If Adam and Eve hadnt sinned would they still be alive today?

[glad4mercy]

Is this The Plan that Fenris spoke about?

I'm not sure about what Fenris is referring to, but I do agree with him that God had a wonderful plan in place all along. God sent Christ to die and rise again, so that He could lavish us with His Love. Through Christ, not only are we forgiven, cleansed, and given eternal life, we are also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, and to receive an inheritance. In addition, we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has foreordained that we should walk in them. ( Ephesians 2: 10)

Isnt it amazing that He knew us and loved us long before we were ever born.

[jayne]

Well thank you..

I dont think for a second that God knew they would sin.. He gave them free will and let them decide. It was his right as their creator.

To think that God purposely put a temptation in their view knowing they would sin, would be saying that God was just playing games.. not only with them but all of humanity as well... Humans dont even set out to create something that would fail. Why would HE ever do something so cruel? ... But maybe some think this way.. how sad for God.

Ally, of course God knew that Adam and Eve would sin. Job 37:16 says that God's knowledge is perfect. He knew that they would sin, when they would sin, and how they would sin before He created them. If He didn't know, then His knowledge would not be perfect and that would mean that God would have a flaw. If He had a flaw, then that would mean that He could not be God.

Also, it isn't that He suspected that they would sin and tempted them with the fruit like fisherman tempts fish with a lure. The fisherman just has to hope the fish takes the bait and wait patiently. God didn't just sit back and wait and watch for them to sin like a scientist experimenting with lab rats.

Temptation doesn't come from God. The Bible says so. God gave them a law to obey. The serpent/devil brought the temptation - not God.

The question then remains if God knew this would happen, why did He set it all in motion. Therein lies another thread.

[allyc33]

Ally, of course God knew that Adam and Eve would sin. Job 37:16 says that God's knowledge is perfect. He knew that they would sin, when they would sin, and how they would sin before He created them. If He didn't know, then His knowledge would not be perfect and that would mean that God would have a flaw. If He had a flaw, then that would mean that He could not be God.

Also, it isn't that He suspected that they would sin and tempted them with the fruit like fisherman tempts fish with a lure. The fisherman just has to hope the fish takes the bait and wait patiently. God didn't just sit back and wait and watch for them to sin like a scientist experimenting with lab rats.

Temptation doesn't come from God. The Bible says so. God gave them a law to obey. The serpent/devil brought the temptation - not God.

The question then remains if God knew this would happen, why did He set it all in motion. Therein lies another thread.

So your saying God didnt just suspect Adam and Eve would sin, He KNEW they would sin.. and this was "in a sense" His plan for us?

God set the wheels in motion for a life that would bring just what He knew it would bring... a "knowing" life of grief and sorrow, war, crime, starvation, disease and eventually death for thousands of years..

His plan was to watch his Son suffer and die a horrible, excruciating death on the cross while he cried out in pain to his Father.
Why?.... so he could save us and lavish us with love ....

This was His wonderful plan.? Sounds like Munchhausers by proxy to me.

[Mark F]

So your saying God didnt just suspect Adam and Eve would sin, He KNEW they would sin.. and this was "in a sense" His plan for us?

God set the wheels in motion for a life that would bring just what He knew it would bring... a "knowing" life of grief and sorrow, war, crime, starvation, disease and eventually death for thousands of years..

His plan was to watch his Son suffer and die a horrible, excruciating death on the cross while he cried out in pain to his Father.
Why?.... so he could save us and lavish us with love ....

This was His wonderful plan.? Sounds like Munchhausers by proxy to me.

The transcendent God entered His creation, was murdered by them to save them, and yet they still reject Him.

The cross of Christ was not a tragedy, it was an accomplishment.

[allyc33]

The transcendent God entered His creation, was murdered by them to save them, and yet they still reject Him.

The cross of Christ was not a tragedy, it was an accomplishment.

So your answer would be YES?

My QUOTE: "God set the wheels in motion for a life that would bring just what He knew it would bring... a "knowing" life of grief and sorrow, war, crime, starvation, disease and eventually death for thousands of years..

His plan was to watch his Son suffer and die a horrible, excruciating death on the cross while he cried out in pain to his Father.
Why?.... so he could save us and lavish us with love ...."

[Mark F]

So your answer would be YES?

