So we have no control of our lives?

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Does this suit you better?

Acts 15:18

I Corinthians 2:7

Isaiah 46:10

Acts 2:23-24

Jeremiah 1:5

Good scripture. Jeremiah 1:5 makes it most clear. These where the words God said to Jeremiah when he was still a boy.

Jeremiah 1
4 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”


All Praise The Ancient of Days

[Adstars]

As for peoples person style of posting, i try to take everything they say without projecting ill intent or an arrogant attitude upon the other. God knows the intentions of us all and be assured He is looking on as we discuss things.

One think i do know is that having a high IQ does not give you one bit of an advantage in understanding the deeper things of God over someone with a simple mind. In fact having a high IQ can lead to pride and that gets in the way of receiving a message from God. Some people are to focused on the beauty of their own thoughts to be open to the possibility that their thoughts may be faulty.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[episkopos]

Romans 9:10 18

"10 Not only that,but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet,before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad —in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told,“The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved,but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not,therefore,depend on human desire or effort,but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose,that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

Soooo God just randomly chooses who He wants to bless or help and has almost nothing to do with our prayer, desire, or the kind of person we are? My favorite part is how He (God) "hardens the hearts of those he wants to harden". Wheres the free will? How fair and just this God is!

So who is hardening you?

[BrianW]

I don't think anyone that was hardened would be on here discussing the scripture and God. If they were hardened they would hate scripture and God and want nothing to do with it I think.

God created us, He came down among us in the OT and the NT. He sent us prophets and showed His prophecy fulfilled. God the Father and Jesus told us of future events and by divine revelation caused the scripture to be written that also contains future prophecy. The hardened love the darkness and would want nothing to do with this place in the long term I think.

So please, lets not take this thread there.

Jeffinator,

If you, as others have, mistook what I wrote as questioning your intelligence I apologize. It was not my intent to do so.

[Diggindeeper]

Hello Jeffinator,

A discussion of Romans 9-11 would be very involved, but a quick answer is that Paul is addressing and comparing the election of Israel and the Church.

God's choice of Jacob over Esau was not the choosing of one person for heaven and one for hell; it was a choice between positions of service and birthright. One would have the choice position and the other would not - but this should not be taken as God having cast the one off. (Which is why Paul asks the rhetorical question concerning Israel in 11:1, "Has God cast away His chosen people? Certainly not!") The church is now God's chosen people, but what then of Israel?

And concerning Moses and Pharoah, do you not think that each person has the freewill to choose what kind of person they are? So in verse 9:18 where it says God will have mercy on whom He wills, and harden whom He wills, this should not be taken as meaning that God randomly makes some people nice and makes others mean. What is not discussed here (but is in Romans 11) is that God has mercy on the repentant, and He hardens the unrepentant; He does not make either type of person the way they are, that is their choice. So if Moses of his own will chose to be a God-fearing man, is it not God's perogative to have mercy upon him? And if Pharoah of his own will chose to be an arogant, ungodly man, is it not God's perogative to harden him? (And I have not gotten into what this hardening means, but I will in another post if you want me to.)

It is God's perogative to make choices, but this passage is not saying that God chooses to make men the way they are. It says that God has the right to choose between both men and nations (but these are not choices about how the persons will behave). God chose Jacob to be the son of choice, based upon nothing they had done - but this does not mean that God cast Esau away. And between Moses and Pharoah, this time God chose between them based upon their behavior. God has the right to choose in either case, but again, God is not making any certain person behave in any certain way; their behavior is their own choice.

It sounds like you have been exposed to a calvinist interpretation for this passage. Cheer up! The calvinists got it wrong.

yes, Calvinists definitely got it very wrong, as well as damaging. Surely there are others besides me who have taken notice of the arrogance displayed by those who adhere to Calvinism. They always believe God created one group of elite, chosen people who were predestined for heaven and one group who were destined with no hope whatsoever to the fires of hell. But one thing I've taken notice about....all who believe this also believe THEY are in that ELITE, CHOSEN group!

Any time I am confronted with this unbiblical doctrine, I remember when Sodom and Gomarrah were about to meet their destruction because of their life choices and their lifestyle. The Lord appeared to Abraham along with two angels. Here's what happened:

Genesis 18:16-19
16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.

17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

The Lord was saying, "I KNOW how Abraham will instruct his children and his descendents! I KNOW they will keep the laws of the Lord because I Know how Abraham will teach them!" Therefore, the Lord explained, he also knows that he can go ahead in advance and proclaim blessings upon Abraham and by him, bless the whole earth...because he knew in advance the kind of man Abraham would be!

To me, that is profound.

[teddyv]

yes, Calvinists definitely got it very wrong, as well as damaging. Surely there are others besides me who have taken notice of the arrogance displayed by those who adhere to Calvinism. They always believe God created one group of elite, chosen people who were predestined for heaven and one group who were destined with no hope whatsoever to the fires of hell. But one thing I've taken notice about....all who believe this also believe THEY are in that ELITE, CHOSEN group!

Anecdotally, having been raised in a tradition that is based on Calvinism, I have never heard such language actually stated in my years, either from the pulpit or from fellow congregants. I don't intend to dismiss the point that such people exist, but I don't know how prevalent it is in practice. We usually here about the chest-thumpers more often, simply because of the volume.

