A Simple Question for You

[Noonzie]

What's that mean, Noonzie? Is it all God's choice? Does God say:

"These few I LOVE and created them to be righteous and saved, but all these others I HATE and I created them to be hated and to be sinful and to perish (and there's nothing either can do about it)"?

Is that God's attitude?

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory — 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Romans 9:14-24

[Gadgeteer]

Thank everyone for the comments. I would like to discuss on three groups- 1. People never go to church and like sinning 2. Devoted religion people 3. Christians claim 'I am already saved' and still sinning.

I am focusing on two groups- devoted religion people, and of course Christians claim, 'I am already saved', still sinning. First, start with devoted religion people. I want to discuss on Matt. 7:21-23. Christ said: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

My understanding (is that) there are two reasons why they are not all genuinely saved. Many devoted religion people know Jesus, they did many wonderful works for God or Jesus, they are doing their own good works to earn salvation, to enter into heaven. But they are not saved in the first place. Because they did not ask Jesus to save, and did not (become) born again. Many devoted religion people will be shocked in the Judgment Day, that they will be end up in the lake of fire.

Indeed. Revelation3:14-22 also applies; those who have become "lukewarm", they think they're rich but don't know they're poor blind miserable wretched and naked. How can they be those things but not know it?

But they did...

Now, I am discussing on second group-Christians claim, 'I am already saved' (but they) still practice sin. Lots of Christians in America believe in eternal unconditional security- so called, 'Once Saved Always Saved'(OSAS), or 'Perservance of the Saints' of Calvinism's fifth point of TULIP.

Well, there are three distinct views of OSAS, only one is "Calvinism/Tulip" (and in that, there are five-pointers, four-pointers, three-pointers, etcetera).

The first OSAS position views salvation as more of a "mental assent" --- it's properly called "Antinomianism", a subset of Gnosticism. They think that the SOUL can be saved even while the FLESH walks in sin. Passages like 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21 all oppose "sinning-but-saved" (or "backslidden-but-saved" as many like to call it).

The second OSAS view is "Eternal Security" --- they perceive that anyone can be saved (unlimited atonement, as opposed to the "L" in Tulip limited atonement), but once "in" either a person is too changed to leave, or God dynamically interferes to keep a person saved. Sometimes God will even end one's life so that he supposedly "remains saved".

The third view is of course Calvinism/Reformed-Theology/Predestined-salvation. Tulip. Although the "T", standing for "total depravity" goes much farther and really means "total inability". The crime is that the belief casts God as causal to sin and depravity, even if only by sovereign neglect to their irresistible sin! If God ordains a FEW to be saved ("limited atonement"), then by definition He also ordains most to be sinful and to perish.

Christians were taught by pastors, bible colleges, books, links, etc. that they say, "You are now already saved, because Christ already paid all our sins -past, present, and future at Calvary, no worry about our salvation, long as we are secured in Christ, our sins would not effect our salvation. Also, you can lose reward in the heaven, but you still always saved.".

Yeah, that reeks of the First Lie, told to Eve:

"You won't really die."

The weave of that lie has several variants:

"Don't worry, you'll ALWAYS have time to repent before you die; there's plenty of time."
"Oh a few sins aren't going to keep you out of Heaven; God knows you can't be sinless."
"It's GOD'S job to keep you; so don't sweat it --- have fun, God will take care of you!"

I believe the teaching of unconditional security salvation is danger. Because this doctrine gives them the false hope, and it is still okay to continue sinning while still saved. Christ tells us very clear- "You CANNOT serve two masters at same time"- Matt. 6:24. His point was, we cannot serve Christ, while serve sins at same time.

VERY well said. Jesus said "He who is not for Me is against Me; he who does not gather, scatters." That's the issue --- we belong to Him body heart and soul COMPLETELY, or we don't belong at all.

In 1 John 3:9 tells us, a truly born again believer CANNOT sin. Of course, God knows we as genuine Christians do sin daily-1 John 1:9. 1 John 3:9 points out that we as truly born again Christian do NOT continue practice sinning as habitually daily.

And that's a problem --- how is it that a "born-again" person CANNOT sin, but we CAN sin? Only one answer --- "born-again" must be fallible!

And that's the message in Heb12:7-9; if we are in submission to God's discipline then we shall live --- but if we REFUSE His discipline, then we're no longer sons but illegitimate.

