Taking up serpents

[Scooby_Snacks]

Mark 16:¹⁸ they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

I was hoping that we can have a discussion concerning the "taking up serpents" portion of this scripture and discuss this.

Does the portion concerning the taking up snakes have ONLY a "physical" meaning or can this be of or also include a "spiritual" meaning as well?

I ask because of such scriptures such as this:

Physically related:

Acts 28:3 But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand. ⁴ So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live.” ⁵ But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm.

What I find curious about this area of scripture is the instant judgement of the people on the island concerning the serpent latching onto Paul. They think to themselves, he is a bad man, because something bad is happening to him.
But truth prevails, He is a vessel proclaiming The Gospel that can free all from eternal death.

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.(1 Corinthians 15:56-57 ESV)

Spiritually related:

Luke 10:¹⁹ Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Again, anyone with tough enough boots can trample on physical snakes and scorpions, but what is added is that these are a part of the enemies power, and why I choose deception, because it is what I see as the vehicle for evil.

Now, to be straight up... the reason I've started this is because those who don't accept the Mark 16:18 scripture as part of the Canon can also clearly see the MEANING of the Mark 16:18 scripture is covered by other scriptures in the Bible. So, even if the Mark 16:18 scriptures never existed, the meaning is still valid.

I did have to read about the issues with this scripture in order to respond. I believe the gifts of the spirit cover all of the areas mentioned. I personally pray in tongues, but it is in private. I cannot deny it. This gift came upon me after I asked Him to receive it, in His timing this occurred when I was alone. So why if I speak in tongues, would I not be able, if surrendered and given His ability, be able to do any of these others?

Casting out demons seems to go hand in hand with healing in several passages of scripture.

Discernment is the gift I connect with the serpents and poison, which do seem to be those things that would infect the flesh.

[Boo]

Just thought of something else, Boo.
If we really believed as we said we do, we would not store up treasure on earth.
We do this specifically because we do NOT believe what He said about God clothing and feeding us. We do it because we believe the world when it says we will be eating catfood in our old age if we do not. But this is not what Jesus said would happen to us. He said that if God clothes flowers so beautifully, won't He take care of us even more? We do it because we do not want Him to be our security. We don't WANT to depend on Him dropping that manna everyday. We don't even trust that He WILL do as He has said He will. Yet we say we believe. And because of their unbelief, He could not do many miracles there.
If we believe, we do as He says.
If we say we believe and we do not do as He says, we are lying.
If Adam and Eve had believed Him, they would have done as God said. It was unbelief and mistrust, plain and simple. Because if someone says you will die if you eat something, and you eat it anyway, there can only be one reason - you do not BELIEVE what they said.
And if we aren't faithful in a little thing like trusting Him in this, we should not expect to be given any more and should even expect that what little understanding we DO have will be taken from us.

It seems to me that you believe that I am claiming that one does not need Holy Spirit to help with our understanding. I am not trying to say that - I firmly believe that we will fall short of our comprehending without God's help.

I am also aware of those who have said that they fully trust God and do not seek possessions. I do find it interesting that they tell me that over the internet using their computers from their homes.

I would ask that you put some thought into the idea of being led by THE Spirit versus being led by A spirit. Many who join cults today claim to be led by The Spirit, when it is obvious to most that they are following someone else. We have scriptures translated into our language by those who follow Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Those words in our language are to be understood by us - that's why they were given to us. Without reading them, understanding them, searching through them; we have no knowledge with which the Holy Spirit to enlighten us.

It is not a book of mysteries, though there are mysteries contained in it.

[awestruckchild]

But I think the point is this...


Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover

In my name shall they cast out devils. If that is literal...

They shall speak with new tongues. If that is literal...

they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. If that is literal...


Then it's not only unreasonable, but it is also inconsistent if the following is not literal.

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;


It would be understood like such.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they LITERALLY cast out devils; they shall LITERALLY speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up NON LITERAL serpents; and if they drink any NON LITERAL deadly thing, it shall not LITERALLY hurt them; they LITERALLY shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall LITERALLY recover

That is one messed up way to interpret Scriptures IMO. BTW, not how I would interpret it myself. Just trying to illustrate a point.

