A Simple Question for You

[Dani H]

I ask you a simple question for you. Why should God allow you into heaven?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Because I can't live without Him, don't want to live without Him. Not on earth, not anywhere. If I can't be with Him, then I don't want to be anywhere.

[Colight]

Nevertheless, there must be some way to accommodate 1Jn3 ("those born-again CANNOT sin"),

Perhaps it is not saying that..
After all it is addressing FALSE TEACHING on righteousness..


What is sin in this passage? ἁμαρτία -hamartia - to miss the mark or that which is done wrong.

When we are born of God... that is the correct way for righteousness.

1 John 3:9 supports secure salvation..

7 Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who is doing the righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous, ( what is doing the righteous? Belief on Christ is doing the righteous)

8 he who is doing the( missing the mark on being righteous ), of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth ( missing the mark on being righteous ); for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; ( the Devil is always about human effort to produce some form of false righteousness thru works.. The NOSAS mind set is one that is based on works... therefore it is not doctrine of God.)

9 every one who hath been begotten of God, ( missing the mark on being righteous ) he doth not, because his ( GODS) seed in him doth remain ( therefore he is righteous ), and he is not able to (to miss the mark on righteousness), because of God he hath been begotten ( we have the same righteousness that God has ).

10 In this manifest are the children of God, and the children of the devil; every one who is not doing righteousness ( because we have been born into the righteousness of God we are able to do righteous), is not of God, and he who is not loving his brother,

If one is not born of God then they are not righteous..they have missed the mark, they have done it wrong.

To state this means Christians can not sin, is to really just read a translation rather than to dig into the verse and its doctrine.

To use this as a excuse to support in-secure salvation, is danger.

Side note.. not sinning is a incorrect way for salvation or to keep salvation... salvation is never gained or made perfect thru the flesh. Why is it when there is a verse like that the first thing Christians do is turn to the Flesh and works to keep salvation rather than the spirit and Christ?

Galatians 3

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Salvation is thru the spirit, it is never gained or KEPT thru effort of the flesh.

Paul calls such a mind set of 'perfection thru the flesh ' as thoughtless.. or foolish.

The only way I can fit those two together is to recognize that "born-again", must be fallible. Because we CAN sin, we therefore can cease being born-again, if sin becomes a practice. And that's the clear message I see in Heb10:26-29 --- if WE continue sinning willfully after having been saved, Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us.

(Warning --- SHORT POST!!!) :-D

It states nothing in this passage about salvation or THE LOSS THERE OF!!.


Hebrews 10

26 For we--wilfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth--no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,
27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;

For in Verse Heb 10:14 Salvation is ETERNALLY secure.

14 for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;

Perfected to the end= OSAS( there is NOTHING they can do to undo that perfection).

We are told in Heb 10:10 salvation is a ONE TIME ACTION...

10 in the which will we are having been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE ,

Now in verses 26 the key of that verse is "receiving the full knowledge of the truth" aka bible Doctrine

sinning = ἁμαρτάνω - hamartanō = to err or be mistaken.

Heb 10

26 For we -- willfully ( miss or wander from the path of uprightness after being given Bible Doctrine ) no more for ( missing this mark ) doth there remain a sacrifice,

27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;( when one rejects Bible Doctrine they are a adversary to God)

28 any one who did set at nought a law of Moses, apart from mercies, by two or three witnesses, doth die, ( People faced judgement on the flesh for violation of the law of Moses. This is a reference to death of the body.. not loss of salvation)

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

( Here is the real danger... by rejecting the truth of Bible Doctrine more will be done to the body than what was done to those who violated the law of Moses in other words life will be real hell on earth for that believer)


N-OSAS is a insult to the spirit of Grace it reguards the blood of the covenant as unclean .. for it turns to works of the flesh for perfection.... for working to not sin is legalism and works of the flesh..
A unbeliever can follow a no sin check list, so any thing the spiritually dead can do is not part of the living.
Are they Still saved?.. yes as stated in Heb 10:14, but under discipline even the discipline to death.

To live the Christian life by emotion rather than FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH is missing the mark and sets one to be in opposition to God.. the same as the Jews following the laws of Moses for salvation and spiritual growth.
Are they Still saved?.. yes as stated in Heb 10:14, but under discipline even the discipline to death.

[mailmandan]

Huh??? Me make long posts? Surely you jest!!! (May I call you "Shirley"???)

I thought you might like that one!