My QUOTE: "God set the wheels in motion for a life that would bring just what He knew it would bring... a "knowing" life of grief and sorrow, war, crime, starvation, disease and eventually death for thousands of years..

His plan was to watch his Son suffer and die a horrible, excruciating death on the cross while he cried out in pain to his Father.
Why?.... so he could save us and lavish us with love ...."

I cannot say with certainty, but most likely as men lived almost a thousand years in the beginning and I believe that the earth is around six thousand years old and that with God all things are possible. It is interesting that we age even now as all of our cells in our bodies are totally replaced every 6 or 7 years. So yes it is.

[jayne]

So your saying God didnt just suspect Adam and Eve would sin, He KNEW they would sin.. and this was "in a sense" His plan for us?

God set the wheels in motion for a life that would bring just what He knew it would bring... a "knowing" life of grief and sorrow, war, crime, starvation, disease and eventually death for thousands of years..

His plan was to watch his Son suffer and die a horrible, excruciating death on the cross while he cried out in pain to his Father.
Why?.... so he could save us and lavish us with love ....

This was His wonderful plan.? Sounds like Munchhausers by proxy to me.

To human beings, God’s knowing that Adam and Eve would sin is not a logical train of thought. But God is not a human. He knows and understands things that are so overwhelming divine that we – on this earth – could never comprehend.

And that’s not just my opinion. God made that claim when He said, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. “ Isaiah 55:8-9

Yes, God has a plan and will. We can’t possibly know the totality of it. Yes, we are a part of it. No, we are not the center nor main idea of it. God did not create the universe and put Adam and Eve here just so that He could "lavish someone/something with love". As I said, we aren't the center of His universe nor His plan.

As Mark has said, the death and suffering of Jesus Christ was not a tragedy. It was made up of tragic circumstances, of course, but His death was a great victory over sin, the sting of death, the grave, and our bondage to sin.

[Athanasius]

So your saying God didnt just suspect Adam and Eve would sin, He KNEW they would sin.. and this was "in a sense" His plan for us?

God set the wheels in motion for a life that would bring just what He knew it would bring... a "knowing" life of grief and sorrow, war, crime, starvation, disease and eventually death for thousands of years..

His plan was to watch his Son suffer and die a horrible, excruciating death on the cross while he cried out in pain to his Father.
Why?.... so he could save us and lavish us with love ....

This was His wonderful plan.? Sounds like Munchhausers by proxy to me.

You're forgetting the end of the story -- it's the best part. Because it turns out that the end, the end is really the beginning.

[allyc33]

I cannot say with certainty, but most likely as men lived almost a thousand years in the beginning and I believe that the earth is around six thousand years old and that with God all things are possible. It is interesting that we age even now as all of our cells in our bodies are totally replaced every 6 or 7 years. So yes it is.

With all due respect I find that sad.. and not giving God the credit He deserves.

1 John 4:8 says God is LOVE. He is not cruel and conniving. He asks us only that we love him with all our hearts.

God cries for us and has pain when we have pain...

Zechariah 2:8 "for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye"
Exodus 3:7 "I have heard them crying out..... and I am concerned about their suffering.
Numbers 20:16 "when we cried out to the LORD, he heard our cry and sent an angel"
Isaiah 63:9 "In all their distress he too was distressed"

This is not a God that would set us up to suffer, have sadness and pain just so we could glorify him in the end.
Absolutely makes no sense whatsoever.

[Mark F]

With all due respect I find that sad.. and not giving God the credit He deserves.

1 John 4:8 says God is LOVE. He is not cruel and conniving. He asks us only that we love him with all our hearts.

God cries for us and has pain when we have pain...

Zechariah 2:8 "for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye"
Exodus 3:7 "I have heard them crying out..... and I am concerned about their suffering.
Numbers 20:16 "when we cried out to the LORD, he heard our cry and sent an angel"
Isaiah 63:9 "In all their distress he too was distressed"

This is not a God that would set us up to suffer, have sadness and pain just so we could glorify him in the end.
Absolutely makes no sense whatsoever.

As for me God gets all the credit, where ever did you get that idea?

It is also interesting that you post those passages. Remember that it is Israel that those passages refer, to His chosen people.

Isaiah 63:9
In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them All the days of old.

