECTING it. It's no different than an unbeliever rejecting the Gospel message due to unbelief, see how those two words, rejection and unbelief, work together to hinder the power of God? Even Romans 1 testifies that we have the CHOICE to believe in and follow God. If this is so would not that same logic spill over into gifts signs and miracles? Just because a person believes God for salvation doesn't mean he believes God still works through his saints with power. And that belief or lack of belief is all a matter of choice.
Maybe it is as my Pastor said, you choose not to believe for fear of disappointment. He said he would rather suffer disappointment and expect great things of God than and see some great things, than to expect little of God and never see great things.

I mean, in the end, you can't see and experience and be a part of the gifts if you reject them, just like you can't be saved if you reject Christ.

[boangry]

Jumping in here late, but I don't agree with what I have put in Bold above.

We have the same command from the Lord to teach the gospel to those we come in contact with. In some cases, these people are strong unbelievers. Why would the Lord not give us the same tools to show them the validity of what we say is the truth of the gospel?

I was once a cessasionist and misused verses, especially 1 Corinthians 13 and Acts 8, when I taught that the gifts had ceased. My background is in the churches of Christ and they primarily teach this. When I witnessed my wife receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit nearly 2 years ago and she began speaking in Tongues, it convicted me of a false belief on my part and completely changed my view of the gifts in the New Testament being ceased. My wife was as skeptical as I was when she received this gift. I asked her after it happened if she manipulated it at all and she said no. It happened at a Pentacostal church where a man walked up to her and put his hand on her head and said "sister, let the Spirit speak" and it came out like a river. She had never prayed for this gift nor was she seeking it when it happened.

What I do know is that any effort on my part to explain what happened away would be a sin. I knew right then and there that my understanding of the verses I previously used to preach that the gifts had ceased was wrong.

The same conviction that happened to me could very well happen to a believer or an unbeliever through the gifts listed within the New Testament.

I find it interesting that you were a cessasionist and skeptical of sign gifts and even taught from scripture they had ceased from the viewpoint that I am a cessasionist and am skeptical (dont believe) of signs and wonders existing today. Just a couple of questions, only if you dont mind

You said your wife was skeptical as you, but did she prior to receiving the gift believe speaking in tongues happens today?

you said

What I do know is that any effort on my part to explain what happened away would be a sin

If I witnessed my wife speak in tongues I would not believe her, I would interrogate her for years(lol) or rather I would hold scripture as a higher authority as to what is true. To the point I may well be the last person on earth who believes what I believe, except of course if she showed me my error in the understanding of Gods Word!

Is it possible since your wife were in a pentecostal church you were already persuaded that tongues exist today?

Why is it a sin to explain what happened or question what happened? scriptures please?

[boangry]

They preached from the Old Testament scriptures so the miracles confirmed what they were preaching from the Old Testament. Why can't the same be true today when someone preaches from the New Testament?

Since miracles helped confirm what was written in the OT then why can't they help confirm what is written in the NT as well?

I just want to clarify, Whenever Gods word was new or changed He authenticated it with signs and wonders with regards to Israel who had the oracles of God.
for example when Moses went to the elders of Israel and said they had to leave Egypt they asked him to prove that his Words were from God (since they have no idea what Gods words are for they were not written) which Moses did with signs.
The other reason which I dont have time to explain, maybe later, was to prove that one was indeed the Word of God or the Messiah. And Jesus performed signs to prove He was the messiah even though the pharisee's rejected him, and asked for more signs.

Anyway I dont think that after the OT scriptures were complete people needed miracles to confirm what was written, just like I dont need miracles to confirm what is written in the NT, all I needed to have faith was to hear and believe, So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. and Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.