Sadly, many truly saved Christians do continue sinning as habitually everyday for long time, because they thought they are already saved at once, because of what their pastors told them so. They are being brainwashed for believing the false hope of false doctrines.

What a tragedy. The essence of "salvation" is union between creature (you and me), and Creator; as such, if we were to sin, Jesus would participate in that sin. So any sin is a "turning-away-from-God"; what matters after we sin is if we turn BACK to Him, throwing ourselves at His feet in regret and shame and begging forgiveness (NOT taking for granted His promise in Jn1:9), or if we keep sinning.

So it's never the SIN that condemns us, but the "again".

In Matt. 7:23, Christ will say to them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work INIQUITY." I want to discuss on two words- 'knew', and 'iniquity'. First, focus on 'knew'. 'Knew' speaks of having relationship. There are lot of "know" in first epistle of John, not the gospel of John, I mean three epistles of John prior Jude and Revelation. 'Know' speaks of having relationship with God throughout our Christian life, and in our walk in the light as daily life. Many Christians claim, 'I know Jesus', but they still practicing (a) sinning life, therefore, they are lacking of having relationship with God. Same likewise as God do not know them, because of no relationship. If they continue walk in the dark, and have no light in them, therefore, Christ is NOT in them.

You cheated --- you read 1Jn1! :-)

Exactly right. But much more than "relationship", the word "fellowship" (1Jn1:1-3) describes salvation. We are indwelt by the Spirit and by Jesus such that Gal2:20 becomes true:

"I am CRUCIFIED with Christ, and it is no longer I that lives, but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me."

This embodies total submission to Christ, embracing His OWNERSHIP of us --- for we are not our own, we are bought with a price! Therefore we glorify God in our hearts and our bodies! (1Cor6:19-20.)

Many Christians who hold eternal security doctrine, will be shock in the Judgment Day, thought they are already saved, and their names were already wrote in the Book of Life, will end up in the lake of fire. The reason why, God will not allow people into His Kingdom-1. never ask Jesus to be saved as never born again 2. did ask Christ to saved, did repent of sin, but afterward, back to sinning for long time. I have seen many Christians claim, they did attend church daily, did serve the Lord, but they love the world at the same time. Therefore, God will NOT allow Christians to enter the Kingdom, because of continue sinning life without repent all the way to death (physical) or Lord comes.

This is a really really excellent post, DPT. But rather than slide down into some kind of "works-salvation", the answer is clearly to "draw near to God that He draws near to us". He has already overcome the world (Jn16:33); as we grow in Him, His triumph becomes ours, as His heart becomes ours.

I fear that 90% of devoted religion people and Christians who hold eternal security doctrine, will be shocked at the Judgment Day, will be end up in the lake of fire.

And that's a serious motivation to encourage people to re-evaluate their doctrine. Doesn't matter if we come to complete agreement --- as long as we draw near to God and grow strong in Christ (and He in us). For then we shall be together as family, and everyone wins!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Very commendable post; we see your heart, and it is a heart that loves people enough to want them as friends and family forever. A heart that belongs to Christ; you are a blessing!

:-)

[John146]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory — 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Romans 9:14-24

Please tell us how you interpret that passage and how you interpret this passage:

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

[Gadgeteer]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Noonzie, you didn't answer my question. Does God harden men to unbelief and perishing? Does He cause sin? God, in whom there is no sin (1Jn3:5), who can have nothing to do with evil else His house is divided (Matt12:25-29) --- God causes/ordains/decrees sin in those who perish?

Really?

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Who can resist God's BOULEMA-DECREED-will? But where does God decree anyone to perish? Not in 2Pet3:9, where God does not decree (boulemai!) any to perish but patiently waits for ALL to repent!

20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

So you take "atimia" as COMMON here (verse 21, "time-honor" and "atimia-common" are both saved), therefore there is a THIRD lump of clay that has not submitted itself to His Potter's Wheel (Rm9:22) --- that clay becomes vessels which prepared themselves for destruction by their willful sin (Rm2:5!!!). I am appalled that some people think God SCULPTED sin into the hearts of many!

I will be pleased if you agree with what I just said, about "three vessels", and "prepared themselves".

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory — 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

So this passage is "also Gentiles" --- and clearly asserts "If God wants to also save Gentiles, who are YOU to OBJECT?!"

