Christian Holidays

[claybevan]

I have been listening to a pastor called Jim Staley, info link below


He is, I suppose a sort of messianic Jew but he's not a Jew but he and his family now follow and celebrate the Jewish calender / holidays.
He was speaking to a Jewish client /friend who told him the biggest reason Jews felt unable to take christians seriously was because ( apart from not believing Jesus was the one ) that they followed who they believed to be the Jewish Messiah but then went and changed all the feast days etc.
Is there any biblical back up for the church changing these things and then putting most of our festival dates on top of pagan holidays?
What thoughts on this.
I haven't explained myself very well hope you all understand what I'm on about.

[Bandit]

Hello claybevan,

The link would not come up for me, but there is some truth to the question you raise. It does seem that the early Roman church adopted/modified/merged a number of pagan holidays with Christian observances. But you know, Romans 14 kind of applies. What is in a day? A day, any day, is what we make of it. It is neither good nor bad on its own right. So someone wants to go to church on Sunday, big deal. Or Saturday, again, big deal. Or they want to observe Easter on a certain day every year... big deal. Or Christmas on December 25th... big deal. These things are really neither here nor there. Don't get caught up with the observances, but also don't get caught up with avoiding them or thinking they are wrong. A day is just a day. If you observe it to the Lord, then observe it to the Lord.

[claybevan]

Hello claybevan,

The link would not come up for me, but there is some truth to the question you raise. It does seem that the early Roman church adopted/modified/merged a number of pagan holidays with Christian observances. But you know, Romans 14 kind of applies. What is in a day? A day, any day, is what we make of it. It is neither good nor bad on its own right. So someone wants to go to church on Sunday, big deal. Or Saturday, again, big deal. Or they want to observe Easter on a certain day every year... big deal. Or Christmas on December 25th... big deal. These things are really neither here nor there. Don't get caught up with the observances, but also don't get caught up with avoiding them or thinking they are wrong. A day is just a day. If you observe it to the Lord, then observe it to the Lord.

Sorry Bandit, I'm useless with computers can't even work out how to leave a link! it was just to give everyone an idea about his ministry not particularly on that subject.
I don't actually follow his teaching but just stumbled across the site and found it interesting.
I'm not worried or caught up in anything just interested to hear what others thought.
When did the early church move away from the Jewish feast days? Why did they feel the need to? after all Jesus hadn't come to change but to fulfill
Please, anyone who reads this, I'm not being controversial and I haven't changed my Sunday worship,just like to understand what other people find important.
He also goes on about us having oblisks everywhere, linking it with nimrod. Again not worried, in my mind I would think that if we don't see oblisks as a thing to worship then there is no problem.
I'm waffling as usual.
Time for bed,
Good night and God bless.

[allyc33]

Pagan practices, worship, festival celebrations ....all in honor of their gods, goddesses, seasons, etc....were successfully merged with the worship of one God and Father..

Why is this.. and why do we accept it?

Jeremiah 10:2 "Learn not the way of the heathens"

(hea·then: 1. Offensive; and 2. An adherent of a Neopagan religion that seeks to revive the religious beliefs and practices of the ancient Germanic peoples.)

Verse 3 says the customs of the peoples are worthless;
It then goes on to describe something that sounds very much like a Christmas Tree... Eventually speaking of Gods anger and wrath.
Verse 8 says "They are all senseless and foolish;"


How much clearer could this be.?
But we still choose to do what clearly angers God?

Can we really pick and choose what we think is right or wrong.. and then twist our thinking to justify our choices... making ourselves feel better.. ?

[keck553]

Apparently God has been okay with Christian traditions for over 1200 years. Even the extra Biblical feast of Hannukkah I assume.

Who knows, perhaps even the month named Nisan (a Babylonian replacement of Aviv).

I wonder if that is because God is more concerned about what is in our hearts than what is in our legal briefs? Just thinking...

[claybevan]

Apparently God has been okay with Christian traditions for over 1200 years. Even the extra Biblical feast of Hannukkah I assume.

Who knows, perhaps even the month named Nisan (a Babylonian replacement of Aviv).

I wonder if that is because God is more concerned about what is in our hearts than what is in our legal briefs? Just thinking...

You're right of course but it still interests me as to why and when the change came about. It seems the christian church wanted to separate itself totally from any Jewish link, which in a way is quite strange as it's the root of what we believe. I feel a google coming on.

