Seminary Knowledge and Atypical Beliefs

[watchinginawe]

It is not a either or situation
Emotion is not a method to determine truth. Truth is truth.
IF there is no love for the truth, then there is no love. There is only carnal motivation and arrogance.
So thru the truth of doctrine one can understand impersonal love for all man and use that as a attitude of love towards their fellow man based on what God is rather than the subject of what the man before you is.

Centurion, You first agree that it is not an either / or situation, but then disregard your agreement.

I believe you are right in that love might motivate one towards correct doctrine, but fear might do the same as well. Actually, I think perhaps the emotion of fear is very much involved in your promotion of "sola doctrine".

So to avoid evil... our state of mind needs to be on Doctrine, not emotions.

For emotions will be accepting and will open the door to evil.

As is shown by the state of the Christians in the USA.. they have opened the door to evil in the name of Love and emotion.
Now evil and carnal doctrine infests their churches and the nation is in a state of DIVINE judgement.
America has lost is base of blessings thru the Christians, they have become carnal in their way of thinking.
Focused on self.. their emotions, their self righteousness,their testimony, their speaking in tongues or other acts, their knowledge of right and wrong... rather than the Doctrine of Christ.

That last statement, there it is again. You say "rather", as one in exchange for the other. You suppose one cannot be motivated (informed) by any kind of emotion like compassion without disregarding doctrine. Surely there can be a match between the two which results in Paul's "more excellent way". Surely good doctrine informed within us by the Holy Ghost results in the following: Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. God does not abide in us by doctrine alone bringing forth this fruit. Doctrine is not the fourth person of the Godhead. Simple obedience (as opposed to informed obedience) does not produce such either, though I would suspect that some believe this.

[crawfish]

Hello all, it's been a long time since I last posted. Good to see lots of names I recognize still fighting the fight!

I don't have as much free time as I once had and don't know how much I'll be able to post, but I had some time this morning and decided to come visit you. Of course, the first thread I read prompted me to post.

First: to clear a misconception the church of Christ is NOT a cult. There are individual congregations, and an off-shoot (International Church of Christ) which are, but pegging the whole for a minority would be like judging all Baptists by the IBC. I have moved away from some of the core CofC beliefs and into a grace-centered CofC, but from personal experience I can tell you the whole thing is not cultish.

Second: on the main topic of this thread, which seems to have been moved away from, I did want to put in some of my thoughts. I've talked with kids coming out of seminary/bible college with vastly changed opinions, some falling away from the faith, and I have an idea of why. A typical church contains certain ideas of scripture; there are many "core issues" in the church today; Calvinism vs. Arminianism, OSAS vs. fall from grace, etc., and an individual church or denomination will usually have picked a side. It becomes an incubator of those ideas, boldly preaching them. If the other side is addressed it's usually in a negative sense. However, a college is and should be designed to be a place where one is exposed to many ideas AND the thought processes behind them. Instead of portraying "other" ideas negatively, they are explored from the point of view of the differing view. What used to be so clear when seen from one perspective is now muddled by knowledge of multiple perspectives. Students start to see those with other ideas not as enemies of the truth of scripture, but other honest, godly seekers who have read the same scriptures and come away with a different opinion. They see the pat answers they learned as children are not sufficient to satisfy the arguments. They see that the bigger world is more complicated than they had previously understood.

A (very conservative) college professor of a bible college once told me that studying the bible honestly will make you more liberal. Not liberal, just more liberal than you were when you started. I think this is true. The more deeply you delve into the bible the more you see that it does not always fit as neatly together as we Christians would like it to. There are many differences of opinion in the Christian world for good reason. Personally, I think this is intended by God because He doesn't want us to "resolve" every issue. He wants to keep us studying, learning and growing, and does not want to turn Christianity into a simple list of rules to follow. When we stop being humbled by the scriptures then we become unusable by God.

In my opinion, kids fall away or change when they go to seminary because the ideas they grew up with are being challenged. Too many older Christians want to be fed the same food they've had since childhood; Church should validate what they already believe, not challenge them to grow. The kids get excited about where God is leading them, then become disillusioned when their church resists or rejects them.

Should a seminary/bible college simply reinforce the beliefs of its particular faith group, or should it present a more complete view of religious thought and foster critical thinking skills for discernment? That is the key question.

[Colight]

Centurion, You first agree that it is not an either / or situation, but then disregard your agreement.

I believe you are right in that love might motivate one towards correct doctrine, but fear might do the same as well. Actually, I think perhaps the emotion of fear is very much involved in your promotion of "sola doctrine".

We are to take spiritual growth with all seriousness.
It is not some good time-roll-n-roll Game...
The advance we see on earth will affect us for all eternity, thus we need to complete the course that God has prepared for us.



