Taking up serpents

[Boo]

No... I take them as both. For all I know, in the countries I've been and happened to be glorifying God doing what I'm led to do... who knows if the indignant food I ate was poisoned. It's not like the example in the Bible is Paul was purposely seeking for that viper to bite him, he had no clue he was about to be bit. Seems that drinking poison would be the same.

Now am I saying this happened, NOPE. Based on all the meals I ate and no surprised reactions, I am sure there was never any poison. It's not however about pouring poison in a shot glass and saying, "look at me". It's more, something happens unplanned by the victim, God protects the person and this GETS peoples attention so they are open to the Gospel.

This is not the same thing as drinking poison intentionally. If you actually believe this, then I guess it is safe for me to pour poison in your food because I know it can't hurt you. Since you know it, too, then you wouldn't mind.

The Book of Enoch is also voted by man, not to be a part of the Canon. Yet, parts of the Book of Enoch is quoted in the Canon... does this make any sense to you?

The requirements of the group who decided which books of the bible were to be considered "breathed out by God" had determined the Enoch did not meet those requirements. I was not there, of course, but their decision on what to include made sense if we are to treat the books as "God breathed."

Now, I'm not asking this to counter your question, I'm asking this to show you something. There are OTHER scriptures in the Bible that MEAN the exact same thing that the Mark 16 scriptures mean. So even IF the Mark 16 scriptures were man made, the MEANING isn't man made.

No, there is no other place in the bible that indicates that I can pour poison in your food or a rattlesnake in your bed and you'll be OK. You can decide for yourself if the other examples mean that, if you want to, but I don't see it. Stepping on scorpions is not the same as playing with rattlesnakes or drinking poison.

This thread is full of them... No, it is not. It is however, full of other verses that may contain one of the same words but not the same meaning.

This is a discussion, I'm not applying anything. The scriptures apply themselves and this discussion is to discuss those applications. Or in some cases... "discover" more scriptures and learn what THEY apply in relation to all the others. Divide scriptures with scriptures.

This is the process of learning God's (doctrine) truth and destroying man's (doctrinal) truth.

No, I don't think it is learning God's truth. It is taking what some scribe decided to add to the ending of Mark to make it more "fitting" to what the writer thought it should be. It makes plain black and white statements that people now want to allegorize. This ending contradicts the scriptures by saying that it is OK to tempt God with serpents and poison.

Hooah... you've made an official statement.

So here is where discussion can begin... with the provision of all the other scriptures about serpents, do these also only have a "physical" meaning?

Sermons that are available online and in books are full of cases where people make literal statements have a spiritual meaning for others. That does not mean that they were ever meant that way. That is a human failing to assign spiritual significance to something that was never intended. If I were to want to start a cult, the best way to do it would be to pervert scripture to mean things that it never intended to convey. I am aware that there are those who love to think that they operate on some higher spiritual plateau than other people because they can apply literal messages to the spiritual world. I think that God gave us enough spiritual ammunition to live with in the places where it was needed.

Now the task of hermeneutics is to realize that there is a God given meaning in Scripture. Scripture means something whether we see it or not. It means something in itself, and that meaning is determined by God, the Author, not by one who is going through some kind of mystical experience. The interpreter's task is to discern that meaning. To discover the meaning of the text in its proper setting, to draw the meaning out of the Scripture, rather than to read one's meaning into it.

All of this is complicated when we accept as scripture things that were never actually part of it.

I hope I answered your question.

I guess we have reached a point where we are never going to accept scriptural interpretation the same way. We obviously disagree on the acceptance of Mark 16 after verse 8. I refuse to include it in my readings any longer because I know it is not from God. Apparently, it is OK with you. At that point, there is no point in continuing this conversation.

You continued determination to imply that I am of a lesser spiritual nature than you and unfit for spiritual battles is getting too abrasive for me, and I really don't want to go there with anyone.

Have a blessed day, brother.

[Slug1]

You continued determination to imply that I am of a lesser spiritual nature than you and unfit for spiritual battles is getting too abrasive for me, and I really don't want to go there with anyone.

Boo, what you falsely accuse is just SO wrong...

My brother, you haven't offended me. I have taken no offense. I am not dropping hints about it, nor do I need to.

Believe me, if I choose to let your words offend me, I'll let you know; OK?

Would it not have been better to PM me with a question of whether or not I was taking offense?

I discerned correctly earlier this month when I brought to light that you were dropping hints that you are offended.

NOW... you have gone beyond hints and gone straight to false accusation.

My advice to you... since you have a need to make false accusations... then if you want to discuss this, start a thread in the Chat to Mods forum.

Any further false accusation related posts from you will be reported (like that last one) and then immediately deleted.

At that point, there is no point in continuing this conversation.

Then please don't continue to DO what you ARE doing in an attempt to tear the thread down, with false accusation since you have nothing more to discuss.

[Watchman]

This thread spawns a myriad of questions. I'll try to abstain from asking most of them, but one is salient. Scripture says, And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Scripture also says, The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

These passages, taken together, tell me that the enemy's plots will be foiled...not that folks can do whatever and they will not be harmed. What say you?

