Establishing the Law (Rom. 3)

[-SEEKING-]

How can you be free of something that enslaves you?

This begs the obvious question then. And I'll start with a simple question.

Are you saying that since Christ came into your life, you've not once sinned? Please be honest.

[episkopos]

The reason that Jesus came to us in the first place was because sin and death had separated us from God. So Jesus Christ came to pay the penalty for our past rebellion in Adam and lead us to a reconciliation with God...as in the garden of Eden. We have the spiritual part of that reconciliation right now in the giving of the Holy Spirit...the physical will follow in the next age.

But just what does the Holy Spirit do in our lives? Well the answer lies in the letting go of our old power...the flesh...that kept us going when we were far from God. But now we don't need that power....we rather allow God to destroy the hold that power had on us through the giving of a new power that causes us to become a new creation that is already created in holiness without any sin in it. It cannot have sin in it because it is already in the presence of God. The new creation is a restoration of the relationship that God had with men BEFORE the fall. Was there sin before the fall??? Of course not! So there are a few who live on earth today that believe in the power of a new life in Christ. We are to seek the Lord and encourage each other to continue in this in order to be found IN Christ having this relationship with God restored. A sinner has not yet been restored or else has fallen away from this restoration. One needs to repent and surrender their old power which is steeped in sin....come to the cross...and then be restored again to fellowship with God according to His amazing power in the light.

[episkopos]

This begs the obvious question then. And I'll start with a simple question.

Are you saying that since Christ came into your life, you've not once sinned? Please be honest.

That's not what the issue is at all. I once believed as most do...that a man is doomed to sin as long as he lives and that the grace of God is insufficient for me.

We (especially in this time of apostasy from the truth) will find it hard indeed to believe in something we have never experienced nor seen. But this is where faith comes in. We walk by faith not by sight or previous experience.

I have sinned greatly before the Lord AFTER receiving the Holy Spirit. I was completely foolish and ignorant about the grace I had received....I had literally ZERO wisdom.

But as I became tired of the sinning I cried out to God and He allowed me to walk in His light for various lengths of time...without sin...in a constant intimacy with Him. From there it is impossible to sin. But I was attacked so hard by the devil and practically all the "believers" I tried fellowshipping with that I would eventually slacken in my attachment to the Spirit...after all how could I be right and so many be wrong??? But I have grown since then...

The word also backs up this experience of an overcoming power in the light of God. In fact...it is only about this!!!!! So I have 2 testimonies to draw from that God has given us the means to walk as Jesus did...by faith. Both the word of God...and the experience in the truth I have been granted. But no one needs to believe my testimony..(usually it is easier for an unbeliever ..who has not been immunized from the truth... to receive what I have to say) but the bible is clear on the purpose of Christ and His coming to save us FROM OUR SINS, not IN OUR SINS.

So I no longer listen to men and their persuasion that goes against the reality of a supernatural walk in Christ. I rather extend this out for others to consider.

Now the truth is both hard to receive and to experience. We need to seek as if for our last breath...it is very deep...too deep it would seem for our generations. We are far too superficial about our walks in the Lord.

But I have learned to walk in this faith.

[episkopos]

The purpose of the church is to edify...build up...the faith of those who seek to come out of the world to follow Jesus Christ. Too often the majority will try discouraging any from going any farther than they themselves have...so this becomes an unhealthy environment for faith.


We are to encourage others to take up their crosses daily in order to be ready to listen to the leading of the Spirit. But we must also be filled with the Spirit. The church is a place where the brethren are filled with love joy and peace...and the power of holiness. We don't discourage others from what we have not yet experienced ourselves, but share the things that can help the brethren to become overcomers themselves.

Christianity is not a religion of defeat but rather a living way of victory over sin and the world.

[-SEEKING-]

but the bible is clear on the purpose of Christ and His coming to save us FROM OUR SINS, not IN OUR SINS.

Well, if we have the power to not sin, then why exactly is He coming to save us FROM OUR SINS? Should they not be irrelevant then?

[BroRog]

The written word agrees with the experience of a heavenly power that overcomes sin. Did Paul go around preaching in word or power? There are any number of sophistic tricks that rob the meaning of words or diminish their obvious meaning. It is the implications of the words of the bible that leads one to have faith in God whereas that would NOT be a reasonable response for someone with a worldly agenda. God has protected the truth against all those who would not receive it with the faith of a child.

Eph_3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Note that passive voice here. Paul's benediction acknowledges God's initiative to work in us, which is a completely different picture than the one we see painted by those who claim that God has given us the means to overcome sin if we would only appropriate the power.

Eph_1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Again, Paul is praying to God that God might act among the Ephesians; This stands in stark contrast to the exhortation of those who teach that as Christians we have the means to keep ourselves from sin through a power God has supplied to us. And if we read this verse in context we will notice that Paul has a specific act of "power" in mind, i.e. raising Jesus from the dead.

Col_1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

Again, this statement is found in a prayer that Paul is making toward God, not an exhortation given to the church. Whatever it means for God to strengthen with all power unto patience etc. this is something God is doing with his power, not something the believer does with the help of God's power.

The power of God is greater than the sin of men. He that is in you is greater than he that is in the world. How can the fall of men be greater than the power of God???

So God through His grace towards us empowers us to walk as a witness to the truth of the gospel. Christianity is not just a clever religion of men...but a power from heaven to walk as Jesus walked. All praise to God.

I suppose it depends on what you think the Gospel teaches. Apparently you think the Gospel teaches us one thing, and I think the Gospel teaches us something else. Apparently you believe that the truth of the Gospel is that God has empowered us to walk without sin.

Why the cross then?

