Taking up serpents

[Boo]

Then I think you should continue on as you do. Seek the literal meaning as you have been doing. Those rules that other men have taught work for you and you are content with them.

I don't think I made myself very clear to you. Those "rules" for interpretation don't exclude taking the spiritual message out of scripture. However, those rules are meant to keep us from assigning meaning to scripture that is not there. There are spiritual lessons to be learned from each story, but the story is literal and true unless it is obviously a parable. Parables have only spiritual lessons to be learned. When we get so busy trying to assign other meaning to a scripture, we can miss the obvious literal point.

Please don't think that I miss the spiritual side of scripture - I just make sure that I accept the literal side as well. If I don't do that, some wordsmith with an agenda can lead me into a false understanding of God's message to us.

[Slug1]

It either is literal or it is not.

If this is where you will stand, then based on the example with Paul being bitten by that viper, you have to stand only on the fact that it is only physical and not spiritual.

So this is your final discernment of the Mark 16 scripture?

Don't forget, this is a discussion and to explain your stance, edifies the discussion.

We've raised other scriptures to divide with the Mark 16 scriptures and this at least shows where and why the spiritual meaning of Mark 16 can also be understood.

Unless these scriptures are addressed, discussion cannot truly continue.

[awestruckchild]

I see the story as being the story of the power displayed by one who God puts against the giants. It is a true story and the point of God's power is well taken. That is the literal story and the lesson learned.

As for the rest, you can associate what you want with other words. The ending of Mark 16 cannot be a mix of literal and allegory just because someone wants it to be. It either is literal or it is not.

It ISN'T a mix of literal and allegory.
The words are spirit. ALL of the words are spirit because GOD is Spirit.
God's Word, every Word that has proceeded from Him, is eternal.
Our flesh is NOT eternal.
God's Word does not die with us and become of no use.
It would become of no use if it was only temporary and only had use for our literal human ears.
Whoever has ears to hear, listen to what the Spirit says.

[awestruckchild]

I don't think I made myself very clear to you. Those "rules" for interpretation don't exclude taking the spiritual message out of scripture. However, those rules are meant to keep us from assigning meaning to scripture that is not there. There are spiritual lessons to be learned from each story, but the story is literal and true unless it is obviously a parable. Parables have only spiritual lessons to be learned. When we get so busy trying to assign other meaning to a scripture, we can miss the obvious literal point.

Please don't think that I miss the spiritual side of scripture - I just make sure that I accept the literal side as well. If I don't do that, some wordsmith with an agenda can lead me into a false understanding of God's message to us.

ALL of the words are Spirit. We don't see this with all of them. We see whatever the Spirit shows us.
We are stuck here in this dull flesh that fights the Spirit.
We go in and out of truly seeing.
One moment we only see humanly.
The next moment, He SHOWS us!!!
We were never saying the words were not literal too.
There are some who say that Jesus never literally hung on a cross for me.
He DID!
There are some who say He never gave a man born physically blind his human sight.
He DID!
But the Words are Spirit as well.
And it is the SPIRIT that avails a man - not the flesh.
I have no problem understanding the words literally.
A man received his sight.
So if I have no problem with the literal understanding, why argue about it. It is apparent.
It is the spirit of the words that I am sluggish with because my flesh wars against the Spirit.
It is like those pictures that look like one thing if you look at the black ink on the page. But if you peer at it long enough, you see the light places and another picture emerges. It depends on whether you look at the dark as being imposed on the light page, or you look at the light as being imposed on the dark background.
And even after you SEE the other picture, your mind and your eyes lose it again, and you have to peer at it again until you see it once more.

[Boo]

ALL of the words are Spirit. We don't see this with all of them. We see whatever the Spirit shows us.
We are stuck here in this dull flesh that fights the Spirit.
We go in and out of truly seeing.
One moment we only see humanly.
The next moment, He SHOWS us!!!
We were never saying the words were not literal too.
There are some who say that Jesus never literally hung on a cross for me.
He DID!
There are some who say He never gave a man born physically blind his human sight.
He DID!
But the Words are Spirit as well.
And it is the SPIRIT that avails a man - not the flesh.
I have no problem understanding the words literally.
A man received his sight.
So if I have no problem with the literal understanding, why argue about it. It is apparent.
It is the spirit of the words that I am sluggish with because my flesh wars against the Spirit.
It is like those pictures that look like one thing if you look at the black ink on the page. But if you peer at it long enough, you see the light places and another picture emerges. It depends on whether you look at the dark as being imposed on the light page, or you look at the light as being imposed on the dark background.
And even after you SEE the other picture, your mind and your eyes lose it again, and you have to peer at it again until you see it once more.