Please tell us how you interpret that passage and how you interpret this passage:

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

What if John's right, Noonzie? What if God has mercy on ALL MEN, what if God really has arranged for all to be able to seek and find Him, though He's not far from anyone? (Acts17:26-27) What if God really does command ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent? (Acts17:30)

Consider the "Semitic View" --- Exodus 10:1 God hardened Pharaoh's heart; but did He really cause sin? Two verses earlier (9:34) Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart. So God didn't do it at all, it's a literary device ascribing to God what men do themselves.
Both verses mean the SAME:
God hardened Pharaoh's heart
Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart

See the principle? So when "God allots to each man a measure of faith" (Rm12:3), and when "God hardens whom He will and has mercy on whom He will" (Rm9:18) and when God "grants repentance" (2Tim2:25) it's really SEMITIC VIEW (also called "Anthropomorphism"), isn't it? They really come to their OWN senses and repent (2Tim2:26), even as the Prodigal Son came to his own senses and repented (Lk15:17). Don't they? THAT is why all heaven rejoices IF a sinner repents (Lk15:7), which they would not do if it was all God's decision. If it was God's decision they would just say "Oh, yeah, of course he repented, God decided it. (Yawn.)"

If GOD decides each man's faith (or not), then how can He run a judgment? How can WE be judged for what WE do in Rom2:6-8? He cannot; we are judged for our own decision to believe, or not. Says so in Jn3:18, and 1Jn5:10. Rather than passive recipients of God's sovereign decision, verses like Jn3:20-21 say that we decide what we want; God's righteousness, or sin. And THAT is the basis of our judgment! God's kindness LEADS us to repentance, BUT stubborn unrepentant hearts store up wrath for ourselves. How can God lead to repentance those who will not repent? Where is the "sovereign ordained destiny"?

Does God have mercy on all, or only on a FEW? Does God decide who WILL be sinful (and there's not a blessed thing they can do about it!) --- and who will be righteous and eternal? In Matt9:12-14 --- did Jesus come for SINNERS, who then can repent and be healed? Or did Jesus come for the RIGHTEOUS (who therefore don't need Him) and for sinners who can never receive Him?

Who did Jesus come for, Noonzie? Only if sinners can CHOOSE to repent and believe, can it be said that "Jesus came for sinners". If repentance and regeneration are monergistic, then Jesus' coming for sinners is worthless, isn't it? Repentance and regeneration must therefore have some connection to His coming; and the only connection is "belief".

Jesus came that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES (that is, whosoever WILL believe, Jn7:17, Rev22:17) may not perish but have eternal life.

What do you think about this, Noonzie? We look forward to your thoughts with great anticipation.

:-)

[Hawkins]

Please tell us how you interpret that passage and how you interpret this passage:

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Romans 11:30-32
New King James Version (NKJV)

30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

God's mercy through Jesus Christ is meant for all. The Covenant is open for all. If on the other His mercy is only for the belief, the unbelief will not be asked to believe. If however some choose to reject His mercy through Christ, they will be the condemned.

[salesman]

I find it interesting that very few think about the ramifications of what Christ preached. He said specifically that He was here to preach the kingdom of God. That was His theme on earth. Anything He called "gospel" or "good news" was the Kingdom of God. Salvation is rarely mentioned and "born again" is only mentioned once in a one-on-one conversation with Niccodemus. Even then you must be born again in order to do something- see the KINGDOM OF GOD! Jesus did not come to earth to save us. Salvation is the means to accomplishing His stated purpose- to bring forth the kingdom of God. He came to establish His Father's kingdom. Salvation is extended as a free gift, but once you accept salvation you accept the rules of the kingdom. You must produce fruit.

Jesus said in Luke that the reason He was hear was to preach the Kingdom. He said the kingdom would be given to those who produce fruit.
Matthew 21:
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’[h]?
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

John the Baptist said in Matthew 3:
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

John 15:
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

If I immigrate to America I must pay a fee to become a citizen. It is expensive to gain citizenship in this country. The cost of citizenship to God's Kingdom can never be paid by human effort, so Christ paid it in full. If I was given a free citizenship to the US it does not mean I can ignore all its laws. If I came from a country that allowed polygamy I cannot take three wives if I agree to be a citizen here where that is illegal. A citizen must follow the laws of His kingdom. Once I become a citizen of the Kingdom of God I must still follow His laws. A free gift of entrance to the Kingdom of God does not release me from all obligations of citizenship in His kingdom. The Bible in Jesus own words says fruit is the test of your citizenship status. (Matt. 7/ Luke 6/John 15)

Do you have to believe? Yes.
Do you have to be born again? Yes.
Do you need to repent of your sins? Yes.
Do you need to live a fruitful life? Yes.

