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Thread: Christian murderers

  1. #46
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    Re: Christian murderers

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling View Post
    I guess, yeah, I probably wasn't really responding to what you said, but just what I thought you were saying based on past dealings. Perhaps your belief in God really did do something unique for you, I dont have a clue what that could be outside of the sorts of things I described, but hey its only my best guess at whats happening. I dont really believe that I have everything sorted out, but then i dont really believe that you believe that i do either, anyway thanks for taking the time to respond.
    Thank you too. I wasn't being sarcastic when I said you'd got everything sorted, just that even if you haven't you know that you can find your own answers without the need for God, I couldn't.
    I can't explain to you what difference God has made in my life, you would just think it was a load of old twaddle.

    But if you are right and there is no God, no reason for our existence, nothing more after this life then all I've lost is a few happy months out of my life in prayer.
    If I'm right then you're s......
    Nice talkin' with you.

  2. #47
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    Re: Christian murderers

    Quote Originally Posted by claybevan View Post
    But if you are right and there is no God, no reason for our existence, nothing more after this life then all I've lost is a few happy months out of my life in prayer.
    If I'm right then you're s......
    Christianity: mixing it up with Allianz, Axa and AIG...

  3. #48
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    Re: Christian murderers

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling View Post
    Well, I can't say that I agree that hiding one's hatred and anger towards another is worse than literally ripping off a face, I mean it can be in some special cases, but I cant agree that in principle being angry and doing something about it are the same thing, they are related, but not equivalent.

    anyway onto the contradiction, I mean yeah I get that humans are at the root of the contradiction, but it only means anything in regards to humans. That is to say , yes, of course it makes perfect sense that you can distinguish a person that generally believes what they profess by evaluating their actions...there is some range where we can reasonably determine that the sentiment is genuine with imperfect execution or the execution is is at odds because the sentiment is not genuine....however my problem with this is that there isn't anything especially Christian, or spiritual about this concept. You can know a fan of baseball or jazz in this same way, it seems to me that its the way people evaluate behavior vs declaration....but there are people who seem to want to elevate this, or maybe reduce it to a sort of binary if-then christian test. idk, i have a cold...a summer cold ...so a fever with 90 degree weather and no AC..,.,maybe this is jibberish
    Yes. It does not make sense to us that to God, being angry and doing something about it are the same thing! He just addresses where the problem originates. It ties in to the verse about how if the inside of the cup is clean, the outside just will be as well.

    As for your second paragraph, it is God who gives the if-then test for determining His followers.
    You will know them by their fruits.
    Love, patience, kindness, etc.
    But the thing is, it is not a complete and total transformation.
    It is a constant following once we have figured out what His voice is.
    Any given day, it is possible for me to fail to listen and follow that voice in obedience just as any given day, a son may defy his earthly father and refuse to obey him.
    But that does not reflect poorly on God. It only reflects poorly on ME.
    It might not seem particularly spiritual to you because you see the wisdom in this way of evaluating the truthfulness of people and you have NOT met God, but perhaps what you think doesn't require God is really a faint leftover spark of the Divine in the way He made man....
    Please stop OD'ing on oreos while you are sick, OscarKipling.
    Try to eat some fruit and protein - nuts maybe.
    Can't you get a window unit so that you can at least have one room that is airconditioned when you need it?
    Stop with the oreos - they are making you grumpy.

    What have you been reading lately? I seem to remember you saying you were going to read some book....
    "knowledge makes arrogant but love edifies"