[Noeb]

I agree episkopos has this habit,

I tend to write many short posts as opposed to long ones with myriads of verses for brevity and clarity's sake.

Well when you pull out "I die daily" by itself and use it to say we die to a soul self daily when Paul was talking about physical death and persecution, you have "BroRog -This single-verse approach is typical of those who couch a false doctrine in a way that appears to be Biblical." But I digress

[Vanderhoven7]

Greetings to all. I thought it timely to rehash this crucial issue of understanding Paul's approach to the law and grace. I think a great many errors stem from a faulty understanding of the meaning of Paul. What is he really saying in Romans 3? On the one hand it sounds as if Christians are no longer held accountable to uphold the law because of grace by faith. This is the conclusion that many if not most Christians come away with. And yet Paul concludes with the very opposite assertion....

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

How is the law established by a non-compliance with it? Rather Paul should have said...yea we abolish the law.

So what are we missing to see that Paul means the very opposite of what most people claim he is saying?

I call Romans 3 "The Establishment of the law" chapter.

Interesting. Many questions randomly come to mind. I'll just list a few.

Do you comply with all of the laws given to Moses that are applicable to males (assuming you are a man)?

How far are you allowed to walk on the Sabbath? Does your Sabbath begin on Friday at Sundown?

Do you believe in stoning disrespectful children, adulterers, witches, practicing homosexuals etc?

Do you follow the dietary laws? The laws regarding tithing?

How do you understand Acts 15 as it applies to Gentile Christians?

Vander

[episkopos]

Well, if we have the power to not sin, then why exactly is He coming to save us FROM OUR SINS? Should they not be irrelevant then?

He came to empower us with a new life that doesn't sin. The world is not he same since Jesus came...the last Adam has overcome the first Adam. Grace is available to walk in Christ...this is the gospel.

[episkopos]

Note that passive voice here. Paul's benediction acknowledges God's initiative to work in us, which is a completely different picture than the one we see painted by those who claim that God has given us the means to overcome sin if we would only appropriate the power.

Again, Paul is praying to God that God might act among the Ephesians; This stands in stark contrast to the exhortation of those who teach that as Christians we have the means to keep ourselves from sin through a power God has supplied to us. And if we read this verse in context we will notice that Paul has a specific act of "power" in mind, i.e. raising Jesus from the dead.

Again, this statement is found in a prayer that Paul is making toward God, not an exhortation given to the church. Whatever it means for God to strengthen with all power unto patience etc. this is something God is doing with his power, not something the believer does with the help of God's power.


I suppose it depends on what you think the Gospel teaches. Apparently you think the Gospel teaches us one thing, and I think the Gospel teaches us something else. Apparently you believe that the truth of the Gospel is that God has empowered us to walk without sin.

Why the cross then?

To pay for the sin we were in bondage to...and not just the penalty for sins but also a resurrection from the dead to empower men to walk in newness of life. We follow Christ by being first crucified with Him...thus killing the power of sin...and then raised with Him to a new life created IN Christ. The initial experience of this we call being born from above.

[episkopos]

Interesting. Many questions randomly come to mind. I'll just list a few.

Do you comply with all of the laws given to Moses that are applicable to males (assuming you are a man)?

How far are you allowed to walk on the Sabbath? Does your Sabbath begin on Friday at Sundown?

Do you believe in stoning disrespectful children, adulterers, witches, practicing homosexuals etc?

Do you follow the dietary laws? The laws regarding tithing?

How do you understand Acts 15 as it applies to Gentile Christians?

Vander

The law was clarified by Jesus in Matthew 5. The law is spiritual. The law of Moses was for national Israel...the ceremonial laws that have been replaced by true holiness. The outer laws having been replaced by the deeper inner laws that require a new nature to perform.

An example is the sabbath. Sabbath means to cease from our works. In Christ we cease permanently from our own works in order to walk in the Spirit and do the works prepared in heaven.

The sabbath rest was meant as a relational time with God...not speaking our own words or doing what pleases us...but rather giving our time to God. Again a surrendered life to the Spirit accomplishes this at it's proper spiritual depth.

The sabbath was never meant as a coffee break on a certain day. That is why we have unions.

[Vanderhoven7]

The law was clarified by Jesus in Matthew 5. The law is spiritual. The law of Moses was for national Israel...the ceremonial laws that have been replaced by true holiness. The outer laws having been replaced by the deeper inner laws that require a new nature to perform.

An example is the sabbath. Sabbath means to cease from our works. In Christ we cease permanently from our own works in order to walk in the Spirit and do the works prepared in heaven.

The sabbath rest was meant as a relational time with God...not speaking our own words or doing what pleases us...but rather giving our time to God. Again a surrendered life to the Spirit accomplishes this at it's proper spiritual depth....

Hearty Amen Bro. Thank you for clarifying.

[Watchman]

The law was clarified by Jesus in Matthew 5. The law is spiritual. The law of Moses was for national Israel...the ceremonial laws that have been replaced by true holiness. The outer laws having been replaced by the deeper inner laws that require a new nature to perform.

An example is the sabbath. Sabbath means to cease from our works. In Christ we cease permanently from our own works in order to walk in the Spirit and do the works prepared in heaven.

The sabbath rest was meant as a relational time with God...not speaking our own words or doing what pleases us...but rather giving our time to God. Again a surrendered life to the Spirit accomplishes this at it's proper spiritual depth.

The sabbath was never meant as a coffee break on a certain day. That is why we have unions.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

I'll add my 'amen', too!

W

[episkopos]

Hearty Amen Bro. Thank you for clarifying.

God bless you!!! I see you are also in Montrreal!!!

[awestruckchild]

Ezekiel 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

I'll add my 'amen', too!

W

OH!
How perfect and timely, W!
Thank you all for this thread!