Saying you MUST bear fruit is completely Biblical and does not contradict any scripture. It is much easier to accept the verses at face value then it is to try to explain them away. I heard a radio preacher relating the parable of the talents. The one who did not bear any fruit with what He was given was cast out of the household where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth. He quickly had to state "of course they won't really be thrown out", they will just lose their rewards. Huh? Jesus keeps inconveniently stating no fruit equals cut down, burned, cast out. Don't explain away Christ- believe HIM!

[John146]

Romans 11:30-32
New King James Version (NKJV)

30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

God's mercy through Jesus Christ is meant for all. The Covenant is open for all. If on the other His mercy is only for the belief, the unbelief will not be asked to believe. If however some choose to reject His mercy through Christ, they will be the condemned.

I couldn't agree more. Thanks for your input.

[mailmandan]

I fear that 90% of devote religion people and Christians who hold eternal security doctrine, will be shock at the Judgment Day, will be end up in the lake of fire.

Hello DeafPosttrib,

Do you believe that 90% of "genuine born again Christians" who hold to eternal security will end up in the lake of fire or are you focusing on "religious" people who think they are Christians but are not and hold to eternal security? There are people who may walk the isle at church, recite the sinners prayer (yet don't genuinely place their faith in Christ for salvation) then go on to believe they are saved simply because they went forward at church and recited a prayer. Do you believe that eternal security of the believer is false? Do you believe that we can have assurance of salvation? Do you believe that continuing to believe/have faith in Christ for salvation is an extremely difficult burden that most of us will surely fail to do and God will just so easily sit back and allow us to slip through His fingers?

[John146]

How much sinning? We all still sin (are you sinless and perfect?), but John says that no one who is born of God do practices sin. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Should we all be terrified that any sin at all equates to practicing sin? I don't know about you, but I don't claim to be sinless and perfect. Should we expect Jesus to cancel our salvation if we sin at all even though we are believers? If repent of sin means never sin again, then how many of us have repented?

Maybe you need to read his post again because he said something similar to what you said here. I guessed you missed where he said this:

In 1 John 3:9 tells us, a truly born again believer CANNOT sin. Of course, God knows we as genuine Christians do sin daily-1 John 1:9. 1 John 3:9 points out that we as truly born again Christian do NOT continue practice sinning as habitually daily.

Clearly, he does not believe he is sinless and perfect and he was speaking in the sense of born again believers not practicing sin rather than born again believers being sinless.

[mailmandan]

Maybe you need to read his post again because he said something similar to what you said here. I guessed you missed where he said this:

Clearly, he does not believe he is sinless and perfect and he was speaking in the sense of born again believers not practicing sin rather than born again believers being sinless.

Hello John146,

Thank you for pointing that out. I guess I did miss that part. I must still be snow blind from reading and responding to Gadgeteer's long post on the "OSAS Question" thread. LOL!

Allow me to review that part. - DeafPosttrib said - "1 John 3:9 tells us, a truly born again believer CANNOT sin. Of course, God knows we as genuine Christians do sin daily-1 John 1:9. 1 John 3:9 points out that we as truly born again Christian do NOT continue practice sinning as habitually daily. Then he went on to say - Sadly, many truly saved Christians do continue sinning as habitually everyday for long time, because they thought they are already saved at once, because of what their pastors told them so. I'm a little bit confused here. So which is it? Sounds like a contradiction.

[Colight]

I believe the teaching of unconditional security salvation is danger. Because, this doctrine gives them the false hope, and it is still okay to continue sinning while still saved. Christ tells us very clear- "You CANNOT serve two masters at same time"- Matt. 6:24. His point was, we cannot serve Christ, while serve sins at same time. In 1 John 3:9 tells us, a truly born again believer CANNOT sin.

Perhaps it is not saying that..
After all it is addressing FALSE TEACHING..


What is sin in this passage? ἁμαρτία -hamartia - to miss the mark or that which is done wrong.

When we are born of God that is the correct way for righteousness.

