Taking up serpents

[Free Indeed]

It is my understanding that these verses were not in the original texts, but were added later by some unknown "scholar". Anybody know the history of this?

[HoboTone]

Is the picking up of snakes and doing shots of poison a means to witness? I would say NO due to examples throughout the scriptures

Hey Slug, remember this one;

The Lord said, "Throw it on the ground."
Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it. Then the Lord said to him, "Reach out your hand and take it by the tail." So Moses reached out and took hold of the snake and it turned back into a staff in his hand. "This," said the Lord , "is so that they may believe that the Lord , the God of their fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has appeared to you."-Exodus 4:3-5

Consider these two points when weighing out the validity of this passage in Mark;
1) Jesus was speaking to Jews, who being taught from the Torah, would immediately have recognized the taking up of serpents as a sign of God's power during their deliverance from slavery in Egypt. Delegating the signs performed by Moses to the Jews gathered there would have been a very big deal.
2) Moses was the Old Testament type for Jesus, so it would be perfectly reasonable to find signs performed by Moses to be referenced by Jesus, and his followers would have understood exactly how much authority he was giving them.

With these points in mind, I think this passage in Mark fits perfectly into canon. I'm not running off to Kentucky to dance with timber rattlers, but I don't think this passage is so easily written off.

Check out "Salvation on Sand Mountain" by Dennis Covington, its a fascinating book about the Appalachian holiness churches. Well worth the read.

[awestruckchild]

I think it would do you well to take a course in hermeneutics. Believe it or not, God didn't give his teachings as a great mystery to be interpreted solely by those with gifted powers of interpretation. They are given to us to read and understand. It is only when we start believing that there is no way that we can understand those words that we rely on others who will then be able to lead us astray.

Beware of those who would hide the truth of God by making your think that God did not have the ability to give you his teachings in plain and simple words. Not every lesson is a mystery.

Jesus was hidden in the OT....BIG mystery. They knew they were waiting for someone though....but there was not a real understanding. There were arguments about WHERE He would come from. It wasn't until they saw it fulfilled that they were able to see that He DID in fact come from three places.
They ARE in plain and simple words. But the flesh avails nothing. It is the Spirit that avails a man.Our human understanding has no problem with understanding that we are not to choke someone to death. It DOES, however, have problems with being able to understand the scope of what constitutes murder in God's mind.
And if God made them so plain and simple, why did Jesus say He came to reveal things hidden from the foundation of the world? And why did He say it wasn't FOR everyone to understand the parables? Why did they need HIM to explain them to them? They needed them explained, but no one else does?

[awestruckchild]

Looking at the taking up of serpents, and the drinking of poison, in the spiritual sense made me think of deceptions.

I have more thoughts about this, but not really sure how to put it into words?

I really want to hear this if and when it becomes more clear!!! Fascinating!

[awestruckchild]

I think it would do you well to take a course in hermeneutics. Believe it or not, God didn't give his teachings as a great mystery to be interpreted solely by those with gifted powers of interpretation. They are given to us to read and understand. It is only when we start believing that there is no way that we can understand those words that we rely on others who will then be able to lead us astray.

Beware of those who would hide the truth of God by making your think that God did not have the ability to give you his teachings in plain and simple words. Not every lesson is a mystery.

The Holy Spirit is the one who guides to all truth.
He does this with His voice.
My sheep know My voice.
We need Him to understand the scriptures.
The words on the page alone cannot guide a man to all truth. He must receive the Spirit because only HE can explain God's mind to someone.
We are not born with what we need to understand scripture. No man can give us what we need to understand it. No course TAUGHT by men can do it.
There is no real danger of being led astray if you obey His voice.

[awestruckchild]

Well Slug,

The Pharisees were called a "brood of Vipers" so in that context, perhaps one walking in the Spirit can "handle" every argument or "stronghold" of deception that attempts to stand against Gods Truth. The Law cannot kill someone who trusts in Christs death and resurrection. He took away the "sting" (poison) of death?

This is most excellent!

[Slug1]

Well Slug,

The Pharisees were called a "brood of Vipers" so in that context, perhaps one walking in the Spirit can "handle" every argument or "stronghold" of deception that attempts to stand against Gods Truth. The Law cannot kill someone who trusts in Christs death and resurrection. He took away the "sting" (poison) of death?

I had to login from guest mode after reading this... YES, I agree.

The spiritual "meaning" of the scriptures gets... deeper.

You see... here is the deal and this is based on personal experience.

Do the Lord's WORK, which DOES mean that sometimes this involves SUPERNATURAL manifestations through the power of the Holy Spirit. Bible is FULL of this very truth. However, some WILL try to "poison" this work that God does through servants.

Yes, I agree with you and ya want to know the sad part of this... most of the poison comes from the Body of Christ speaking out against the supernatural ways that God DOES use obedient servants.

They speak against signs/wonders because they believe they have ended and God continues to do them through servants out there in the world and when these UNbelievers "in" Christ speak against the Holy Spirit... those servants, WALK right over them and essentially drink up all the poison (words). The "poison" is ignored and they continue to DO as God leads them and EMPOWERS them all while others speak (poison) against them.

Good stuff!!

[Slug1]

Hey Slug, remember this one;

The Lord said, "Throw it on the ground."
Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it. Then the Lord said to him, "Reach out your hand and take it by the tail." So Moses reached out and took hold of the snake and it turned back into a staff in his hand. "This," said the Lord , "is so that they may believe that the Lord , the God of their fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has appeared to you."-Exodus 4:3-5

Consider these two points when weighing out the validity of this passage in Mark;
1) Jesus was speaking to Jews, who being taught from the Torah, would immediately have recognized the taking up of serpents as a sign of God's power during their deliverance from slavery in Egypt. Delegating the signs performed by Moses to the Jews gathered there would have been a very big deal.
2) Moses was the Old Testament type for Jesus, so it would be perfectly reasonable to find signs performed by Moses to be referenced by Jesus, and his followers would have understood exactly how much authority he was giving them.