Saved people do not practice sin. That the saved do (occasionally sin), is clear in 1Jn1:8, and 1Cor10:12-13. But we don't keep sinning.

Amen! In regards to do not practice sin, the idea is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. I don't believe that this has to do with the person who is struggling with an area in his or her life and agonizes over the defeat. This would be deliberate, no agonizing, no repentance just bring it on!

Nevertheless, there must be some way to accommodate 1Jn3 ("those born-again CANNOT sin"), with 1Jn1 ("if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves").

Isn't John saying in 1 John 1:8 that if we say that we we have no personal guilt, no principle of sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us? Isn't this what some of the Gnostics held, since matter was evil and the soul was not contaminated by the sinful flesh? Such a person would not have a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that they are a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness (1 John 1:9). Verse 10 goes on to say, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." So denial of any specific acts of sin and denial of the principle of sin would not come from a heart that is saved. If the truth is not in us and His word is not in us, then we would not be saved.

The only way I can fit those two together is to recognize that "born-again", must be fallible. Because we CAN sin, we therefore can cease being born-again, if sin becomes a practice. And that's the clear message I see in Heb10:26-29 --- if WE continue sinning willfully after having been saved, Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us.

Yet John clearly said, No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. You are saying someone who is born of God CAN practice sin, even though His seed abides in him; he CAN sin, regardless if he is born of God. Hebrews 10:26 says, For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, (not after having been saved) there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. Just receiving the knowledge of the truth is not enough to save us if there is no heart submission to the truth. If someone draws back to perdition and does not believe to the saving of the soul, then how could they be saved? (vs. 39). To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21 not the righteous, who have been born of God - 1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9. To say that "those who are born of God can lose their salvation if they practice sin" and "no one who is born of God practices sin" would be a contradiction.

(Warning --- SHORT POST!!!)

Like I never makes any long posts.

[Redeemed by Grace]

I ask you a simple question for you. Why should God allow you into heaven?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

If I may... God allowing someone into heaven puts my mind to say it places man's works above God's grace and glory, which is what salvation is all about, God's grace.

For His Glory,

RbG

[John146]

If I may... God allowing someone into heaven puts my mind to say it places man's works above God's grace and glory, which is what salvation is all about, God's grace.

It is about God's grace and man's responsibility to respond favorably to His grace by repenting of his sins and placing his faith and trust in Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. God's grace alone does not save someone. It also requires personal faith in Christ. God's grace can be resisted. The following scriptures back up what I am saying:

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

2 Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

[salesman]

Hi, Salesman. What do you think Jesus meant by "see", in Jn3:3? The root is "eido" --- but in at least two forms, it means two very different things. "Oida" conveys "know/perceive", while "idein" means "behold/look-at". So when Jesus said "idein" in John3:3, it repeats verse 5 --- "unless you're born-again you cannot BEHOLD the kingdom", is the same message as "unless you are ...born of the Spirit you cannot ENTER the kingdom".

Both mean "get-there". John3:16 is the quintessential passage; the Son came not to condemn the world but to save it. (Okay, that was verse 17.) No. Fruit is the consequence of "Christ-in-you"; we draw near to God through Jesus, and God draws near to us. The Spirit regenerates the heart, and fruit (irresistibly) flows from the indwelt heart.
Huh-uh; the kingdom is given to those who believe and receive Him. Fruit is therefore the consequence.
"Producing fruit" is the evidence of being a good tree (Matt7:16-18), being a good tree is the consequence of belonging to Jesus.

The whole thing is a union, an indwelt fellowship of love.
But we don't focus on producing fruit; we focus on drawing near to God, that fruit becomes good. Make sense?
There are two differences between "religion", and "Christianity". All religions assert that salvation/nirvana/whatever is by GOOD DEEDS, and that Jesus isn't God. Christianity professes Jesus is God, and salvation is a gift of grace, not works.

He paid the price; if it was by works, then we would pay the price. Believe what? Please see James2:19.
Exactly how do we do this? (Hint --- Romans6.)
What does "repent" mean?
How?
You're right, he'll be cast out. But what is our focus? Doing good deeds? No! Our focus is on CHRIST, because:

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is GOD who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose." Philip2:12-13.

In 2Pet1:5-11 Peter admonishes us to make our calling and salvation (election) firm/steadfast; how do we do that? We measure ourselves by our deeds, and if we are like the man who has FORGOTTEN purification from former sins, we draw near to Jesus that we become moral, godly, self-controlled, persevering, kind and loving.