Philippians 2:
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

If we fail or are distracted, then the scourge of God comes out to flog us as wayward sons.
So yeah one should have some fear on this matter, to be SURE we are correct in our doctrine.
This correctness is not determined by our wicked heart, called emotions.

Jeremiah 17
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Yet many Christians turn to their emotions and call that the spirit they use to then judge what is or is not truth.

That last statement, there it is again. You say "rather", as one in exchange for the other. You suppose one cannot be motivated (informed) by any kind of emotion like compassion without disregarding doctrine. Surely there can be a match between the two which results in Paul's "more excellent way". Surely good doctrine informed within us by the Holy Ghost results in the following:
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

God does not abide in us by doctrine alone bringing forth this fruit. Doctrine is not the fourth person of the Godhead. Simple obedience (as opposed to informed obedience) does not produce such either, though I would suspect that some believe this.

We are commanded to grow in our spiritual walk.. to finish the race before us...
We can not grow with out doctrine changing our way of thinking to the thinking of Christ..
Thru that change of thinking then we can produce fruit of the spirit.. rather than fruit of the flesh.

Doctrine coursing thru our mind is the means to that growth.
There is no other way, we must change our thinking to that which Christ has laid out for us.
Doctrine is the mind of Christ.


1 Corinthians 2
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Therefore doctrine is Christ, Christ is doctrine..

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So how can a believer say they believe Christ, then reject his doctrine for emotion..and expect any thing other than judgement and trouble.

[watchinginawe]

So how can a believer say they believe Christ, then reject his doctrine for emotion..and expect any thing other than judgement and trouble.

They cannot. The fruit of the Spirit manifest in our emotion cannot contradict sound doctrine but rather must reinforce and manifest each other. In fact, our emotions can discern false doctrine. Consider...

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. 14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. 15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. 16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

So if we are entreating doctrine that results in bitter envying and strife in our hearts, then we know it isn't from above. The thought isn't to disregard the bitter envying and strife as emotions and give full consideration to the false doctrine, but rather to be put on guard about how false doctrine robs us emotionally. James iss not suggesting that because there is ever bitter envying and strife in our hearts our heart cannot be trusted. However, that seems to be what you suggest.

[Colight]

They cannot. The fruit of the Spirit manifest in our emotion cannot contradict sound doctrine but rather must reinforce and manifest each other. In fact, our emotions can discern false doctrine. Consider...

How can our emotions know truth?

isa 55
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

It is not a fruitful position to think that our emotions are on the level with the thoughts of God.
This is why we are to use doctrine of Christ in our thinking, for our emotions are just not on Gods level of thinking.

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. 14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. 15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. 16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

So if we are entreating doctrine that results in bitter envying and strife in our hearts, then we know it isn't from above. The thought isn't to disregard the bitter envying and strife as emotions and give full consideration to the false doctrine, but rather to be put on guard about how false doctrine robs us emotionally. James iss not suggesting that because there is ever bitter envying and strife in our hearts our heart cannot be trusted. However, that seems to be what you suggest.

This is why we need doctrine as a mirror to look into.
For with out doctrine do we even have a real clue what is really righteous and not righteous?
Especially in the light of the smooth presentations of the evil one.....


2 Corinthians 11
14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

This is not some game, Doctrine is the rope we are to cling to so that we are not swept to and fro..

James all ready established doctrine first in the first chapter.

James 1
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;
24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.
25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

We are to use the Doctrine, not our emotions to judge our self and how we look in a spiritual sense.

[Youssarian]

Second: on the main topic of this thread, which seems to have been moved away from, I did want to put in some of my thoughts. I've talked with kids coming out of seminary/bible college with vastly changed opinions, some falling away from the faith, and I have an idea of why. A typical church contains certain ideas of scripture; there are many "core issues" in the church today; Calvinism vs. Arminianism, OSAS vs. fall from grace, etc., and an individual church or denomination will usually have picked a side. It becomes an incubator of those ideas, boldly preaching them. If the other side is addressed it's usually in a negative sense. However, a college is and should be designed to be a place where one is exposed to many ideas AND the thought processes behind them. Instead of portraying "other" ideas negatively, they are explored from the point of view of the differing view. What used to be so clear when seen from one perspective is now muddled by knowledge of multiple perspectives. Students start to see those with other ideas not as enemies of the truth of scripture, but other honest, godly seekers who have read the same scriptures and come away with a different opinion. They see the pat answers they learned as children are not sufficient to satisfy the arguments. They see that the bigger world is more complicated than they had previously understood.

A (very conservative) college professor of a bible college once told me that studying the bible honestly will make you more liberal. Not liberal, just more liberal than you were when you started. I think this is true. The more deeply you delve into the bible the more you see that it does not always fit as neatly together as we Christians would like it to. There are many differences of opinion in the Christian world for good reason. Personally, I think this is intended by God because He doesn't want us to "resolve" every issue. He wants to keep us studying, learning and growing, and does not want to turn Christianity into a simple list of rules to follow. When we stop being humbled by the scriptures then we become unusable by God.