In re-reading your post, I think I finally understand what you are saying.
You see no reason to not take all of it literally - all the things mentioned.
I see no reason to not take all of them literally as well.
But the literal understanding of the words does not mean the words are not spirit as well.
Human reasoning and understanding are enough to read and understand the words as one would understand any words they read from any book.
But the words are also spirit just as Jesus said.
It is the spirit that avails a man anything, not the flesh. Understanding in his flesh is a different thing than what slug was meaning.

[Boo]

In re-reading your post, I think I finally understand what you are saying.
You see no reason to not take all of it literally - all the things mentioned.
I see no reason to not take all of them literally as well.
But the literal understanding of the words does not mean the words are not spirit as well.
Human reasoning and understanding are enough to read and understand the words as one would understand any words they read from any book.
But the words are also spirit just as Jesus said.
It is the spirit that avails a man anything, not the flesh. Understanding in his flesh is a different thing than what slug was meaning.

I think I am beginning to see your view. Correct me if I am wrong here, but I sense that you think that there are two meanings in each passage? If what is plainly written is taken as literal, you see that God meant it to be applied in some spiritual way as well?

[awestruckchild]

I agree... specifically the message of the Gospel. It's target is the lost who have NO Holy Spirit. So this is why the Holy Spirit is needed to draw them TO the words (Logos of the Bible) used and the message of the Gospel. It's AFTER a person accepts Christ that the Holy Spirit begins the "changing" process inside a person and this involves the "Rhema of the Bible" where revelation and enlightenment or illumination of meaning of the scriptures can begin to happen. This is usually when the Holy Spirit helps the understanding of the spiritual meaning and also when He uses scripture to allow a person to see inside themselves when the Holy Spirit points out to them what is in need of change.

Now with that said, in the case and discussion topic for this thread (as I'm sure Awestruck is referring too)... is there both a physical (logos) and spiritual (rhema) meaning to the word "serpents" that we find used in scriptures?

The serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field. He had the ability to convince Eve. He is so subtle today that we don't even see him. He is expert at twisting the word and making us think it is perfectly logical. You pick up the serpent and he does not harm you every time you do not run from him but instead pick apart his subtle lies that are a siren song for men. You pick him up and pick him apart to show others what he is and what he is made of. But he does not harm or infect you. You are not harmed by the poison/leaven. You are able to determine right from wrong and to choose the right.
You ARE handling a deadly serpent and coming away unharmed. You ARE handling his poison and not being harmed by it as other men are.
He did not harm Eve with a literal snake bite and literal snake bite poison. He harmed Eve with hissing and whispering subtly in her ear until she was convinced of the lie.
He did it with intent and insistence just as he still does.
He is not that smart. We are just that dumb.
He is subtle and we are so dense in spirit.

[awestruckchild]

I think I am beginning to see your view. Correct me if I am wrong here, but I sense that you think that there are two meanings in each passage? If what is plainly written is taken as literal, you see that God meant it to be applied in some spiritual way as well?

Yes! Most definitely!!

[Boo]

Yes! Most definitely!!

Thank you. I was beginning to see that, and you seem to like that method. I don't follow it myself. Here is my list or "rules" for understanding scripture:

9 PRINCIPLES OF INTERPRETING SCRIPTURE.

I. FOLLOW THE CUSTOMARY USAGES OF THE LANGUAGE. "If the literal sense makes sense, seek no other sense."

II. CONSIDER THE HISTORY AND CULTURE AT THE TIME OF THE WRITING.

III. BE CONSCIOUS OF CONTEXT. "Any TEXT without CONTEXT is a PRETEXT for a PROOFTEXT."

IV. APPLY ONE INTERPRETATION TO EACH PASSAGE. There will never be two correct ones.

V. CHOOSE THE SIMPLEST ALTERNATIVE.

VI. NEVER INVENT EXPLANATIONS TO SILENT AREAS OF SCRIPTURE.

VII. NEVER THEORIZE TO ACCOMMODATE PERSONAL VIEWS.

VII. NEVER BASE A DOCTRINE ON ONE PASSAGE OF SCRIPTURE.

VIII. CONSULT THE AVAILABLE MANUSCRIPTS AND SEVERAL TRANSLATIONS OF THE BIBLE IN ORDER TO EXAMINE THE POSSIBLE MEANINGS - GOD HAS GIVEN US MANY RESOURCES TO HELP WITH OUR UNDERSTANDING.