That's the focus --- drawing near to Him. James4:6-10!

The veil tore, the moment Jesus died --- why? Because through Jesus, you're invited BEHIND the veil, into the very presence of Almighty God. Why does God invite you there? God, who can stand no sin --- invites YOU --- washed clean by Jesus' blood -- because God DELIGHTS in you. Enjoys your fellowship. His thoughts of you outnumber the grains of sand!

"Father, eternal life is knowing You, and knowing (Me)." Jn17:3.

That's it; it's not WHAT we know, but WHO we know --- and Who knows us.

:-)

Your post kind of confused me. I believe salvation is necessary. You must believe, you must repent of your sins, you must be baptized. In other words every step that Jesus tells us we must take. Salvation is a gift freely given. I THINK both of us agree on that. I do not ever state that works can save you.

What I do say and i can show MANY verses that agree with this is that you must follow the laws of God and that you will be defined by the fruit you produce.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

the thought continues in verse 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

And again in verse 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Again, if you look at the topic addressed in the chapter he is talking about entering the gate, bearing fruit and avoiding false teaching. Then he says in
Matthew 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Again, what I was saying is that salvation is a gate to enter the kingdom. Salvation is necessary, but salvation is not the end purpose. Jesus states very clearly that the Kingdom is His purpose for being here on earth, not individual freedom from sin. We have taken God's divine plan and made it all about us. We are commanded to continue to do His good work and bear fruit. Not just get saved by dropping a prayer of belief and repentance to God.

[Noonzie]

Please tell us how you interpret that passage and how you interpret this passage:

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

based on the fact that Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, he is saying that God's mercy is not exclusive to Israel and is being revealed to all nations.

[Noonzie]

Noonzie, you didn't answer my question. Does God harden men to unbelief and perishing? Does He cause sin? God, in whom there is no sin (1Jn3:5), who can have nothing to do with evil else His house is divided (Matt12:25-29) --- God causes/ordains/decrees sin in those who perish?

You make an interesting assumption here. Why would that scripture bring you to think that I would assume that God causes man to sin? Man is already in sin, God doesn't make them do that.
And why would you say God would have nothing to do with sin? He was made sin, who had no sin. If He had nothing to do with sin, then how could He show us mercy since the objects of His mercy are utterly sinful?

Really?
Who can resist God's BOULEMA-DECREED-will? But where does God decree anyone to perish? Not in 2Pet3:9, where God does not decree (boulemai!) any to perish but patiently waits for ALL to repent!
So you take "atimia" as COMMON here (verse 21, "time-honor" and "atimia-common" are both saved), therefore there is a THIRD lump of clay that has not submitted itself to His Potter's Wheel (Rm9:22) --- that clay becomes vessels which prepared themselves for destruction by their willful sin (Rm2:5!!!). I am appalled that some people think God SCULPTED sin into the hearts of many!

Again.. we are certainly in sin, no one is assuming that God sculpted sin in someone.

I will be pleased if you agree with what I just said, about "three vessels", and "prepared themselves".
So this passage is "also Gentiles" --- and clearly asserts "If God wants to also save Gentiles, who are YOU to OBJECT?!"
What if John's right, Noonzie? What if God has mercy on ALL MEN, what if God really has arranged for all to be able to seek and find Him, though He's not far from anyone? (Acts17:26-27) What if God really does command ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent? (Acts17:30)

Paul and John are right. God shows His mercy to all, but we are so wicked that we will never choose Him of our own flesh. Paul talks about this and how God shows those He chooses, His glory.
I understand that the total sovereignty of God is a hard truth, but this truth should lead to worship of His sovereignty.

Consider the "Semitic View" --- Exodus 10:1 God hardened Pharaoh's heart; but did He really cause sin? Two verses earlier (9:34) Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart. So God didn't do it at all, it's a literary device ascribing to God what men do themselves.
Both verses mean the SAME:
God hardened Pharaoh's heart
Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart

Again, it is only by God's sovereign will that He did not soften the heart of Pharaoh. Not sure why there is such an issue with God choosing the objects of His creation. He chose Israel as His people. He chose humans to be the objects of His mercy. He did not offer the fallen angels mercy by giving His Son to them as a savior. Certainly the angels could worship him in a more holy way than us lowly weak creatures. Shall the angels protest God's lack of fairness in this manner?