Since you said:

We cannot take ANY of the words "just literally."
They are spirit because GOD is Spirit.
Anytime we take the word just literally, we are having eyes that don't see and ears that don't hear.
The words I give you, they are Spirit and truth.

Followed by eveything else you posted, I need to ask you if you believe that those verses are to be taken literally AS WELL AS spiritually?

Can a person who speaks in tongues, lay hands on and heal the sick also pick up serpents and drink poison and not be harmed? That is what the verses say, so I have to believe it is true. THEN you search for the spiritual meaning, right?

[Boo]

If this is where you will stand, then based on the example with Paul being bitten by that viper, you have to stand only on the fact that it is only physical and not spiritual.

So this is your final discernment of the Mark 16 scripture?

Don't forget, this is a discussion and to explain your stance, edifies the discussion.

We've raised other scriptures to divide with the Mark 16 scriptures and this at least shows where and why the spiritual meaning of Mark 16 can also be understood.

Unless these scriptures are addressed, discussion cannot truly continue.

My brother, it cannot continue because you will not admit to the verses being taken literally. You want to take only the first couple items literally and the rest as allegory. That is not the way it works, though there are those who do just that with scriptures all the time. They do a great job of making one verse say one thing, but the other verses say something else.

I really don't much care of you can find a scripture that would SEEM to substantiate a statement in Mark 16, the fact remains that the long ending of Mark 16 is not in the older manuscripts. It was put there by someone other than the writer of the book of Mark, so it has been ADDED to scripture. That means that it is not from God. That means that it should be disregarded and no faith put into it.

If you can support your doctrine with other scriptures, then support it with other scriptures. If your doctrine came from Mark 16 after verse 8, your doctrine is not from God.

I've already told you that those verses are to be taken literally. If you want to prescribe spiritual relationships to them, that is your choice. First and foremost, however, is that they are literal. There is zero indication that they are meant only to be spiritualized. Since that is the case, then Mark 16 tells us to do what Jesus told Satan what he would not do - tempt God.

[Slug1]

My brother, it cannot continue because you will not admit to the verses being taken literally. You want to take only the first couple items literally and the rest as allegory. That is not the way it works, though there are those who do just that with scriptures all the time. They do a great job of making one verse say one thing, but the other verses say something else.

No... I take them as both. For all I know, in the countries I've been and happened to be glorifying God doing what I'm led to do... who knows if the indignant food I ate was poisoned. It's not like the example in the Bible is Paul was purposely seeking for that viper to bite him, he had no clue he was about to be bit. Seems that drinking poison would be the same.

Now am I saying this happened, NOPE. Based on all the meals I ate and no surprised reactions, I am sure there was never any poison. It's not however about pouring poison in a shot glass and saying, "look at me". It's more, something happens unplanned by the victim, God protects the person and this GETS peoples attention so they are open to the Gospel.

I really don't much care of you can find a scripture that would SEEM to substantiate a statement in Mark 16, the fact remains that the long ending of Mark 16 is not in the older manuscripts. It was put there by someone other than the writer of the book of Mark, so it has been ADDED to scripture. That means that it is not from God. That means that it should be disregarded and no faith put into it.

The Book of Enoch is also voted by man, not to be a part of the Canon. Yet, parts of the Book of Enoch is quoted in the Canon... does this make any sense to you?

Now, I'm not asking this to counter your question, I'm asking this to show you something. There are OTHER scriptures in the Bible that MEAN the exact same thing that the Mark 16 scriptures mean. So even IF the Mark 16 scriptures were man made, the MEANING isn't man made.

If you can support your doctrine with other scriptures, then support it with other scriptures. If your doctrine came from Mark 16 after verse 8, your doctrine is not from God.

This thread is full of them...

I've already told you that those verses are to be taken literally. If you want to prescribe spiritual relationships to them, that is your choice.

This is a discussion, I'm not applying anything. The scriptures apply themselves and this discussion is to discuss those applications. Or in some cases... "discover" more scriptures and learn what THEY apply in relation to all the others. Divide scriptures with scriptures.

This is the process of learning God's (doctrine) truth and destroying man's (doctrinal) truth.

First and foremost, however, is that they are literal. There is zero indication that they are meant only to be spiritualized. Since that is the case, then Mark 16 tells us to do what Jesus told Satan what he would not do - tempt God.

Hooah... you've made an official statement.

So here is where discussion can begin... with the provision of all the other scriptures about serpents, do these also only have a "physical" meaning?

[awestruckchild]

Since you said:


Followed by eveything else you posted, I need to ask you if you believe that those verses are to be taken literally AS WELL AS spiritually?