[allyc33]

How do you know or why do you say "apparently God has been okay with Christian traditions for over 1200 years"...

Claybevan asked Is there any biblical back up for the church changing these things and then putting most of our festival dates on top of pagan holidays?
That is an interesting question.... I would think not, but I may be wrong. Does anyone know?

When the Bible speaks of His wrath and warns us not to learn their ways.. It doesnt sound like God is okay with it.... so maybe we are just hoping or just really want HIM to be okay with it so we can keep observing Christian traditions (or holidays) that originated with pagan practices.?

[keck553]

You're right of course but it still interests me as to why and when the change came about. It seems the christian church wanted to separate itself totally from any Jewish link, which in a way is quite strange as it's the root of what we believe. I feel a google coming on.

Both Christianity and Judaism made extraordinary efforts to separate from each other. It wasn't a one-sided affair. It was mutual, and has continued throughout the centuries. I do not think it will remain that way though.

I agree that looking back, it seems strange. But I see the roots of the separation begining in ACTS beginning with the conversion of God-fearers. Judaism of that day wanted to keep the ritual conversion of the Great Assembly in place (hence the term "Judiazers", while the Messianic sect was offering conversion by a minimal set of requirements dating back to Noah. Boom. Instant separation.

But interestingly (is that a word?), right after the ACTS 15 requirements were agreed upon, it goes on to say the converts "Hear Moses (Torah) every week. So maybe they expected a little bit of growth to ensue?

[keck553]

How do you know or why do you say "apparently God has been okay with Christian traditions for over 1200 years"...

Claybevan asked Is there any biblical back up for the church changing these things and then putting most of our festival dates on top of pagan holidays?
That is an interesting question.... I would think not, but I may be wrong. Does anyone know?

When the Bible speaks of His wrath and warns us not to learn their ways.. It doesnt sound like God is okay with it.... so maybe we are just hoping or just really want HIM to be okay with it so we can keep observing Christian traditions (or holidays) that originated with pagan practices.?

Perhaps your point should be taken seriously. Tell me, do you think God was pleased with 1st Century Judaism as it was practiced? If not, why would bet Yeshua follow those ways?

I don't know. God is silent on Christian traditions as He is on Hannukkah and dridels, dressing up as Haman, etc. (I love Hannukkah by the way). Where God is silent, perhaps we should not blow the shofar. Heck, making beer can be traced back to pagan roots, does that mean drinking beer is not kashrut?

I'm just thinking outloud - not arguing. This subject has always interested me.

My obeservation is merely based on the fact that the Church and Christians have been greatly blessed. I suppose that could be a random event?

I have to say though, I stop cold at easter eggs and bunnies. It is my own conviction that type of celebration is disrespectful to my Master.

[claybevan]

Perhaps your point should be taken seriously. Tell me, do you think God was pleased with 1st Century Judaism as it was practiced? Do you think He would have allowed an obedient and Law-keeping Israel and the Temple to come to such destruction?

I don't know. God is silent on Christian traditions as He is on Hannukkah.

My obeservation is merely based on the fact that the Church and Christians have been greatly blessed. I suppose that could be a random event?

I don't really want to get into discussing judgement of the Jews and I'm not sure we've been blessed because of our holiday dates but
I guess I am answering my own question. Christianity although rooted in Judaism is not a continuation of it and therefore we are not required to follow the same feast days, although the Messianic Jews obviously do.
The changes obviously happened over a period of time, not sure why we dumped some of them on top of pagan dates, perhaps the powers that be thought they might have a pagan revolt on their hands if they did away with the dates completely so supplanted them with christian celebrations.
There's a lot of churches over here that now have an alternative to halloween.
Must dash, there's a queue for the computer, me thinks I've bred a load of night owls.

[BroRog]

You're right of course but it still interests me as to why and when the change came about. It seems the christian church wanted to separate itself totally from any Jewish link, which in a way is quite strange as it's the root of what we believe. I feel a google coming on.

The change came about during the time of Constantine, who attempted to reunite his kingdom and reconstitute the Roman Empire. His personal goal was unity and so he attempted to bring his empire under a one-world government and a one-world religion. In order to create a one-world religion, he adopted Christianity as the official religion but in order to bring everyone under the same religion, he commanded that Christians and pagans celebrate their respective holidays on the same day. If you Google, try starting with Constantine.