With these points in mind, I think this passage in Mark fits perfectly into canon. I'm not running off to Kentucky to dance with timber rattlers, but I don't think this passage is so easily written off.

Check out "Salvation on Sand Mountain" by Dennis Covington, its a fascinating book about the Appalachian holiness churches. Well worth the read.

There is much in any "true" holiness movement that crosses that line of "cult". Something to really be careful of.

I've also studied a lot we find in the old testament, specially concerning the period when Moses was an active prophet for the nation of Israel. Snakes were used in ways to symbolized both death and healing and get this... PROTECTION.

As for the Mark 16 scriptures fitting into the Canon... they have too because SO MANY OTHERS in both OT and NT, mean the same thing or at least SUPPORT the meaning. In other words, the Mark 16 scriptures CAN be fully divided with many other scriptures, ESPECIALLY concerning the protection element of the potion dealing with serpents/poison.

We do have what Scooby raised and I support her thoughts and observations... even those scriptures concerning what the Pharisee's were attempting to do to Christ by speaking AGAINST Him... many today do the same and God protects against their "words" that are false and accusatory and literally TWIST meaning. This continues today from both outside and INside, the Body of Christ. Yet... we are protected against what is spoken against God.

Heres a thought... since speaking AGAINST a servant when God uses them in a way that "they" don't believe in and their words are AGAINST the one who God is using... are such words "curses"?

If so... would such words be considered... poison?

[Reynolds357]

It is my understanding that these verses were not in the original texts, but were added later by some unknown "scholar". Anybody know the history of this?

Yeah, there are numerous threads on here about it. The evidence does not seem compelling either way.

[Boo]

Yeah, there are numerous threads on here about it. The evidence does not seem compelling either way.

Actually, yes it does. The languate used, the references being out of context with the time in which it was written and the lack of a semblence of fitting all give credence to the idea that it was added. Then, when we see that it all was missing from older manuscripts, it becomes obvious.

[Boo]

The Holy Spirit is the one who guides to all truth.
He does this with His voice.
My sheep know My voice.
We need Him to understand the scriptures.
The words on the page alone cannot guide a man to all truth. He must receive the Spirit because only HE can explain God's mind to someone.
We are not born with what we need to understand scripture. No man can give us what we need to understand it. No course TAUGHT by men can do it.
There is no real danger of being led astray if you obey His voice.

People are led astray every day. If you actually believe that you cannot understand the message that God left for us and that it is a mystery beyond comprehension, there is danger in that. While certain ideas are deep or unanswered for us, there is no mystery in the Gospel Message if we accept it for what it says - literally.

[Acquired Person]

[I]
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

18they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”


All of that being literal as I see it, I must wonder why I do not read about those eleven playing with snakes and drinking poison but I do about casting out demons and speaking in tongues.

Hi Boo

These signs are not just for the eleven, but for all those who have believed.

[awestruckchild]

People are led astray every day. If you actually believe that you cannot understand the message that God left for us and that it is a mystery beyond comprehension, there is danger in that. While certain ideas are deep or unanswered for us, there is no mystery in the Gospel Message if we accept it for what it says - literally.

Not if they know and follow His voice they aren't.
He is faithful.
And as to, say....the verses about the Holy Spirit coming and being baptized from above with Him, there simply IS no way to comprehend those verses until you EXPERIENCE them. And the verses about His voice? There IS no way to comprehend them. You do not have the ears to hear until you are cured of your deafness.
Yes, many are led astray. But not those who know His voice.
They might walk around a little confused about what God is up to a lot of the time, but they KNOW when He has spoken, and that is what they follow.
It is apparent to those who know His voice that it is only when they DON'T listen to and obey it that they go astray for a time.

There were men in Israel who had devoted their entire lives to studying the scriptures. Yet Jesus told them their mistake was that they did not understand scripture. Isn't this proof that human understanding is not enough?
He also said to teachers of scripture - you are a teacher and you do not understand this?

[keck553]

Not to throw a bucket of water on the thread, but I believe the apostolic age is long over.

[awestruckchild]

People are led astray every day. If you actually believe that you cannot understand the message that God left for us and that it is a mystery beyond comprehension, there is danger in that. While certain ideas are deep or unanswered for us, there is no mystery in the Gospel Message if we accept it for what it says - literally.

Just thought of something else, Boo.
If we really believed as we said we do, we would not store up treasure on earth.
We do this specifically because we do NOT believe what He said about God clothing and feeding us. We do it because we believe the world when it says we will be eating catfood in our old age if we do not. But this is not what Jesus said would happen to us. He said that if God clothes flowers so beautifully, won't He take care of us even more? We do it because we do not want Him to be our security. We don't WANT to depend on Him dropping that manna everyday. We don't even trust that He WILL do as He has said He will. Yet we say we believe. And because of their unbelief, He could not do many miracles there.
If we believe, we do as He says.
If we say we believe and we do not do as He says, we are lying.
If Adam and Eve had believed Him, they would have done as God said. It was unbelief and mistrust, plain and simple. Because if someone says you will die if you eat something, and you eat it anyway, there can only be one reason - you do not BELIEVE what they said.
And if we aren't faithful in a little thing like trusting Him in this, we should not expect to be given any more and should even expect that what little understanding we DO have will be taken from us.