Can a person who speaks in tongues, lay hands on and heal the sick also pick up serpents and drink poison and not be harmed? That is what the verses say, so I have to believe it is true. THEN you search for the spiritual meaning, right?

I'm not sure what you're asking here Boo.
It just seems too strange to me.
You are saying a verse is not scripture and then using that verse that you think is not scripture to.....try to get me to see that there is a danger in the spirit of the words and so...well, I'm just confused as to the question I guess.
You want me to say that first and foremost, the literal meaning of the words is of utmost importance?
And that the spirit of the words falls into a secondary importance?
And that the reason why is because some of the bible isn't scripture?
(By the way, I also believe some of the words in my bible aren't scripture. Like where Paul says he is giving his opinion.) But I am certainly not going to say that because of this belief of mine, I must put the spirit of the words in a secondary position to how I see them humanly.
I can't do this. It is the spirit that avails a man. The flesh avails nothing. So, this applies to God's words also.
Don't murder - to "keep" it avails me little if I am murdering someone in my heart, murdering them in spirit. Because to God, it doesn't matter if I "keep" the commandment humanly when I have murdered in spirit. A murderer is a murderer. I can't say the literal meaning is more important than the spiritual meaning, because that would be nonsense to God. And to me. Why should it matter if I don't literally murder someone if in God's eyes I HAVE murdered them. So He walks with me to the INSIDE of my cup and addresses the problem WHERE it begins. What does it matter if every man on earth tells me I have "kept" that commandment when God says I have not? Do I care what men think over what God thinks? This would be putting the flesh in importance over the spirit when the flesh avails me nothing, but the spirit avails me.

[Scooby_Snacks]

Slug1 said:

So here is where discussion can begin... with the provision of all the other scriptures about serpents, do these also only have a "physical" meaning?

I did mention that the Luke 10 scripture reference indicates that the trampling on of serpents and scorpions MUST have a spiritual meaning as the rest of the scripture indicates a spiritual meaning. Both serpents and scorpions can be poisonous. God is stating that the poison that spiritual deceptions carry will be walked all over by the power given to us by Him, which is also spiritual, not physical.
The "power of the enemy" is a spiritual power for this reason:

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
(Ephesians 6:12 ESV)

Any person can put on a pair of combat boots and smoosh scorpions in the physical. This scripture is not about physically destroying snakes and scorpions.
This about God giving to us, the ability through His Spirit, through His Word and by His Authority to tread on the enemies spiritual power.

The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”
(Luke 10:17-20 ESV)

What I do appreciate about Luke chapter 10 is how it moves from the 72 being sent out, to their return and amazement of Christ's power upon them, the indication of humility that allows His Power to present in them, the stance of what is more important than having this authority over demonic power, Loving Him and others as oneself confirmed by the Story of the Good Samaritan, and finally works of service to God by knowing and submitting oneself to Him first, the story of Mary and Martha.

Going back to Acts 28, I find the most curious thing.
Paul is not shown to preach the Gospel to the poeple of Malta, but to do many healing miracles. He spent three months there during wintery cold season. Is it possible that a superstitious stronghold was over them that would take up to 3 months to break through?
They called Paul a god after he did not die from the serpent. There was a stronghold of polytheism/god/goddess worship.
These teachings/deceptions would not (harm) him, and in fact he would throw them into the fire. Like dead works. (Sticks)

Anyways...gettin carried away here.

[awestruckchild]

Slug1 said:



I did mention that the Luke 10 scripture reference indicates that the trampling on of serpents and scorpions MUST have a spiritual meaning as the rest of the scripture indicates a spiritual meaning. Both serpents and scorpions can be poisonous. God is stating that the poison that spiritual deceptions carry will be walked all over by the power given to us by Him, which is also spiritual, not physical.
The "power of the enemy" is a spiritual power for this reason:

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
(Ephesians 6:12 ESV)

Any person can put on a pair of combat boots and smoosh scorpions in the physical. This scripture is not about physically destroying snakes and scorpions.
This about God giving to us, the ability through His Spirit, through His Word and by His Authority to tread on the enemies spiritual power.

The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”
(Luke 10:17-20 ESV)

What I do appreciate about Luke chapter 10 is how it moves from the 72 being sent out, to their return and amazement of Christ's power upon them, the indication of humility that allows His Power to present in them, the stance of what is more important than having this authority over demonic power, Loving Him and others as oneself confirmed by the Story of the Good Samaritan, and finally works of service to God by knowing and submitting oneself to Him first, the story of Mary and Martha.