[claybevan]

The change came about during the time of Constantine, who attempted to reunite his kingdom and reconstitute the Roman Empire. His personal goal was unity and so he attempted to bring his empire under a one-world government and a one-world religion. In order to create a one-world religion, he adopted Christianity as the official religion but in order to bring everyone under the same religion, he commanded that Christians and pagans celebrate their respective holidays on the same day. If you Google, try starting with Constantine.

Don't know what I did before the internet? I certainly didn't spend as much time down at the library.
You're right there was a major move with Constantine but it must of been gradually happening before then, someone said that some of the Jewish Christians separated themselves at the time of the Jewish revolt too. I can imagine that on the Jewish side they were more than happy about the separation but it must of been hard for the newly converted Jews to leave all their traditions behind even though they were overjoyed at their salvation.
And just as hard now for the Messianic Jews of today, they do still follow some of their feast dates, passover obviously replaced with the ultimate scarifice, but Rosh hashanah is still their new year etc. but their treatment by the ultra orthodox Jews is appalling.
Heartbreaking when you think of their heritage, we have been grafted in but they had it all.
I know that the Angels rejoice when one soul comes to The Lord, but i can't help thinking there might be an extra trump when a Jew receives the Good News.

Brings me on to another thought about how we feel about dates like Halloween.
I stopped having a Christmas tree a couple of years ago, I was dragging our tree out after Christmas, needles dropping everywhere and I thought what an earth am I doing bringing a tree indoors to start with, it has nothing to do with My Lords birth. Seemed like another ploy to appease the pagans, " yes, you can have your tree, but just make sure you put a star on top" and it's stuck.
And then there's the whole commercial aspect that seems to have gone completely overboard. We have cut down drastically on presents because one year we were dreading Christmas because we just couldn't afford it, my husband and I looked at each other and felt ashamed that we had been so dragged in by the worlds view of Christmas, we were set free yet again!
And as keck said before, Easter Eggs etc. all in celebration of the fertility godess.

Do these things offend Our Lord ? there's no doubt that he sees any celebration or worship of other gods as an abomination, can we pass it off as " oh it only means we are celebrating our new birth in Christ".
Oh dear I have gone off track again! but sort of on the same lines. Just thinking

[episkopos]

I have been listening to a pastor called Jim Staley, info link below


He is, I suppose a sort of messianic Jew but he's not a Jew but he and his family now follow and celebrate the Jewish calender / holidays.http://couponbuddy.s3.amazonaws.com/...corner.002.png
He was speaking to a Jewish client /friend who told him the biggest reason Jews felt unable to take christians seriously was because ( apart from not believing Jesus was the one ) that they followed who they believed to be the Jewish Messiah but then went and changed all the feast days etc.
Is there any biblical back up for the church changing these things and then putting most of our festival dates on top of pagan holidays?
What thoughts on this.
I haven't explained myself very well hope you all understand what I'm on about.

I believe it was a very human animosity that caused the Catholic church to sever all ties with Judaism and vice versa. But time heals these wounds.

I personally think it very healthy to look into and even celebrate the Jewish feasts...as long as we don't get legalistic about it. The feasts are just one more aspect that add to the richness of the heritage we embark on when we go with the way of faith in God.

[allyc33]

Hebrews 8

6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
8 But God found fault with the people and said “The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”c
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

[John 8:32]

I have been listening to a pastor called Jim Staley, info link below


He is, I suppose a sort of messianic Jew but he's not a Jew but he and his family now follow and celebrate the Jewish calender / holidays.

"Jewish calendar/holidays" is a misnomer, these are not Jewish Feasts...

Lev 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

These are not the Feasts of the Jews, these are God's Feasts.

He was speaking to a Jewish client /friend who told him the biggest reason Jews felt unable to take christians seriously was because ( apart from not believing Jesus was the one ) that they followed who they believed to be the Jewish Messiah but then went and changed all the feast days etc.
Is there any biblical back up for the church changing these things and then putting most of our festival dates on top of pagan holidays?
What thoughts on this.
I haven't explained myself very well hope you all understand what I'm on about.

Where are Chirstmas and Easter commanded? Are they found in the Bible...

Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
Jer 10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Eze 8:15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
Eze 8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

Like unto an Easter sunrise service.