DO YOU THINK ADAM AND EVE REALIZE ALL THE TROUBLE THEY CAUSED ?

[glad4mercy]

Sorry. Should read

Man is not corrupt by nature, else he would NOT be able to do righteousness by nature, giving God praise.

Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Do men do righteousness and give God the praise by nature, or do they have to become a new man by the Grace of God first? The phrase "by nature" is talking about being by nature uncircumcised in the flesh, ie Gentiles. Even unsaved people are obedient to some parts of the Law, yet we know that no unregenerate man keeps the Law in every point, and the James 2:10 says if you keep the whole Law, yet offend in one point, you are guilty of breaking the whole Law. Also, Paul said that all are under sin. Therefore, Paul is not saying that unregenerate Gentiles keep the Law, he is basically saying that they were keeping it a lot better than many of the Jews were. Just as today, many who profess to be Christians are put to shame by the morality of some unsaved people. This does not mean that the unsaved moral people are righteous, it just means that many professers are not possessors.

The circumcision of the heqrt has always been accomplished by faith and repentance, which God leads us to. In addition, we as Christians have the righteousness of the Law fulfilled in us by faith and because we walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh. Our righteousness is not in our human nature, we have no righteousness apart from what has been given by God.

[Noeb]

What do we have the ability to do that God doesnt enable us to do by His Spirit, Noeb? You tell me.

I did.

Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Yes really. Jesus said there is none good but God,

You said "Man is not good by nature" and Romans 2 disagrees. What you cite here has nothing to do with this. Again, what Jesus said was none is all good but God. Context. All men have sinned so it is impossible for a man to be saved by works of law alone. That's what the passage says.

Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

and Paul said there is none righteous, no not one.

Same as the other. All have sinned so there is none righteous as God is. Has nothing to do with the discussion.

Jesus also said that if men being evil

No he did not say man is born evil. He was talking to adults and said if you being evil. This says nothing about how a person is born.

Were we like the men in John 8, saying "we have never been in bondage, we are free"? OR do we admit that we were in bondage to sin, that we were slaves to sin until we were born from above. He who commits sin is the slave of sin.

I don't know how this is relevant either. How we end up says noting about how we are born.

Adam didnt lose his original righteousness when he sinned?

Where does it say he had it?

Adam and his descendants were just as free after the fall as Adam was before the fall?

Yes, all are born free. If that were not true you would not have sin.

Adam didn't lose his innocence,

yes he did

there was no change in his heart, his mind, his disposition, his affections,

these are not addressed. Why would they have changed just because he committed a sin?

his spiritual strength?

That was probably hurt, if I had to guess. Sin does that to us if we let it, and we all have to learn that lesson.

So the act of sin did not cause him to become without strength, and a slave of sin?

What strength did he have before he sinned? And you are a slave when that is what you continually do. Not because that is what you did.

Jesus did and does the works of His Father. Fallen man largely does the works of the devil. If this does not constitute a change in nature, we must at least admit that something in man was radically altered by the fall.

Not IN, OF. Relationship changed, not nature. If nature changed how do Gentiles do the law by nature by God's praise?

Would Adam have been good enough to live forever if he had resisted the temptation to eat of the forbidden fruit? What do you say, Noeb?

Adam was to do what Jesus did. Nothing in scripture says he could not have. I take that back, scripture says he could have else the whole thing is a sham and we've been set up.

If Adam was not created righteous, how did he walk with God?

He was innocent. Just like we are born. Innocent. How did Enoch and Noah walk with God?

What exactly do infants have the ability to do?

What they are trained to do, which is the point They are raised in a world without direct commandments from God (but law on their heart), without the same relationship Adam had. Raised carnal because that's what Adam's sin did. Sold them into carnality. To be in this world without God, and to only know 'feed, comfort, please the flesh'. Brought forth in iniquity. Come as a flower and quickly die -Job.

Adam was the first natural, unregenerate man ( did the prefall Adam need a new birth?) , but he was upright, free, and unfettered until he sinned. This has not been true of any human that has had the capacity to make moral decisions since the Fall, ( except of course, Christ.)

I gave you scripture that says we are born upright. We all know we are free to sin and once we do we are free to stop. You did not continue to sin all your sins after the first time you did them. You did indeed feel guilty, choose to never do it again, and were successful by nature -Rom 2. This is true of all men and the degree varies, which is why some are more righteous than others by nature. Many, many, many factors are involved, mostly their upbringing in how they are raised. But we are all raised without the 'garden relationship' that Adam and Christ had.