1 John 3:9 supports secure salvation..

7 Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who is doing the righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous, ( what is doing the righteous? Belief on Christ is doing the righteous)

8 he who is doing the( missing the mark on being righteous ), of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth ( missing the mark on being righteous ); for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; ( the Devil is always about human effort to produce some form of false righteousness thru works.. The NOSAS mind set is one that is based on works... therefore it is not doctrine of God.)

9 every one who hath been begotten of God, ( missing the mark on being righteous ) he doth not, because his ( GODS) seed in him doth remain ( therefore he is righteous ), and he is not able to (to miss the mark on righteousness), because of God he hath been begotten ( we have the same righteousness that God has ).

10 In this manifest are the children of God, and the children of the devil; every one who is not doing righteousness ( because we have been born into the righteousness of God we are able to do righteous), is not of God, and he who is not loving his brother,

If one is not born of God then they are not righteous..they have missed the mark, they have done it wrong.

To state this means Christians can not sin, is to really just read a translation rather than to dig into the verse and its doctrine.
To use this as a excuse to support in-secure salvation, is danger.

Side note.. not sinning is a incorrect way for salvation or to keep salvation... salvation is never gained or made perfect thru the flesh.

Galatians 3

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Salvation is thru the spirit, it is never gained or KEPT thru effort of the flesh.

Paul calls such a mind set of 'perfection thru the flesh ' as thoughtless.. or foolish.

[John146]

Hello John146,

Thank you for pointing that out. I guess I did miss that part. I must still be snow blind from reading and responding to Gadgeteer's long post on the "OSAS Question" thread. LOL!

Allow me to review that part. - DeafPosttrib said - "1 John 3:9 tells us, a truly born again believer CANNOT sin. Of course, God knows we as genuine Christians do sin daily-1 John 1:9. 1 John 3:9 points out that we as truly born again Christian do NOT continue practice sinning as habitually daily. Then he went on to say - Sadly, many truly saved Christians do continue sinning as habitually everyday for long time, because they thought they are already saved at once, because of what their pastors told them so. I'm a little bit confused here. So which is it? Sounds like a contradiction.

When you read it as a whole I think it's clear that, despite what he said at first, he was saying that while a born again Christian does sin he or she does not continue practicing sin as they did before becoming a born again Christian.

[mailmandan]

When you read it as a whole I think it's clear that, despite what he said at first, he was saying that while a born again Christian does sin he or she does not continue practicing sin as they did before becoming a born again Christian.

Thank you for paraphrasing it for me. I agree with your statement here.

[Gadgeteer]

I find it interesting that very few think about the ramifications of what Christ preached. He said specifically that He was here to preach the kingdom of God. That was His theme on earth. Anything He called "gospel" or "good news" was the Kingdom of God. Salvation is rarely mentioned and "born again" is only mentioned once in a one-on-one conversation with Niccodemus. Even then you must be born again in order to do something- see the KINGDOM OF GOD!

Hi, Salesman. What do you think Jesus meant by "see", in Jn3:3? The root is "eido" --- but in at least two forms, it means two very different things. "Oida" conveys "know/perceive", while "idein" means "behold/look-at". So when Jesus said "idein" in John3:3, it repeats verse 5 --- "unless you're born-again you cannot BEHOLD the kingdom", is the same message as "unless you are ...born of the Spirit you cannot ENTER the kingdom".

Both mean "get-there".

Jesus did not come to earth to save us. Salvation is the means to accomplishing His stated purpose- to bring forth the kingdom of God. He came to establish His Father's kingdom. Salvation is extended as a free gift, but once you accept salvation you accept the rules of the kingdom.

John3:16 is the quintessential passage; the Son came not to condemn the world but to save it. (Okay, that was verse 17.)

You must produce fruit.

No. Fruit is the consequence of "Christ-in-you"; we draw near to God through Jesus, and God draws near to us. The Spirit regenerates the heart, and fruit (irresistibly) flows from the indwelt heart.

Jesus said in Luke that the reason He was here was to preach the Kingdom. He said the kingdom would be given to those who produce fruit.

Huh-uh; the kingdom is given to those who believe and receive Him. Fruit is therefore the consequence.

Matthew 21:
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’[h]?
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

"Producing fruit" is the evidence of being a good tree (Matt7:16-18), being a good tree is the consequence of belonging to Jesus.

