Establishing the Law (Rom. 3)

[BroRog]

If you say it is easy to obey His commandments, it IS saying that it is easy not to sin.
Considering what Jesus said murder IS in God's eyes, then, no, it is NOT easy to obey the commandments...
From human estimation, it is relatively easy to obey the commandment to not murder. Well over 95% of us never WILL physically murder another human in our lifetime.
But from God's estimation, we have ALL murdered.
It is what comes from your heart that defiles you.
As a man thinks in his heart, so he is.

I agree that the Holy Spirit makes us aware of just how awful we are. But once He does, we can't just change it and decide we will fix it. It is inside of us, where we can't perform the operation. We cannot just choose to circumcise our own hearts.
If men think God's commandments are easy to keep, they have not understood that the words are spirit because God is Spirit.

And obedience IS in terms of the inner life. If the inside of your cup is clean, the outside will be as well, but the reverse is not always true. The outside of your cup can look good to everyone but inside, it is full of awful things and dead mens bones.
If it is what comes OUT of a man that defiles him, then yes, obedience is in terms of the inner life. The flesh avails nothing.
You do not work on the outside and then the inside just naturally follows.
But if the inside of the cup is clean, then the outside just will be as well.

As I say, if you want to define obedience in those terms then not only is it hard, it's impossible to obey. But I don't know anyone who claims to obey in the sense you mean. Do you know of anyone who claims to obey God from the inner man? The apostle Paul himself admitted that he didn't.

[awestruckchild]

As I say, if you want to define obedience in those terms then not only is it hard, it's impossible to obey. But I don't know anyone who claims to obey in the sense you mean. Do you know of anyone who claims to obey God from the inner man? The apostle Paul himself admitted that he didn't.

So we are to obey literally, but not in our inner man?
We are not to take it to heart when Jesus explains how holy God is in respect to murder, adultery, etc.?
Or, are we to take it to heart and then say: ah, well, this is impossible for man, so what can one do? We are evil and cannot be clean on the inside so we must just do our best?
Surely God does not expect us to be holy because He is holy, right?

[awestruckchild]

As I say, if you want to define obedience in those terms then not only is it hard, it's impossible to obey.

GM BroRog,
You are correct when you say it is impossible to obey. With men, this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible.
To say it is impossible to obey is the law having it's intended effect.
So then what?

[John 8:32]

GM BroRog,
You are correct when you say it is impossible to obey. With men, this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible.
To say it is impossible to obey is the law having it's intended effect.
So then what?

Then we are under the New Covenant...

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

God will give us a heart to obey Him and His commandments.

[episkopos]

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


God's laws are unchanging. The law of sin and death can be boiled down to this...

Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

So did God change the law for some favourites of His? Of course not!!!! God has no favourites. God did not spare the natural branches and will certainly not spare us either. If God were going to eliminate the law for one then He would do it for all. God is the God of ALL flesh.

But we have THIS treasure in earthen vessels. In other words God has given us a new grace that already overcomes sin...through a new law that is received by believing God. So then this new law supercedes or sets us free from what previously we were enslaved to.


It is like the law of gravity being overcome by the law of vacuum created over the wing of a plane. Does the plane destroy the law of gravity? Or does the plane take advantage of a law that overcomes gravity!!?? That is how we overcome sin and the law...through the law of the Spirit that gives us a new type of life that is already IN God.

[episkopos]

I think there is a confusion of what we consider the eternal and what is immortal.

God has decided to put what is eternal into what is still mortal. This is the treasure we have in earthen vessels. So we can have eternal life while we are yet walking in the flesh (but not according to the weakness of the flesh).

God loves to hide the truth. It takes seeking and faith to find it out. Imagine 10 men walking down the street...9 have only 1 dollar in their pocket but 1 of them has a million dollars. Can you tell by the way the walk physically? So it is with someone who is walking in the light....he walks like any other man...but he is actually IN Christ and living without the slightest spot or wrinkle of sin.

[John 8:32]

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


God's laws are unchanging. The law of sin and death can be boiled down to this...

Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

So did God change the law for some favourites? Of course not!!!! God has no favourites. If God were going to eliminate the law for one then He would do it for all. God is the God of ALL flesh.

But we have THIS treasure in earthen vessels. In other words God has given us a new grace that already overcomes sin...through a new law that is received by believing God. So then this new law supercedes or sets us free from what previously we were enslaved to.


It is like the law of gravity being overcome by the law of vacuum created over the wing of a plane. Does the plane destroy the law of gravity? Or does the plane take advantage of a law that overcomes gravity!!?? That is how we overcome sin and the law...through the law of the Spirit that gives us a new type of life that is already IN God.

A very good example of this is Moses...

Exo 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Num 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
Num 12:7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
Num 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

God deeply loved Moses, but, He would not compromise even for Moses...

Deu 34:1 And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD shewed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan,
Deu 34:2 And all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea,
Deu 34:3 And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar.
Deu 34:4 And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.
Deu 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Deu 34:6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

God showed Moses the land, but because of his sin, he was not allowed to enter the land even though God loved Moses so much He personally buried him.

God does not compromise with His law.

[BroRog]

GM BroRog,
You are correct when you say it is impossible to obey. With men, this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible.
To say it is impossible to obey is the law having it's intended effect.
So then what?

We suffer and wait like a child on Christmas Eve.

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him]. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for [our] adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he [already] sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

[episkopos]

We suffer and wait like a child on Christmas Eve.

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him]. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for [our] adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he [already] sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

But this is to confuse putting on immortality in the future with the present requirement of overcoming sin while still in the body. It is the common jumbling of a new life in Christ that is an eternal life with a body that doesn't perish with age (immortality).

The long range faith is not faith but hope....and hope WAITS...

But we are to live according to faith. A faith that defies what we are seeing.

So it is wrong to walk by sight and do only what is possible for fallen men to do AND expect a happy outcome that we hope to attain. We do reap what we have sown. If we live according to the weakness of our flesh then we will reap corruption. But if we walk in the power of the Spirit then we can hope to inherit immortality (in the eternal life we have been given already).

We will not inherit immortality through a dormant eternal life seed that is hidden and not walked in...we will be judged by our thoughts and deeds. But rather, we inherit immortality through WALKING in the eternal life that overcomes the laws that bind sinners to their destiny of death.

[BroRog]

But this is to confuse putting on immortality in the future with the present requirement of overcoming sin while still in the body. It is the common jumbling of a new life in Christ that is an eternal life with a body that doesn't perish with age (immortality).

I don't think so. But if you disagree, then exegete the passage I quoted and make sense of the passage according to your interpretation. But I don't think you can do that since Paul clearly says that our glorification is a future hope, not a present reality.

[episkopos]

I don't think so. But if you disagree, then exegete the passage I quoted and make sense of the passage according to your interpretation. But I don't think you can do that since Paul clearly says that our glorification is a future hope, not a present reality.

We agree on that. But we are called to have eternal life while we yet walk in the mortal flesh. That is what is meant by walking in the Spirit. When we do this then we don't do the works of the flesh. Rather they are put to death. That is the consistent message of Paul (among other).