Taking up serpents

[Slug1]

Mark 16:¹⁸ they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

I was hoping that we can have a discussion concerning the "taking up serpents" portion of this scripture and discuss this.

Does the portion concerning the taking up snakes have ONLY a "physical" meaning or can this be of or also include a "spiritual" meaning as well?

I ask because of such scriptures such as this:

Physically related:

Acts 28:3 But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand. ⁴ So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live.” ⁵ But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm.

Spiritually related:

Luke 10:¹⁹ Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Now, to be straight up... the reason I've started this is because those who don't accept the Mark 16:18 scripture as part of the Canon can also clearly see the MEANING of the Mark 16:18 scripture is covered by other scriptures in the Bible. So, even if the Mark 16:18 scriptures never existed, the meaning is still valid.

[ewq1938]

Mark 16:¹⁸ they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

I was hoping that we can have a discussion concerning the "taking up serpents" portion of this scripture and discuss this.

Does the portion concerning the taking up snakes have ONLY a "physical" meaning or can this be of or also include a "spiritual" meaning as well?

I ask because of such scriptures such as this:

Physically related:

Acts 28:3 But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand. ⁴ So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live.” ⁵ But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm.

Spiritually related:

Luke 10:¹⁹ Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Now, to be straight up... the reason I've started this is because those who don't accept the Mark 16:18 scripture as part of the Canon can also clearly see the MEANING of the Mark 16:18 scripture is covered by other scriptures in the Bible. So, even if the Mark 16:18 scriptures never existed, the meaning is still valid.

Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.


While it's true angels can "bear thee up" the issue here is intentional tempting of God in the form of intentionally jumping off a cliff to force him to send angels to rescue you. That's not God's job, to rescue a fool from his intentional folly, or death wish. Same for serpents and poison. Paul didn't go find a serpent and tease it until it bit him nor did he drink poison to show how invincible he was. If God means to protect one from a deadly bite, etc...then you will be protected but don't push it.

[Boo]

16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

17And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

18they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

19So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

20And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.

One of the first rules of bible interpretation is that we take literally those things which are stated unless it is obvious that some other method of teaching is being used.

Verse 16 is literal - no allegory or parable in it.

Verse 17 is literal - no symbolism at all.

Verse 18 is literal - same thing.

Verse 19 - is that not literal as well? I see no reason not to take it that way.

Verse 20 - literal. This phrase is saying that those who believe can cast out demons, speak in tongues, pick up serpents, drink poison, and lay hands on the sick who will recover.

All of that being literal as I see it, I must wonder why I do not read about those eleven playing with snakes and drinking poison but I do about casting out demons and speaking in tongues. They are all just as literal in these verses. The account of one accidental biting shows an incident which was not being used as a confirming sign. These, according to these verses, were given to be signs, but the evidence in scripture does not support this. Also, nowhere else in the Gospels are tongues, bitings by serpents as signs and poison drinking mentioned - yet here they pop up in Mark which closed out prior to Pentecost and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

When we think about it, ewq1938 makes a valid point. We are taught not to temp God, yet the ending of Mark in those verses claims that we can tempt God to prove our authority as messengers of God. It would seem that the instructions to not tempt God are being changed. Verses 17 and 18 conflict with others.

If the ending of Mark in the King James transation is our favorite justification for a belief, we need to search for a more valid one. These are not words breathed out of the mouth of God.

[awestruckchild]

We cannot take ANY of the words "just literally."
They are spirit because GOD is Spirit.
Anytime we take the word just literally, we are having eyes that don't see and ears that don't hear.
The words I give you, they are Spirit and truth.

[divaD]

We cannot take ANY of the words "just literally."
They are spirit because GOD is Spirit.
Anytime we take the word just literally, we are having eyes that don't see and ears that don't hear.
The words I give you, they are Spirit and truth.

But I think the point is this...


Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover

In my name shall they cast out devils. If that is literal...

They shall speak with new tongues. If that is literal...

they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. If that is literal...


Then it's not only unreasonable, but it is also inconsistent if the following is not literal.

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;


It would be understood like such.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they LITERALLY cast out devils; they shall LITERALLY speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up NON LITERAL serpents; and if they drink any NON LITERAL deadly thing, it shall not LITERALLY hurt them; they LITERALLY shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall LITERALLY recover

That is one messed up way to interpret Scriptures IMO. BTW, not how I would interpret it myself. Just trying to illustrate a point.

[Scooby_Snacks]

Looking at the taking up of serpents, and the drinking of poison, in the spiritual sense made me think of deceptions.

I have more thoughts about this, but not really sure how to put it into words?

[divaD]

Physically related:

Acts 28:3 But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand. ⁴ So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live.” ⁵ But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm.

Spiritually related:

Luke 10:¹⁹ Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

This is very good. Now all you have to do is find both a literal and spiritual example for the following...In my name shall they cast out devils....They shall speak with new tongues.....they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

You probably won't have any problems finding literal examples. But can you also find spiritual examples, like you did with Luke 10:19?

[Slug1]

Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.


While it's true angels can "bear thee up" the issue here is intentional tempting of God in the form of intentionally jumping off a cliff to force him to send angels to rescue you. That's not God's job, to rescue a fool from his intentional folly, or death wish. Same for serpents and poison. Paul didn't go find a serpent and tease it until it bit him nor did he drink poison to show how invincible he was. If God means to protect one from a deadly bite, etc...then you will be protected but don't push it.