As you read the Scriptures, the overwhelming theme that comes through, is that it all is to show us our need for Him, to walk day by day, step by step in complete dependence on Him. I trust His motives even though they are beyond my understanding.

[buster]

This is a question that boggles my mind as so many other things do.... but has anyone else ever wondered this?

God told them they would die that very same day if they disobeyed a seemingly simple commandment (kinda scary).. Did they not know what the words "positively die" meant?


So would Adam and Eve still be alive today if they hadnt sinned and how old would they be?


Allyson

From my point of view, not only would Adam and Eve still be alive, but chances are, our grandparents would still be alive, our great-grand parents would still be alive, and so would all generations of everyone's family. And not only that, but there would be no wars, no diseases, no violence, no broken hearts, no murders, no thefts, no adultery/cheating, no obesity, no pain, no suffering, no crying, no mourning, no forfeiture of the right to marry, no getting all wrinkled and bent over, anywhere on the entire Earth, and the Lake of Fire would also be very empty!

I also bet that, had Adam and Eve not eaten the forbidden fruit, there would be no Communist Manifesto (which currently controls the lives of roughly 99.995 percent of the world's population), Karl Marx would never have fallen from Christianity and become a deceitful satanist totally bent on destroying mankind with the communist manifesto, and therefore no property rents (the real term for "property taxes!), in fact, there would likely be no need for money at all.

There also would not be 600+ sins listed in the Bible, either, and the pathway to life would be like a 10 lane highway through a nice green meadow and not like a 2 by 4 plank over a pool of flaming hot volcanic lava, and it certainly would not be "easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle" than for a human to enter eternal life. And to tell you the truth, even a fly could never fit through the eye of a needle.

[BroRog]

This is a question that boggles my mind as so many other things do.... but has anyone else ever wondered this?

God told them they would die that very same day if they disobeyed a seemingly simple commandment (kinda scary).. Did they not know what the words "positively die" meant?


So would Adam and Eve still be alive today if they hadnt sinned and how old would they be?


Allyson

No. When God said they shall surely die, he wasn't talking about physical death; he was talking about the sentence of permanent destruction, i.e. punishment in the after life. Had Adam and Eve never sinned, their bodies would have continued to wear out and eventually run down until they died of natural causes. Remember, Paul, in Romans 8, says that God subjected this world to futility (entropy, decay, dissolution, etc.) to await the glorification of the saints. In other words, the sin of Adam and Eve didn't change the laws of physics.

[allyc33]

No. When God said they shall surely die, he wasn't talking about physical death; he was talking about the sentence of permanent destruction, i.e. punishment in the after life. Had Adam and Eve never sinned, their bodies would have continued to wear out and eventually run down until they died of natural causes.

Adam lived to be 930 years old in his sinful state. Wonder how long it would have taken for his body to wear out and die of natural causes if he had not sinned.

[Mark F]

No. When God said they shall surely die, he wasn't talking about physical death; he was talking about the sentence of permanent destruction, i.e. punishment in the after life. Had Adam and Eve never sinned, their bodies would have continued to wear out and eventually run down until they died of natural causes. Remember, Paul, in Romans 8, says that God subjected this world to futility (entropy, decay, dissolution, etc.) to await the glorification of the saints. In other words, the sin of Adam and Eve didn't change the laws of physics.

Hi BroRog,

I have understood that Romans 8:20 is speaking of Adam, I find it difficult to think that God would subject creation to futility and entropy in hope. In hope of what? That maybe He would figure out how to rescue them? I am not trying to be sarcastic either, I say that to explain some of why I tend to believe it to be Adam and not God, as we have stated earlier in this thread that God had redemption in His mind from before the foundations of the world.

Dosen't this passage seem to point in the direction that Adam understood that unless he joined Eve in the transgression, there would be no childbearing?

Timothy 2:14-15
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Food for thought anyway.

[claybevan]

This is a question that boggles my mind as so many other things do.... but has anyone else ever wondered this?

God told them they would die that very same day if they disobeyed a seemingly simple commandment (kinda scary).. Did they not know what the words "positively die" meant?


So would Adam and Eve still be alive today if they hadnt sinned and how old would they be?


Allyson

Yes, but it's a heck of a long time to resist temptation, what would Eve have been like when King David came on the scene! be pretty crowded down here too.