Going back to Acts 28, I find the most curious thing.
Paul is not shown to preach the Gospel to the poeple of Malta, but to do many healing miracles. He spent three months there during wintery cold season. Is it possible that a superstitious stronghold was over them that would take up to 3 months to break through?
They called Paul a god after he did not die from the serpent. There was a stronghold of polytheism/god/goddess worship.
These teachings/deceptions would not (harm) him, and in fact he would throw them into the fire. Like dead works. (Sticks)

Anyways...gettin carried away here.

Um...wow...I wish you would get carried away more often then!
This is very good Scoob.

[Slug1]

Anyways...gettin carried away here.

No, what you are being led to write isn't about being carried away... it's all about the Rhema of the Word of God as the Holy Spirit illuminates (reveals).

Don't quench the Spirit... keep listening and learning what the Holy Spirit shows you so others can also learn.

Much of what you just wrote is in sequence of what the Word of God reveals concerning the building up of the Body of Christ to "move" in the Spirit. As a Body of Christ, "WE" must be able to operate supernaturally because our adversary operates supernaturally against us. If "we" as a Body of Christ could not operated both in the natural and the supernatural... we will have NO chance to trample on whatever "serpent", satan tosses at us.

Our battle is NOT carnal... so if a Christian cannot battle in the supernatural, they can't BATTLE... AT ALL!

This is why when an attack may be used by satan, God defensively protects us, we may not even be aware of the protection. When satan uses a supernatural means to attack us or others, God OFFENSIVELY empowers us to trample the attack either to ourselves or others.

This is WHY... it takes the Holy Spirit to help us understand the supernatural which is the SPIRITUAL meaning of the scriptures!! Once any given Christian has submitted to the Holy Spirit's teaching... then they are in a "POSITION" to also OPERATE and WALK in the Spirit... SPIRITUALLY!

satan does all he can to prevent this from happening because when Christians "position" themselves to NOT operate in the Spirit and battle supernaturally, he is free to wage war on a Body that has positionED themselves... to BE powerless.

[awestruckchild]

HOOOAH!!!!!!
This is a very important thread for us.
We need to get it together.
As soon as possible.

[awestruckchild]

In some odd way, I see us all moving in a certain direction.
A direction of laying down a lot.
Of seeing that it doesn't matter if it isn't of love and if it it isn't the direction the Spirit is moving.
I see a bit of "Tony's Lament" in all of us recently. (Though I would call it a psalm!!)
If we move where He is moving, a lot will fall away as unimportant that we have concerned ourselves with.
And there will be unity because we will all walk in the same direction...
I have seen some verses in a new light suddenly.
And the people all spoke the same language.
And God said: Now NOTHING they purpose to do will be impossible for them!

[Scooby_Snacks]

Slug1 said:

Much of what you just wrote is in sequence of what the Word of God reveals concerning the building up of the Body of Christ to "move" in the Spirit. As a Body of Christ, "WE" must be able to operate supernaturally because our adversary operates supernaturally against us. If "we" as a Body of Christ could not operated both in the natural and the supernatural... we will have NO chance to trample on whatever "serpent", satan tosses at us.

Yes...some things that really came to mind this morning, had to do with relationship.
Relationship with The Lord and then with others in Him.

I also read Acts 11, and found Gods audible Words here quite wonderful.
The meaning in the chapter could have been anything. To me, His Words seemed for us, a way to remember to treat one another as such---

But the voice answered a second time from heaven, ‘What God has made clean, do not call common.’(Acts 11:9 ESV)

I read this as well, just dont feel like posting the whole thing or discussing it right now.
.
2 Corinthians 4

[Slug1]

I read this as well, just dont feel like posting the whole thing or discussing it right now.
.
2 Corinthians 4

I was once struggling with all that was going on in my life, a while back. Probably going on 2 years ago now? Anyway... I was asking God something along the lines of "WHY" the heartache? Why this "work" when I don't "see" any fruit produced from such effort, why the resistance from so many??? I was in a very frustrated frame of mindset.

That week I received a call from a friend who lives several states away from me and he says, "KEN... I was praying and God has given me a word to give to you!". I said, "okaaaayyyyy"

This is what the word from God was... "It's for eternity." So... after I was able to stop crying, we talked a little more and then after I hung up, I went to the back room to get right back into Gods presence and thank Him.

So, yeah... read that 2 Cor 4 and the meaning of how that chapter ends, is exactly what God was relaying to me in a VERY personal manner.

So, Yeah... I will offer confirmation to you in this sense, it IS about relationship with God and we ARE all in this together with our brothers and sister's in Christ.

I was praying and seeking, and a man of God (my friend) was listening and in obedience, spoke to me what God told him to say. My prayers were OBVIOUSLY heard and thus answered within the week, in a VERY profound way.