The whole thing is a union, an indwelt fellowship of love.

John the Baptist said in Matthew 3:
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

John 15:
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

But we don't focus on producing fruit; we focus on drawing near to God, that fruit becomes good. Make sense?

If I immigrate to America I must pay a fee to become a citizen. It is expensive to gain citizenship in this country. The cost of citizenship to God's Kingdom can never be paid by human effort, so Christ paid it in full. If I was given a free citizenship to the US it does not mean I can ignore all its laws. If I came from a country that allowed polygamy I cannot take three wives if I agree to be a citizen here where that is illegal. A citizen must follow the laws of His kingdom. Once I become a citizen of the Kingdom of God I must still follow His laws. A free gift of entrance to the Kingdom of God does not release me from all obligations of citizenship in His kingdom. The Bible in Jesus own words says fruit is the test of your citizenship status. (Matt. 7/ Luke 6/John 15)

There are two differences between "religion", and "Christianity". All religions assert that salvation/nirvana/whatever is by GOOD DEEDS, and that Jesus isn't God. Christianity professes Jesus is God, and salvation is a gift of grace, not works.

He paid the price; if it was by works, then we would pay the price.

Do you have to believe? Yes.

Believe what? Please see James2:19.

Do you have to be born again? Yes.

Exactly how do we do this? (Hint --- Romans6.)

Do you need to repent of your sins? Yes.

What does "repent" mean?

Do you need to live a fruitful life? Yes.

How?

Saying you MUST bear fruit is completely Biblical and does not contradict any scripture. It is much easier to accept the verses at face value then it is to try to explain them away. I heard a radio preacher relating the parable of the talents. The one who did not bear any fruit with what He was given was cast out of the household where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth. He quickly had to state "of course they won't really be thrown out", they will just lose their rewards. Huh? Jesus keeps inconveniently stating no fruit equals cut down, burned, cast out. Don't explain away Christ- believe HIM!

You're right, he'll be cast out. But what is our focus? Doing good deeds? No! Our focus is on CHRIST, because:

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is GOD who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose." Philip2:12-13.

In 2Pet1:5-11 Peter admonishes us to make our calling and salvation (election) firm/steadfast; how do we do that? We measure ourselves by our deeds, and if we are like the man who has FORGOTTEN purification from former sins, we draw near to Jesus that we become moral, godly, self-controlled, persevering, kind and loving.

That's the focus --- drawing near to Him. James4:6-10!

The veil tore, the moment Jesus died --- why? Because through Jesus, you're invited BEHIND the veil, into the very presence of Almighty God. Why does God invite you there? God, who can stand no sin --- invites YOU --- washed clean by Jesus' blood -- because God DELIGHTS in you. Enjoys your fellowship. His thoughts of you outnumber the grains of sand!

"Father, eternal life is knowing You, and knowing (Me)." Jn17:3.

That's it; it's not WHAT we know, but WHO we know --- and Who knows us.

:-)

[Gadgeteer]

Hello John146,

Thank you for pointing that out. I guess I did miss that part. I must still be snow blind from reading and responding to Gadgeteer's long post on the "OSAS Question" thread. LOL!

Huh??? Me make long posts? Surely you jest!!!

(May I call you "Shirley"???)

Allow me to review that part. - DeafPosttrib said - "1 John 3:9 tells us, a truly born again believer CANNOT sin. Of course, God knows we as genuine Christians do sin daily-1 John 1:9. 1 John 3:9 points out that we as truly born again Christian do NOT continue practice sinning as habitually daily. Then he went on to say - Sadly, many truly saved Christians do continue sinning as habitually everyday for long time, because they thought they are already saved at once, because of what their pastors told them so. I'm a little bit confused here. So which is it? Sounds like a contradiction.

Saved people do not practice sin. That the saved do (occasionally sin), is clear in 1Jn1:8, and 1Cor10:12-13. But we don't keep sinning.

Nevertheless, there must be some way to accommodate 1Jn3 ("those born-again CANNOT sin"), with 1Jn1 ("if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves").

The only way I can fit those two together is to recognize that "born-again", must be fallible. Because we CAN sin, we therefore can cease being born-again, if sin becomes a practice. And that's the clear message I see in Heb10:26-29 --- if WE continue sinning willfully after having been saved, Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us.

(Warning --- SHORT POST!!!) :-D