  4. #49

    Re: Christian murderers

    Quote Originally Posted by awestruckchild View Post
    Yes. It does not make sense to us that to God, being angry and doing something about it are the same thing! He just addresses where the problem originates. It ties in to the verse about how if the inside of the cup is clean, the outside just will be as well.
    right, but i mean, that's supposed to be a lesson, to show us where anger can lead, but God would have to know that they aren't literally the same thing otherwise...well otherwise a bunch of stuff I dont feel like typing right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by awestruckchild View Post
    As for your second paragraph, it is God who gives the if-then test for determining His followers.
    You will know them by their fruits.
    Love, patience, kindness, etc.
    But the thing is, it is not a complete and total transformation.
    It is a constant following once we have figured out what His voice is.
    Any given day, it is possible for me to fail to listen and follow that voice in obedience just as any given day, a son may defy his earthly father and refuse to obey him.
    But that does not reflect poorly on God. It only reflects poorly on ME.
    I dont think would God lack the nuance or the knowledge to use more refined methods of judgement...I dont think that God as human parent analogue works at all, we people have many limitations that God doesn't...but I'm not really sure what i'm arguing anymore. I dont think i brought this thread up to talk about how anything reflects on God, but that people could still be christians and murderers, or rapists or face eaters , whathaveyou...maybe i'm just railing against christian exceptionalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by awestruckchild View Post
    It might not seem particularly spiritual to you because you see the wisdom in this way of evaluating the truthfulness of people and you have NOT met God, but perhaps what you think doesn't require God is really a faint leftover spark of the Divine in the way He made man....
    sure it could be a wide variety of things, but there is a family of very reasonable propositions that provide adequate explanation without postulating sparks...in my opinion that is...just its always my opinion, i'm going to stop saying that because really its implicit that this is my opinion right. just trying to shave some seconds off, get lean and efficient.


    Quote Originally Posted by awestruckchild View Post
    Please stop OD'ing on oreos while you are sick, OscarKipling.
    Try to eat some fruit and protein - nuts maybe.
    Can't you get a window unit so that you can at least have one room that is airconditioned when you need it?
    Stop with the oreos - they are making you grumpy.
    I know, I have been really grumpy and trifling, really what did I expect from this thread, or any thread...ha, I'm even bored with my thoughts on this stuff.


    Quote Originally Posted by awestruckchild View Post
    What have you been reading lately? I seem to remember you saying you were going to read some book....
    yeah i read the newT, except revelations, which is lets be honest...unreadable. but that was a while ago, right now i've been reading a series of papers on graphene and pva electrolytes...because everyone has a camera in thier phones, but i think they should also have a tesla coil, a rail gun, and pumped phase conjugate mirrors.
    " Fellas, this visit's top secret, so no one is to know about it except the senior officers, scientists, and one conspiracy nut no one will believe. " -Probably Barack Obama

  5. #50
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    Re: Christian murderers

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling View Post
    right, but i mean, that's supposed to be a lesson, to show us where anger can lead, but God would have to know that they aren't literally the same thing otherwise...well otherwise a bunch of stuff I dont feel like typing right now.



    I dont think would God lack the nuance or the knowledge to use more refined methods of judgement...I dont think that God as human parent analogue works at all, we people have many limitations that God doesn't...but I'm not really sure what i'm arguing anymore. I dont think i brought this thread up to talk about how anything reflects on God, but that people could still be christians and murderers, or rapists or face eaters , whathaveyou...maybe i'm just railing against christian exceptionalism.



    sure it could be a wide variety of things, but there is a family of very reasonable propositions that provide adequate explanation without postulating sparks...in my opinion that is...just its always my opinion, i'm going to stop saying that because really its implicit that this is my opinion right. just trying to shave some seconds off, get lean and efficient.




    I know, I have been really grumpy and trifling, really what did I expect from this thread, or any thread...ha, I'm even bored with my thoughts on this stuff.




    yeah i read the newT, except revelations, which is lets be honest...unreadable. but that was a while ago, right now i've been reading a series of papers on graphene and pva electrolytes...because everyone has a camera in thier phones, but i think they should also have a tesla coil, a rail gun, and pumped phase conjugate mirrors.
    I am laughing. I probably should not be, but it strikes me funny that you think God's way of calling sin a sin at it's origin - the moment it pokes it's head up - is unrefined.
    To my eyes, it is sheer wisdom, but it didn't used to be.
    You give your opinion as to what you think God would do and how He would judge.
    I catch these glimpses in your writing occasionally that give me the impression that you really do think God exists in some fashion. You give yourself away sort of.