See the principle? So when "God allots to each man a measure of faith" (Rm12:3), and when "God hardens whom He will and has mercy on whom He will" (Rm9:18) and when God "grants repentance" (2Tim2:25) it's really SEMITIC VIEW (also called "Anthropomorphism"), isn't it? They really come to their OWN senses and repent (2Tim2:26), even as the Prodigal Son came to his own senses and repented (Lk15:17). Don't they? THAT is why all heaven rejoices IF a sinner repents (Lk15:7), which they would not do if it was all God's decision. If it was God's decision they would just say "Oh, yeah, of course he repented, God decided it. (Yawn.)"

by this you lift the sovereignty of man above the sovereignty of God. Why is it the angels rejoice? It for the very reason that they and we exist. So that His name may be glorified. If a man chooses based on his own effort, then he shares in his own salvation and then takes some of that glory unto himself. God shares glory with no man. "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols." - Isaiah 42:8

If GOD decides each man's faith (or not), then how can He run a judgment? How can WE be judged for what WE do in Rom2:6-8? He cannot; we are judged for our own decision to believe, or not. Says so in Jn3:18, and 1Jn5:10. Rather than passive recipients of God's sovereign decision, verses like Jn3:20-21 say that we decide what we want; God's righteousness, or sin. And THAT is the basis of our judgment! God's kindness LEADS us to repentance, BUT stubborn unrepentant hearts store up wrath for ourselves. How can God lead to repentance those who will not repent? Where is the "sovereign ordained destiny"?

"Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots?
Neither can you do goodwho are accustomed to doing evil" - Jer 13:23

"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot." - Romans 8:7

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." - Psalm 51:5

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh" - John 3:6

Who is going to save us from this condition we are in? Ourselves???? How could I possibly trust in myself to make a decision to choose a holy God? God tells us what we are, he knows we are incapable of choosing Him. With that which is flesh choose spirit? How could we?

The fact that God has chosen man, and has chosen to save some should lead us all to worship. It should also lead us to go out and share this great Gospel that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Jesus came that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES (that is, whosoever WILL believe, Jn7:17, Rev22:17) may not perish but have eternal life.

Yes He Did!!! All glory be to the Lamb that was slain, the Lion of Judah.

What do you think about this, Noonzie? We look forward to your thoughts with great anticipation.

i appreciate your questions, and although I don't write quite as fine as you do, I pray God would be glorified through this response.

[Gadgeteer]

Perhaps it is not saying that..
After all it is addressing FALSE TEACHING on righteousness..

What is sin in this passage? ἁμαρτία -hamartia - to miss the mark or that which is done wrong.

It's the same word in 1Jn1:8, and 9.

When we are born of God... that is the correct way for righteousness.

1 John 3:9 supports secure salvation..

7 Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who is doing the righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous, ( what is doing the righteous? Belief on Christ is doing the righteous)

"Let no one lead you astray"? Is being led astray possible? Is it still saved? (Yes possible, no not still saved.)

8 he who is doing the( missing the mark on being righteous ), of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth ( missing the mark on being righteous ); for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; ( the Devil is always about human effort to produce some form of false righteousness thru works.. The NOSAS mind set is one that is based on works... therefore it is not doctrine of God.)

The "osnas" doctrine called "Responsible Grace", is not based on works; it's based on God's grace through faith, works being the consequence of the indwelling Son and Spirit. But all founds on faith, and faith must be both BEGINNING and ENDING --- Rom1:17. That's why all the verses say "if you CONTINUE".

9 every one who hath been begotten of God, ( missing the mark on being righteous ) he doth not, because his ( GODS) seed in him doth remain ( therefore he is righteous ), and he is not able to (to miss the mark on righteousness), because of God he hath been begotten ( we have the same righteousness that God has ).

"Sin" is missing the mark; and it's any transgression against God. It includes "do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery", etcetera.

10 In this manifest are the children of God, and the children of the devil; every one who is not doing righteousness ( because we have been born into the righteousness of God we are able to do righteous), is not of God, and he who is not loving his brother,

So those born/begotten of God cannot sin; but if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves.

Sin ruins "begottenness". Tell me --- in Rom14:15 and 1Cor8:11, what does "destroy a brother for whom Christ died" mean? Somehow "destroy" becomes "not REALLY destroy"?

If one is not born of God then they are not righteous..they have missed the mark, they have done it wrong.

And if one TURNS AWAY from righteousness, he is NO LONGER saved. Please read Ezk18:24.