I agree. Here are some comments in a very recent thread that is actually the reason why I started this thread, the the other was not derailed:

First I will show you the context of this scripture (divided with scripture from Acts 28) and then I will challenge you with another question. First the context and the point that context makes: The context of this scripture and all elements of the context of this scripture concerns the spreading of the Gospel of Christ. When a person is LED by the Holy Spirit to spread the Gospel of Christ, the context of this scripture also reveals to us what work the Holy Spirit DOES as well. One of these is about the PROTECTION of those who are spreading the Gospel of Christ.

I said a lot more in that other thread but now I don't want to derail this one

[Slug1]

All of that being literal as I see it, I must wonder why I do not read about those eleven playing with snakes and drinking poison but I do about casting out demons and speaking in tongues.

Is the picking up of snakes and doing shots of poison a means to witness? I would say NO due to examples throughout the scriptures.

Is the healing of, casting out of demons, and speaking in tongues a means to witness? I would say YES due to examples throughout the scriptures.


So what does this mean... for us?

We are taught not to temp God, yet the ending of Mark in those verses claims that we can tempt God to prove our authority as messengers of God. It would seem that the instructions to not tempt God are being changed. Verses 17 and 18 conflict with others.

That scripture isn't claiming we can tempt God to prove our authority as messengers of God. Through ERROR or misunderstanding, it does seem that people ARE though.

When we think about it, ewq1938 makes a valid point.

So was it just as valid a point when I made the same point in that other thread? Let me go back and look

These are not words breathed out of the mouth of God.

Which is the reason I included those other scriptures that we are to discuss if the meaning is the same. If it was to be determined that the Mark 16 scriptures ARE completely man and not God... are the others as well?

Which raises this specific question... IF the Mark 16 scriptures are fake, are the scriptures concerning Paul surviving that snake bite in Acts 28, also fake?

[Slug1]

In my name shall they cast out devils. If that is literal...

They shall speak with new tongues. If that is literal...

they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. If that is literal...


Then it's not only unreasonable, but it is also inconsistent if the following is not literal.

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;

That is one messed up way to interpret Scriptures IMO. BTW, not how I would interpret it myself. Just trying to illustrate a point.

Well... when we go through scriptures, what examples do we have?

Casting out demons... offensively in context of the scriptures.

Speaking in tongues... done purposely in the context of the scriptures.

Laying hands on... offensively in context of the scriptures.

Taking up serpents... defensively in context of the scriptures.

Drinking poison... in the context with taking up serpents, defensive in nature.

So... in the case with serpents/poison, if a person was to do this in an offensive means, or a purposeful means... does this mean tempting God is being attempted? Thus the reason, they die?

[Slug1]

Looking at the taking up of serpents, and the drinking of poison, in the spiritual sense made me think of deceptions.

I have more thoughts about this, but not really sure how to put it into words?

I raised this very thought in a past thread awhile back. I can't think of which thread though. It'll be interesting when you can put your thoughts into words.

[Slug1]

This is very good. Now all you have to do is find both a literal and spiritual example for the following...In my name shall they cast out devils....They shall speak with new tongues.....they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Does this leg work have to be done... the NT is FULL of all the examples anyone will ever need. Unless I'm misunderstanding this part of your reply.

You probably won't have any problems finding literal examples. But can you also find spiritual examples, like you did with Luke 10:19?

Spiritual examples of casting out demons, healing, and speaking in tongues? All of this is spiritual in nature and cannot be accomplished by man. If done ONLY by man, it's what is called... fake.

Only through God can any of this happen so it's ALL spiritual.

[Boo]

We cannot take ANY of the words "just literally."
They are spirit because GOD is Spirit.
Anytime we take the word just literally, we are having eyes that don't see and ears that don't hear.
The words I give you, they are Spirit and truth.

I think it would do you well to take a course in hermeneutics. Believe it or not, God didn't give his teachings as a great mystery to be interpreted solely by those with gifted powers of interpretation. They are given to us to read and understand. It is only when we start believing that there is no way that we can understand those words that we rely on others who will then be able to lead us astray.

Beware of those who would hide the truth of God by making your think that God did not have the ability to give you his teachings in plain and simple words. Not every lesson is a mystery.

[Slug1]

I think it would do you well to take a course in hermeneutics. Believe it or not, God didn't give his teachings as a great mystery to be interpreted solely by those with gifted powers of interpretation. They are given to us to read and understand. It is only when we start believing that there is no way that we can understand those words that we rely on others who will then be able to lead us astray.

Beware of those who would hide the truth of God by making your think that God did not have the ability to give you his teachings in plain and simple words. Not every lesson is a mystery.

I agree... specifically the message of the Gospel. It's target is the lost who have NO Holy Spirit. So this is why the Holy Spirit is needed to draw them TO the words (Logos of the Bible) used and the message of the Gospel. It's AFTER a person accepts Christ that the Holy Spirit begins the "changing" process inside a person and this involves the "Rhema of the Bible" where revelation and enlightenment or illumination of meaning of the scriptures can begin to happen. This is usually when the Holy Spirit helps the understanding of the spiritual meaning and also when He uses scripture to allow a person to see inside themselves when the Holy Spirit points out to them what is in need of change.

Now with that said, in the case and discussion topic for this thread (as I'm sure Awestruck is referring too)... is there both a physical (logos) and spiritual (rhema) meaning to the word "serpents" that we find used in scriptures?

[Scooby_Snacks]

Well Slug,

The Pharisees were called a "brood of Vipers" so in that context, perhaps one walking in the Spirit can "handle" every argument or "stronghold" of deception that attempts to stand against Gods Truth. The Law cannot kill someone who trusts in Christs death and resurrection. He took away the "sting" (poison) of death?