In my opinion, kids fall away or change when they go to seminary because the ideas they grew up with are being challenged. Too many older Christians want to be fed the same food they've had since childhood; Church should validate what they already believe, not challenge them to grow. The kids get excited about where God is leading them, then become disillusioned when their church resists or rejects them.

Should a seminary/bible college simply reinforce the beliefs of its particular faith group, or should it present a more complete view of religious thought and foster critical thinking skills for discernment? That is the key question.

This does make sense. It's possible that they learn there are so many sides of the argument that they get confused and either drop out or, worse, abandon the faith altogether, seeing it as nothing more than an erratic mix of different opinion with nothing solid to glue the faith together. I know this feel to some degree. I was formerly a staunch Young Earth Creationist, however now I'm unsure but leaning toward Old Earth. (Note to all: that's not an invite to debate it in this thread.)

In what sense is a person made more liberal?

[watchinginawe]

This is why we need doctrine as a mirror to look into.

Where have I excluded doctrine at all? It is your insistance on "doctrine alone" which seems to be at issue. No one is suggesting that doctrine is not necessary.

I've enjoyed the discussion though and seeing the old Centurion around these parts! Be blessed.

[Colight]

Where have I excluded doctrine at all? It is your insistance on "doctrine alone" which seems to be at issue. No one is suggesting that doctrine is not necessary.

I've enjoyed the discussion though and seeing the old Centurion around these parts! Be blessed.

Some times my points are not directly at you..
But a hook to get others involved.

I am sure we will meet again in another discussion.

[crawfish]

This does make sense. It's possible that they learn there are so many sides of the argument that they get confused and either drop out or, worse, abandon the faith altogether, seeing it as nothing more than an erratic mix of different opinion with nothing solid to glue the faith together. I know this feel to some degree. I was formerly a staunch Young Earth Creationist, however now I'm unsure but leaning toward Old Earth. (Note to all: that's not an invite to debate it in this thread.)

In what sense is a person made more liberal?

In the sense that an extreme conservative is typically too rigid while an extreme liberal is typically too open. Revealing that the issues are more arguable than what we thought, as college does, will open someone up which pushes them farther to the liberal side. Note that one might be "more liberal" than before and still be far to the right of center.

[Boo]

This does make sense. It's possible that they learn there are so many sides of the argument that they get confused and either drop out or, worse, abandon the faith altogether, seeing it as nothing more than an erratic mix of different opinion with nothing solid to glue the faith together. I know this feel to some degree. I was formerly a staunch Young Earth Creationist, however now I'm unsure but leaning toward Old Earth. (Note to all: that's not an invite to debate it in this thread.)

In what sense is a person made more liberal?

I really appreciate the posts done by crawfish and you. It strikes right at the heart of my current journey.

This problem of discovering what the bible REALLY says versus the doctrine conjured up by a denomination creates problems. When people really read their bibles and give thought to the contents, it is possible to run afoul of the doctrines taught by a denomination. If they keep their discovery to themselves, they may well become disenchanted with their own church and go off seeking one that follows the truth that they have come to know. If they speak up about it, then they may become subject to criticism from their church family and be driven from their church.

I can see that happening at a seminary where those who have learned to accept doctrine as true and unquestionable become troubled when they find that those doctrines really are questionable and possibly not supportable in scriptures. If then, instead of resolving the issue within their own minds and understanding THE truth, they drop out and leave the ministry; they quite possibly were not good candidates for ministry to begin with.

The churches need honest fully-convicted teachers; not parrots.

[Watchman]

The churches need honest fully-convicted teachers; not parrots.

Amen. From where do these teachers come? Didn't Christ gift the church with teachers when He ascended? And given that He did, per Ephesians 4, would He have equipped them as well? Could it be that we have many in teaching positions who have not been called by God to teach, rather, they've called themselves to teach? Who teaches the teachers God gives to the church?

W

[Boo]

Amen. From where do these teachers come? Didn't Christ gift the church with teachers when He ascended? And given that He did, per Ephesians 4, would He have equipped them as well? Could it be that we have many in teaching positions who have not been called by God to teach, rather, they've called themselves to teach? Who teaches the teachers God gives to the church?

W

God does. The Holy Spirit aids the ones that It/He gifts for the purpose of teaching and preaching. The actual mechanics of learning varies, but the obedient ones chosen by God will learn with the help of The Comforter.

[Watchman]

God does. The Holy Spirit aids the ones that It/He gifts for the purpose of teaching and preaching. The actual mechanics of learning varies, but the obedient ones chosen by God will learn with the help of The Comforter.

Amen. The mechanics of learning do vary, because no two individuals are created exactly alike. He teaches us in the way(s) He knows is/are best for us.

W