    I did not mean we were to think of God as a human parent.
    I meant to show that He made everything, He wrote the story, and so the story just gets retold over and over again in His creation simply because a creation has some of the soul or spirit or what have you, IN it, of the man who did the creating. We pour OURSELVES into our creations. It stands to reason, that by looking upon a mans art, we get some sense of his own soul. We can FEEL after that man and sometimes, haply, grasp a part of him and what his soul felt...we can make a connection with him by viewing his art/creation.

    So the AUTHOR, writes the story.
    His "characters" can't come up with anything original.
    They are just the AUTHORS creation.
    When they write a love story, why can this not be done without a sacrifice of some sort?
    Why can't someone write an original love story without a sacrifice?
    Because the Author didn't write love to be so.
    You may write a story, but if there is no sacrifice, it definitely won't be a LOVE story.
    Or why can't they come up with a suspense/adventure story that does not have the element of good vs. evil?
    Because that isn't our story!
    And more importantly, why do we never tire of the same story over and over again??
    The same bones are there always, and the characters and their situations change around a bit, so what keeps us from tiring of them?

    So by watching a father and son, we catch glimpses of the original story. No earthly father is perfect, so it isn't the case that we see the creator accurately displayed. We see a skewed and imperfect picture, with foibles and shattered pieces stuck together.

    Yes, I know you read the NT a good while ago.
    You said that you thought you might look at it again in order to get the accurate story instead of always asking people other than the author what the author meant and intended. To maybe see where the retellers of the story could be getting it wrong....kind of like....when you see two people arguing over what Thomas Jefferson thought, felt, and meant. You know they can't both be right because they are saying opposite things. So you go to the source yourself to find out which of them is telling the truth.
    You don't jump in on the argument because you really don't know which is correct until you have Jefferson talk to you in his writings.

    Once again, my motive for wanting you to read it is selfish, as I told you before.
    I want to see what a very capable mind does with the writing.
    I want to hear what you make of some of the apparent contradictions IN the writing.
    But also, I want you to stop having discussions and debates with people about a book you have not read recently enough to be able to call them on it when they have a part wrong. It is painful to watch someone so capable of mind come unprepared to the table. When they get it wrong, and I see they have got it wrong, I want to see what happens when you are able to call them on their inconsistency regarding the Man they claim to follow, based on what that man said himself, in his own words.
    But mostly, I want your mind applied to some of the riddles/parables/seeming inconsistencies.
    I want to use your mind.
    Selfish, I know.
    "knowledge makes arrogant but love edifies"

  6. #51
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    Re: Christian murderers

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling View Post
    I know, I have been really grumpy and trifling, really what did I expect from this thread, or any thread...ha, I'm even bored with my thoughts on this stuff.
    It wasn't the greatest question. You either reveal prejudice or illiteracy, or you come to a straight answer which won't lead into another, or you end up with an attempt to go deeper and you lose sight. There weren't even any Luther's to declare David and Jew. What did you expect?

  7. #52

    Re: Christian murderers

    Quote Originally Posted by awestruckchild View Post
    I am laughing. I probably should not be, but it strikes me funny that you think God's way of calling sin a sin at it's origin - the moment it pokes it's head up - is unrefined.
    To my eyes, it is sheer wisdom, but it didn't used to be.
    You give your opinion as to what you think God would do and how He would judge.
    I catch these glimpses in your writing occasionally that give me the impression that you really do think God exists in some fashion. You give yourself away sort of.

    I did not mean we were to think of God as a human parent.
    I meant to show that He made everything, He wrote the story, and so the story just gets retold over and over again in His creation simply because a creation has some of the soul or spirit or what have you, IN it, of the man who did the creating. We pour OURSELVES into our creations. It stands to reason, that by looking upon a mans art, we get some sense of his own soul. We can FEEL after that man and sometimes, haply, grasp a part of him and what his soul felt...we can make a connection with him by viewing his art/creation.