[Bandit]

yes, Calvinists definitely got it very wrong, as well as damaging. Surely there are others besides me who have taken notice of the arrogance displayed by those who adhere to Calvinism. They always believe God created one group of elite, chosen people who were predestined for heaven and one group who were destined with no hope whatsoever to the fires of hell. But one thing I've taken notice about....all who believe this also believe THEY are in that ELITE, CHOSEN group!

Anecdotally, having been raised in a tradition that is based on Calvinism, I have never heard such language actually stated in my years, either from the pulpit or from fellow congregants. I don't intend to dismiss the point that such people exist, but I don't know how prevalent it is in practice. We usually here about the chest-thumpers more often, simply because of the volume.

Hello teddyv,

I can only speak from my own experience, and no, not all calvinists speak this way, but I have met a large number who do. They deep down want to believe they are special individually - that God picked them individually. And I can understand the human desire to want to believe that you are special in God's eyes, but some carry this too far, to the point that they believe God picked them individually and they can't lose their predestined position no matter what.

But back to the passage in question (and how it relates to apologetics & evangelism). This passage does not teach that God controls people's behavior. It teaches that God has the right to chose between peoples and nations. The point in question is between the nation of Israel and the church. Now that God through Messiah has chosen the church to be His holy people, what happens to Israel, whom God previously chose? In other words, just like Jacob over Esau, the one who came 2nd (the church) has been chosen to have a better position than the one who came 1st (Israel). So does this mean that God no longer cares for the Jews? Has He cast them aside? Paul's answer is that God most certainly has not cast them aside.

[BrckBrln]

yes, Calvinists definitely got it very wrong, as well as damaging. Surely there are others besides me who have taken notice of the arrogance displayed by those who adhere to Calvinism. They always believe God created one group of elite, chosen people who were predestined for heaven and one group who were destined with no hope whatsoever to the fires of hell. But one thing I've taken notice about....all who believe this also believe THEY are in that ELITE, CHOSEN group!

Was it arrogant of Israel to claim they were the chosen people of God? And of course the people who believe in election also believe they are part of that elect, assuming they claim to be a Christian.

Regarding the OP, Paul gives his answer to the questions of 'what about free will?' and 'this is unfair'.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” Romans 9:14-15

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? Romans 9:19-21

[Athanasius]

As for peoples person style of posting, i try to take everything they say without projecting ill intent or an arrogant attitude upon the other. God knows the intentions of us all and be assured He is looking on as we discuss things.

One think i do know is that having a high IQ does not give you one bit of an advantage in understanding the deeper things of God over someone with a simple mind. In fact having a high IQ can lead to pride and that gets in the way of receiving a message from God. Some people are to focused on the beauty of their own thoughts to be open to the possibility that their thoughts may be faulty.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Is this a general comment, are or you using 'some people' to refer to my posts to BrianW?

[BrianW]

Mod Note:
This isn't happening here. Report any problem you think you see to the admins or start a thread in chat to mods and address it to an admin or take it to PM's. In this thread stick to the OP topic.

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Text removed from post.

[BrianW]

That mod note was for everyone Adstars. Any further posts not directly related to the OP will be deleted.

[Hawkins]

Romans 9:10 18

"10 Not only that,but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet,before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad —in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told,“The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved,but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not,therefore,depend on human desire or effort,but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose,that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

Soooo God just randomly chooses who He wants to bless or help and has almost nothing to do with our prayer, desire, or the kind of person we are? My favorite part is how He (God) "hardens the hearts of those he wants to harden". Wheres the free will? How fair and just this God is!

Because all cause and effect are a matter of "time". All human outcomes are bound to the axis of time. For each and every outcome related to humans, there's always a time stamp attached. God however is not bound by time. He thus can see through time as He wishes.

Whether we have control of our lives is a yes and no. First, humans are stupid enough to allow ourselves to be captive by Satan. Ever since we are captive, we no longer have control of our lives. We are doomed to be the dead, the prisoners waiting to be rescued. It is because we are the captive that God has all the freedom in choosing whoever He'd like to save to save. It by no means says that He doesn't have a criteria for how His Elect was chosen. “Jacob I loved,but Esau I hated.” it by no means says that He doesn't have a good reason to love Jacob and hate Esau. Though He won't directly tells you that "I hate Esau because he's the guy who will screw things up in heaven some 1000000000000000 years later, and that's why I decided long time ago that he's disallowed to set foot in heaven". He won't say so because it is out of our comprehension to listen. We don't have any sense to comprehend the future as He does.

But still you are not chosen perhaps because He saw/sees that you won't be able to survive the future in a time-frame of eternity in order to be part of His Kingdom in Heaven.

[BrianW]

Good post until the last sentence.
Please don't presume that someone isn't born again just because they have questions. I have many questions and it seems like every time I get an answer to one five more pop up in it's place. That doesn't make me or anyone else not a Christian. It makes us Christians who strive for a deeper understanding.

[Hawkins]

Good post until the last sentence.
Please don't presume that someone isn't born again just because they have questions. I have many questions and it seems like every time I get an answer to one five more pop up in it's place. That doesn't make me or anyone else not a Christian. It makes us Christians who strive for a deeper understanding.

Sorry that the last sentence was not directed to the OP, instead it was directed to any reader who finally as judged by God (not me) to be the 'not chosen'. It is a general message instead of one directed to the OP.

Anyway, if the sentence was not well phrased, my apology.