W

[Slug1]

This thread spawns a myriad of questions. I'll try to abstain from asking most of them, but one is salient. Scripture says, And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Scripture also says, The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

These passages, taken together, tell me that the enemy's plots will be foiled...not that folks can do whatever and they will not be harmed. What say you?

W

Interesting perspective shown by that scripture you added to the mix.

Do you feel that the viper biting Paul "could" have been an attempt by satan to foil what would be Paul's purpose to witness to those people? But the plan to foil Paul (ultimately trying to stop God from spreading word of His Son)... failed due to God's protection in accordance with the Mark 16 scriptures?

[Watchman]

Interesting perspective shown by that scripture you added to the mix.

Do you feel that the viper biting Paul "could" have been an attempt by satan to foil what would be Paul's purpose to witness to those people? But the plan to foil Paul (ultimately trying to stop God from spreading word of His Son)... failed due to God's protection in accordance with the Mark 16 scriptures?

Yes. I believe that is what happened. However, I don't believe Mark 16 should be used as it is sometimes used nowadays by 'snake handlers'. I believe Mark 16 points to divine protection when folks are doing what they have been sent to do.

W

[Slug1]

Yes. I believe that is what happened. However, I don't believe Mark 16 should be used as it is sometimes used nowadays by 'snake handlers'. I believe Mark 16 points to divine protection when folks are doing what they have been sent to do.

W

I agree... used "as" support to purposely handle snakes... is an error of context concerning this scripture.

[Slug1]

2 Corinthians 2:11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.


"Devices"... are these also "serpents"??

Such as "UNforgiveness" is a serpent to be trampled on so that person will "HAVE" a forgiving nature?

[Scooby_Snacks]

2 Corinthians 2:11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.


"Devices"... are these also "serpents"??

Such as "forgiveness" is a serpent to be trampled on so that person will "HAVE" a forgiving nature?

Im not seeing forgiveness as a serpent? Forgiveness is a good thing. But Im curious what you mean anyway.

[Slug1]

Im not seeing forgiveness as a serpent? Forgiveness is a good thing. But Im curious what you mean anyway.

WHOOPS!!

I went back to edit the post... UNforgiveness.

[Scooby_Snacks]

Ohh okay...
15.

[Boo]

With all these remarks about what could have been meant, what it "might" mean, and where other verses have one of two of the same words; it is still hermaneutics that should drive our understanding. Context is very important, and it is the context that I was going by. Here is a very interesting comment from a Pentacostal preacher. Is it possible that he is correct?

GORDON D. FEE
Professor Emeritus of New Testament Studies, Regent College.

Gordon currently serves as the general editor of the New International Commentary series as well as on the NIV review committee. He has written several New Testament commentaries.

Besides Dr. Fee's ability as a biblical scholar, he is a noted teacher and conference speaker. An ordained minister with the Assemblies of God, Dr. Fee is well known for his manifest concern for the renewal of the church.

"Pentecostals, in spite of some of their excesses, are frequently praised for recapturing for the church, her joyful radiance, missionary enthusiasm and life in the Spirit. But they are at the same time, noted for bad hermeneutics. First, their attitude toward Scripture regularly has included a general disregard for a scientific exegesis and carefully thought out hermeneutics. In fact, hermeneutics has simply not been a Pentecostal thing. Scripture is the Word of God and is to be obeyed. In place of scientific hermeneutics, there developed a kind of pragmatic hermeneutics. Obey what should be taken literally. Spiritualize, allegorize, or devotionalize the rest.

[Scooby_Snacks]

2 Corinthians 2:11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.


"Devices"... are these also "serpents"??

Such as "UNforgiveness" is a serpent to be trampled on so that person will "HAVE" a forgiving nature?

Whew..unforgiveness is a serpent.
It believes in its own justification for its bitterness and anger, yet in unforgiveness the enemy steals ones soul.
I know that sounds intense, but if we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven by God. No amount of "being right" holding unforgiveness toward anyone will ever set a person free. By holding onto unforgiveness, a person places themselves into bondage to satans power.

So how does God trample on unforgiveness?

[awestruckchild]

Whew..unforgiveness is a serpent.
It believes in its own justification for its bitterness and anger, yet in unforgiveness the enemy steals ones soul.
I know that sounds intense, but if we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven by God. No amount of "being right" holding unforgiveness toward anyone will ever set a person free. By holding onto unforgiveness, a person places themselves into bondage to satans power.

So how does God trample on unforgiveness?

And this unforgiveness is usually inner with us.
We will TELL ourselves or the other person that we forgive, but in our hearts we do not and eventually God makes it apparent to us and we can't hide from it any longer.
This also ties in to the verse: you who condemn others, why do you do the same thing?
Just because we can say:no one has caught me cheating!! -
does not mean God doesn't catch it!
We who walk in the newness of life that the Spirit brings, have a MORE meticulous law to follow, which He shows us, as we can bear it.

[awestruckchild]

And I don't know if this is going off track, but I have never been able to understand why it was a SERPENT the people had to look on to live.....

[Slug1]

And I don't know if this is going off track, but I have never been able to understand why it was a SERPENT the people had to look on to live.....

You are completely at a loss? Or what understanding you have, still adds up to, a loss?

If you have any understanding concerning that event with Moses, drop it in so we can discuss it.