[Noeb]

Proponents of sin nature say......
we sin because we have a sin nature.
But we just found scripture that says.......
we do righteousness by nature.
So, using their logic I must conclude we have a righteous nature (which I don't). But now we have one nature that is both sinful and righteous. What to do?

[Noeb]

Do men do righteousness and give God the praise by nature, or do they have to become a new man by the Grace of God first?

It plainly says by nature.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

he is basically saying that they were keeping it a lot better than many of the Jews were.

Yes by nature.

Just as today, many who profess to be Christians are put to shame by the morality of some unsaved people.

Yes by nature.

The circumcision of the heqrt has always been accomplished by faith and repentance, which God leads us to.

Yup
Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Our righteousness is not in our human nature, we have no righteousness apart from what has been given by God.

Don't confuse righteousness with what will save us.

[glad4mercy]

It plainly says by nature.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

The word righteousness is not found in Romans 2:14. Here are some verses that describe true righteousness, the type of righteousness that is accepted by God.

Romans 1:17- For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Romans 3:22- This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Romans 4:3- What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Romans 4:5- However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness

Romans 10:3- Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

Yes by nature

Yet if God completely abandons one to their own way, what do they become? God shows a measure of grace even to the unsaved, does He not?

Yes by nature.

No, by being taught the difference between right and wrong. If you don't believe this, take a look at someone who has not been taught right and wrong, nor ever disciplined by their parents. If one is left entirely to their own nature, they will be utterly wicked and lawless. God restrains evil to some degree not only through the conscience, but also through the instruction of parents, the laws of government, etc. Remove these, and you will see a vastly different outcome. If a child is not instructed in righteousness or at least morality, they will be very evil. Yet no one needs to teach a child to be selfish, disobedient, rebelliious etc. These things come quite natural, do they not?

Yup
Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Psalm 51; 10- Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Israelites were called to circumcise their hearts because they were already in a covenantal relationship with God, but even then it could not be accomplished by mere strength or willpower. Man has always been saved, and circumcised in heart by Grace through faith. In the OT, it was through faith in the Saviour that would come, in the New it is faith in the Saviour that has come. Everything has always been by Grace through faith.

Just as I am without one plea, but that thy blood was shed for me and that thou biddest me come to thee, O Lamb of God I come, I come.

They were under the Old Covenant, and God enabled them to circumcize their hearts by faith.
We are under the New Covenant, and God enables us to be circumcised in heart through faith. Yet it is God that transforms the inner man, not we ourselves. All we can do, ( or they could do) is repent ( turn from sin to God), believe, and then allow God to cleanse, purify, and transform the heart.

Don't confuse righteousness with what will save us.

It's not what will save us, but who will save us. It is God who saves us. The only thing we can do is to come to the God who is already bidding us to come. Just as I am without one plea, but that thy blood was shed for me and that thou biddest me come to thee, O Lamb of God I come, I come.

[Noeb]

The word righteousness is not found in Romans 2:14.

Yes it is
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

2:13-15 says
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Now you aren't really going to say that doing the law on our heart is not righteous are you? No. No, you are not, and you can't. Because you already agreed Paul's point was that Gentiles did the law and the Jews didn't. Gentiles are the uncircumcision, and doing the righteousness of the law is righteous, period.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Talk of righteousness has nothing to do with all this other stuff you want to talk about for some reason. The discussion is about our nature not if, how, and when we are saved. This passage is proof we are not born with a sin nature, because it is of God that men do the law written on their heart. God said
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

and not only is there not one verse is all of scripture that contradicts this, there are verses that verify it remained true. Total Inability is false.

[Noeb]

No, by being taught the difference between right and wrong. If you don't believe this, take a look at someone who has not been taught right and wrong, nor ever disciplined by their parents. If one is left entirely to their own nature, they will be utterly wicked and lawless. God restrains evil to some degree not only through the conscience, but also through the instruction of parents, the laws of government, etc. Remove these, and you will see a vastly different outcome. If a child is not instructed in righteousness or at least morality, they will be very evil. Yet no one needs to teach a child to be selfish, disobedient, rebelliious etc. These things come quite natural, do they not?

I said that already..............

What they are trained to do, which is the point They are raised in a world without direct commandments from God (but law on their heart), without the same relationship Adam had. Raised carnal because that's what Adam's sin did. Sold them into carnality. To be in this world without God, and to only know 'feed, comfort, please the flesh'. Brought forth in iniquity. Come as a flower and quickly die -Job.