    So the AUTHOR, writes the story.
    His "characters" can't come up with anything original.
    They are just the AUTHORS creation.
    When they write a love story, why can this not be done without a sacrifice of some sort?
    Why can't someone write an original love story without a sacrifice?
    Because the Author didn't write love to be so.
    You may write a story, but if there is no sacrifice, it definitely won't be a LOVE story.
    Or why can't they come up with a suspense/adventure story that does not have the element of good vs. evil?
    Because that isn't our story!
    And more importantly, why do we never tire of the same story over and over again??
    The same bones are there always, and the characters and their situations change around a bit, so what keeps us from tiring of them?

    So by watching a father and son, we catch glimpses of the original story. No earthly father is perfect, so it isn't the case that we see the creator accurately displayed. We see a skewed and imperfect picture, with foibles and shattered pieces stuck together.

    Yes, I know you read the NT a good while ago.
    You said that you thought you might look at it again in order to get the accurate story instead of always asking people other than the author what the author meant and intended. To maybe see where the retellers of the story could be getting it wrong....kind of like....when you see two people arguing over what Thomas Jefferson thought, felt, and meant. You know they can't both be right because they are saying opposite things. So you go to the source yourself to find out which of them is telling the truth.
    You don't jump in on the argument because you really don't know which is correct until you have Jefferson talk to you in his writings.

    Once again, my motive for wanting you to read it is selfish, as I told you before.
    I want to see what a very capable mind does with the writing.
    I want to hear what you make of some of the apparent contradictions IN the writing.
    But also, I want you to stop having discussions and debates with people about a book you have not read recently enough to be able to call them on it when they have a part wrong. It is painful to watch someone so capable of mind come unprepared to the table. When they get it wrong, and I see they have got it wrong, I want to see what happens when you are able to call them on their inconsistency regarding the Man they claim to follow, based on what that man said himself, in his own words.
    But mostly, I want your mind applied to some of the riddles/parables/seeming inconsistencies.
    I want to use your mind.
    Selfish, I know.

    well, I guess you aren't the first person to suggest that I believe in some fashion, I guess its because i believe many of the same things that Christians (and I guess other theists) do, its just that we diverge on what those things are or what they should be attributed to.

    Yeah, I guess it would make sense if I were to continue to do this that I would start using scripture in my arguments.
    " Fellas, this visit's top secret, so no one is to know about it except the senior officers, scientists, and one conspiracy nut no one will believe. " -Probably Barack Obama

  8. #53

    Re: Christian murderers

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    It wasn't the greatest question. You either reveal prejudice or illiteracy, or you come to a straight answer which won't lead into another, or you end up with an attempt to go deeper and you lose sight. There weren't even any Luther's to declare David and Jew. What did you expect?

    Honestly, I cant recall having any clear expectation, In a sense I just put it out there because its what I was thinking, of course now I have one more example of why that's not a good reason to start a thread.....anyway everyone already knows that I have prejudices and biblical literacy issues, I dont think this thread diminished my stature in those categories.
    " Fellas, this visit's top secret, so no one is to know about it except the senior officers, scientists, and one conspiracy nut no one will believe. " -Probably Barack Obama

  9. #54
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    Re: Christian murderers

    Quote Originally Posted by oscarkipling View Post
    Honestly, I cant recall having any clear expectation, In a sense I just put it out there because its what I was thinking, of course now I have one more example of why that's not a good reason to start a thread.....anyway everyone already knows that I have prejudices and biblical literacy issues, I dont think this thread diminished my stature in those categories.
    You have prejudices and biblical literacy issues? Welcome to the club, I guess?

  10. #55
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    Re: Christian murderers

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    You have prejudices and biblical literacy issues? Welcome to the club, I guess?
    Makes you a member of 2 clubs. The huge club of people who have prejudices and biblical literacy issues and the very small club of people who are aware of the fact .

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