IX. - Lastly, GOD GAVE US MANY BOOKS AND WRITINGS WHICH ARE NOW CANON. THEY ALL ASSIST IN UNDERSTANDING EACH OTHER. SCRIPTURE WILL HELP US DECIDE WHICH MEANINGS WERE INTENDED BY THE WRITER - SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF. IF IT APPEARS TO, THEN YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS WRONG.

[awestruckchild]

Then I think you should continue on as you do. Seek the literal meaning as you have been doing. Those rules that other men have taught work for you and you are content with them.

[Slug1]

Here is my list or "rules" for understanding scripture:

Boo... when David killed Goliath, do you understand both the literal meaning (at the minimum understanding... a giant causing fear is stopped) and also the "spiritual" meaning as well?

Let me ask this as well... would you consider the taunts by Goliath as equivalent to "poison" in what those words were able to do to the Israeli nation? Could Goliath be considered a "serpent" used by satan and David was the ONLY person to trample on him (Luke 10:19)???

[Slug1]

You probably won't have any problems finding literal examples. But can you also find spiritual examples, like you did with Luke 10:19?

Dave... in praying, I was led to this scripture concerning serpent trampling/poison consumption:

Matthew 15:16 So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”

Pretty much we can eat anything (poison on a spiritual level) and trample over (won't have control over us) all this and more concerning the example of the scripture from Matthew 15.

[Scooby_Snacks]

Dave... in praying, I was led to this scripture concerning serpent trampling/poison consumption:

Matthew 15:16 So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”

Pretty much we can eat anything (poison on a spiritual level) and trample over (won't have control over us) all this and more concerning the example of the scripture from Matthew 15.

The scripture given fits with Matthew 12:34, concerning what defiles a man.

[Slug1]

The scripture given fits with Matthew 12:34, concerning what defiles a man.

Hooah... the Holy Spirit sure is pointing out enough to help us all understand.

[Scooby_Snacks]

I wanted to bring up the scripture in Acts... Paul having placed the sticks in the fire, and the serpent clamping on his hand. When you mentioned "poisonous" words, (things that come out of the mouth from the heart) I did notice that the people on the island had this reaction: Paul must have done something bad, because something bad is happening to him, in regard to the snake biting him being some sort of punishment. So maybe, this can be brought in somehow, how we can allow Him to eliminate from the heart, our own accusatory judgements?

[Slug1]

I wanted to bring up the scripture in Acts... Paul having placed the sticks in the fire, and the serpent clamping on his hand. When you mentioned "poisonous" words, (things that come out of the mouth from the heart) I did notice that the people on the island had this reaction: Paul must have done something bad, because something bad is happening to him, in regard to the snake biting him being some sort of punishment. So maybe, this can be brought in somehow, how we can allow Him to eliminate from the heart, our own accusatory judgements?

Amen... when accusatory remarks or outright target accusations are directed at a person... which can be a form of a serpent/poison (such as a blasphemy or false witness type comments), those who put the "trampling on serpents" scripture into ACTION in their life... aren't AFFECTED at all!

Persecution... really, REALLY can affect a person. I've battled with this over the years, BUT... as a person comes to understand that DUE to Christ, they can withstand the worse of anything coming up against them... they persevere through it. So much so, it doesn't even affect them anymore. False witness still affects me unfortunately. For a person to twist my words into a different meaning and turn it all around so they can make a false point... I just call it out now. Paul had to himself, all throughout 2 Corinthians due to all the false accusations and twisting of Paul's words that people were doing while he was away from Corinth. We just have to continue to deal with this stuff today as well.

[Boo]

Boo... when David killed Goliath, do you understand both the literal meaning (at the minimum understanding... a giant causing fear is stopped) and also the "spiritual" meaning as well?

Let me ask this as well... would you consider the taunts by Goliath as equivalent to "poison" in what those words were able to do to the Israeli nation? Could Goliath be considered a "serpent" used by satan and David was the ONLY person to trample on him (Luke 10:19)???

I see the story as being the story of the power displayed by one who God puts against the giants. It is a true story and the point of God's power is well taken. That is the literal story and the lesson learned.

As for the rest, you can associate what you want with other words. The ending of Mark 16 cannot be a mix of literal and allegory just because someone wants it to be. It either is literal or it is not.