I gave you scripture that says we are born upright. We all know we are free to sin and once we do we are free to stop. You did not continue to sin all your sins after the first time you did them. You did indeed feel guilty, choose to never do it again, and were successful by nature -Rom 2. This is true of all men and the degree varies, which is why some are more righteous than others by nature. Many, many, many factors are involved, mostly their upbringing in how they are raised. But we are all raised without the 'garden relationship' that Adam and Christ had.

[glad4mercy]

Originally Posted by glad4mercyWhat exactly do infants have the ability to do?
What they are trained to do, which is the point

So what has an infant been trained to do? Give me one or two examples.

They are raised in a world without direct commandments from God (but law on their heart),

I agree that man has the Law already written on their hearts, but I thought you said babies were born as a blank piece of paper.

Raised carnal

I did not ask what did "raised" people have the power to do, I asked what do infants have the power to do.

To be in this world without God, and to only know 'feed, comfort, please the flesh'.

Who, infants or raised people? If raised people, What? They don't have the Law written in their hearts and the Holy Spirit drawing and convicting them and in many cases the Gospel preached to them? They have not conscience and general revelation? They don't have the heavens declaring to them the Glory of God. They don't have the voice of God speaking to them in many different ways.

The problem is not that God is not calling them or that the truth is not available. The problem is that the truth is suppressed!!!

I gave you scripture that says we are born upright.

It did not say that man was born upright, it said that man was made upright. You are misquoting the scripture.

You did not continue to sin all your sins after the first time you did them. You did indeed feel guilty, choose to never do it again, and were successful by nature -Rom 2.

Before I got saved, I only stopped committing sins that I found to be detrimental to me in some way. I never stopped committing sins for righteousness sake until I was born from above. Even the good things that I appeared to do were contaminated by pride, selfish ambition, and impure motives, so even my righteousnesses were as filthy rags until I came to Jesus.

...we are born upright.

We are born innocent of personal transgressions, and we are born without the capacity to know right from wrong. As soon as we reach the age where we are capable of making moral decisions, knowing right from wrong, and choosing right from wrong, we end up showing how upright we really are.

This is true of all men and the degree varies, which is why some are more righteous than others by nature.

There is none righteous, no not one!

Many, many, many factors are involved, mostly their upbringing in how they are raised.

All of this makes no difference at all, for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. It's like saying that a cup of water with an ammount of arsenic that will kill you without fail is not as bad as pure 100% arsenic.

[Noeb]

So what has an infant been trained to do? Give me one or two examples.

Training a child begins at infancy. Lack of restraint is more a trainer than anything else, and I know of no greater restraint than a relationship with God, which infants do not have. So what do they have other than carnality? Sold by Adam's sin.

I agree that man has the Law already written on their hearts, but I thought you said babies were born as a blank piece of paper.

If you think these are contradictory you are mistaken. Blank piece of paper were your words. I said innocent. If you meant something else you did not communicate it. I agreed with blank piece of paper because we were talking about whether or not we are born with sin and a sin nature or with righteousness. I said neither, we are innocent. Nothing on our account.

[glad4mercy]

Training a child begins at infancy. Lack of restraint is more a trainer than anything else, and I know of no greater restraint than a relationship with God, which infants do not have. So what do they have other than carnality? Sold by Adam's sin.


If you think these are contradictory you are mistaken. Blank piece of paper were your words. I said innocent. If you meant something else you did not communicate it. I agreed with blank piece of paper because we were talking about whether or not we are born with sin and a sin nature or with righteousness. I said neither, we are innocent. Nothing on our account.

The context of the question made it very clear what I was asking.

So you believe that our nature is neither good nor evil when we are born, that basically we are a blank piece of paper?

[Noeb]

Right. That's what I said, so what is the point of this?

I agree that man has the Law already written on their hearts, but I thought you said babies were born as a blank piece of paper.

BTW; when I posted all that was there was the 2 quotes. If you are going to continue to add to it and it takes you a little time, please make another post. You added about 7 more things I did not see until now. This is not the first or even 5th time this has happened. I would see another post but I may not catch these edits, some 10 or 20 minutes later. Thanks!

[Noeb]

I did not ask what did "raised" people have the power to do, I asked what do infants have the power to do.

Same. I answered this already.

"Training a child begins at infancy. Lack of restraint is more a trainer than anything else, and I know of no greater restraint than a relationship with God, which infants do not have. So what do they have other than carnality? Sold by Adam's sin."

The problem is not that God is not calling them or that the truth is not available. The problem is that the truth is suppressed!!!

Don't deceive yourself. Truth cannot be suppressed if you don't have it and are accountable to it. They HOLD the truth. KJV is correct. That is how the word is used throughout scripture. It is held. Not resisted, as if never possessed.

It did not say that man was born upright, it said that man was made upright. You are misquoting the scripture.

There are no more straws for you to grasp.

Before I got saved, I only stopped committing sins that I found to be detrimental to me in some way. I never stopped committing sins for righteousness sake until I was born from above. Even the good things that I appeared to do were contaminated by pride, selfish ambition, and impure motives, so even my righteousnesses were as filthy rags until I came to Jesus.

Then either you do not understand or you are lying. I say you do not understand. Fact; everyone has many sins they did and never did again simply because of their nature.

[glad4mercy]

Right. That's what I said, so what is the point of this?
BTW; when I posted all that was there was the 2 quotes. If you are going to continue to add to it and it takes you a little time, please make another post. You added about 7 more things I did not see until now. This is not the first or even 5th time this has happened. I would see another post but I may not catch these edits, some 10 or 20 minutes later. Thanks!

Sorry Noeb, but I have an old computer that crashes a lot, so I often type a little post it, and then add more. Otherwise, I lose a whole post if my computer crashes. It is not intentional. I probably had to post the two quotes to avoid losing them, and then continued posting. I know from reading other's posts, I am not the only one who spent much time or effort typing out a response, only to see the dreaded "Internet stopped working" thing on my screen. Also, I edit my posts quite a bit. I could type it out on a Word document and finish edit it before I post it if that would make you feel better. Also, sometimes I have to go back and find previous posts to quote them.
Believe me, I'm not reading your posts and then changing mine after the fact as if I am merely trying to win an argument. It would be truly sad if being right or winning an argument was more important to me than being loving or speaking the truth. I am not here to win a debate, I am here to learn and to share what little I know.

Anyways, the original quote from the beginning, ( as quoted by you) in post 250 of Old Earth and original sin was worded this way...

Quote from Glad4Mercy- So you believe that our nature is neither good nor evil when we are born,

You posted this exact quote and answered in the affirmative. Now you are saying that man was born upright. I see a contradiction here. Perhaps you misunderstood the original question, so I will grant that. Seeing that I am not here to merely win a debate, I will leave it at that. You must decide for yourself if you think man is born neutral, sinful, or upright.

[glad4mercy]

By the way, what did I add to post 239 of Old Earth and original sin that you did not see until now? Or are you speaking of a different post.

[Noeb]

You posted this exact quote and answered in the affirmative. Now you are saying that man was born upright. I see a contradiction here. Perhaps you misunderstood the original question, so I will grant that. Seeing that I am not here to merely win a debate, I will leave it at that. You must decide for yourself if you think man is born neutral, sinful, or upright.

You don't get to decide what a word means. Upright is not righteous as God is righteous. Man was created innocent and upright.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

H3477
ישׁר
yâshâr
yaw-shawr'
From H3474; straight (literally or figuratively): - convenient, equity, Jasher, just, meet (-est), + pleased well right (-eous), straight, (most) upright (-ly, -ness).

BDB Definition:
1) straight, upright, correct, right
1a) straight, level
1b) right, pleasing, correct
1c) straightforward, just, upright, fitting, proper
1d) uprightness, righteous, upright
1e) that which is upright (substantive)

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 17:8 Upright men shall be astonied at this, and the innocent shall stir up himself against the hypocrite.

Psa 7:10 My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

Psa 33:1 Rejoice in the LORD, O ye righteous: for praise is comely for the upright.

Psa 36:10 O continue thy lovingkindness unto them that know thee; and thy righteousness to the upright in heart.

Psa 37:14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.

Psa 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.

Psa 112:2 His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.

Psa 140:13 Surely the righteous shall give thanks unto thy name: the upright shall dwell in thy presence.

Pro 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.

Pro 11:3 The integrity of the upright shall guide them: but the perverseness of transgressors shall destroy them.

Pro 11:6 The righteousness of the upright shall deliver them: but transgressors shall be taken in their own naughtiness.

Pro 11:11 By the blessing of the upright the city is exalted: but it is overthrown by the mouth of the wicked.

Pro 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Pro 21:18 The wicked shall be a ransom for the righteous, and the transgressor for the upright.

Pro 29:27 An unjust man is an abomination to the just: and he that is upright in the way is abomination to the wicked.

Isa 26:7 The way of the just is uprightness: thou, most upright, dost weigh the path of the just.