To state this means Christians cannot sin, is to really just read a translation rather than to dig into the verse and its doctrine.

The fact that Christians can sin (1Cor10:12-13), screams that our position is "fallible".

To use this as a excuse to support insecure salvation, is danger.

There are all sorts of verses that speak of "fallible salvation"; see James5:19-20, Gal5:4, Heb4:11 for instance. That's why Peter warns us to "make our calling and election/salvation firm/steadfast".

Side note.. not sinning is an incorrect way for salvation or to keep salvation... salvation is never gained or made perfect thru the flesh.

That's right; else it would be "works-salvation".

Why is it when there is a verse like that the first thing Christians do is turn to the Flesh and works to keep salvation rather than the spirit and Christ?

Ever hear me say "keep salvation by works"? Ever hear anyone else on this board? You say "...keep salvation rather than the Spirit and Christ" --- what does Jude20-21 mean to you?

"Build yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in the love of God"

Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

In context --- begun in the Spirit (3:3), running well and obeying the truth (5:7), KNOWN by God but now turning back to weak worthless things (works!) to be enslaved all over again (4:9); they become severed from Christ and fallen from grace.

But "fallen-from-grace" does not really mean "fallen-from-grace". Please explain how?

Salvation is thru the spirit, it is never gained or KEPT thru effort of the flesh.

I look forward to your thoughts on what I just asked of Jude20-21. Please also consider 2Tim1:12-14, where we guard eternal life by the power of the Spirit, and Rom8:12-14 where we put to death the flesh by the power of the Spirit.

The Spirit's power --- but whose decision?

Paul calls such a mind set of 'perfection thru the flesh ' as thoughtless.. or foolish.

No, actually, he's rebuking them for turning BACK to law/works, forsaking Jesus' gospel.

The only way I can fit those two together is to recognize that "born-again", must be fallible. Because we CAN sin, we therefore can cease being born-again, if sin becomes a practice. And that's the clear message I see in Heb10:26-29 --- if WE continue sinning willfully after having been saved, Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us.

It states nothing in this passage about salvation or THE LOSS THEREOF!!

Of course it does. WE --- including the author, saved --- but by turning back to sin Jesus' sacrifice no longer saves us. Note well the bad example in verse 29 was sanctified by Jesus' blood (saved!), but now scorns that blood and tramples Jesus and insults the Spirit (saved no more!).

That man is US, if we do not heed the warning of 26.

Hebrews 10

26 For we--willfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth--no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,
27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;

For in Verse Heb 10:14 Salvation is ETERNALLY secure.

14 for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;

Those who are sanctified! The Greek for "hagiazō" is present passive PARTICIPLE --- those who ARE BEING sanctified.

Are CONTINUING to be sanctified.

The man in 10:29 was sanctified by Jesus' blood, but now he's NOT. He's not CONTINUING.

Can you deny this?

Perfected to the end= OSAS( there is NOTHING they can do to undo that perfection).

The man in 10:29 sure undid it, when he STOPPED BEING sanctified!

We are told in Heb 10:10 salvation is a ONE TIME ACTION...

10 in the which will we are having been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE ,

Huh-uh; we ARE (present indicative) BEING SANCTIFIED (perfect passive participle). Look it up, link above. Click on "tense". For verse 10, click on the "C" box for the Greek.

Are being --- it's an abiding-thing, which is the whole basis of "osnas"!!!

Now in verses 26 the key of that verse is "receiving the full knowledge of the truth" aka bible Doctrine

Huh-uh; "epignosis" is conveying experiential knowledge --- he's saying "SAVED".

sinning = ἁμαρτάνω - hamartanō = to err or be mistaken.

Heb 10

26 For we -- willfully ( miss or wander from the path of uprightness after being given Bible Doctrine ) no more for ( missing this mark ) doth there remain a sacrifice,

27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;( when one rejects Bible Doctrine they are a adversary to God)

28 any one who did set at nought a law of Moses, apart from mercies, by two or three witnesses, doth die, ( People faced judgement on the flesh for violation of the law of Moses. This is a reference to death of the body.. not loss of salvation)

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

All views of OSAS struggle to deny "movement" --- from saved, to unsaved. But that very movement is clear in the text. Read verse 25:

"Much less shall WE escape who turn away from God".

( Here is the real danger... by rejecting the truth of Bible Doctrine more will be done to the body than what was done to those who violated the law of Moses in other words life will be real hell on earth for that believer)


N-OSAS is an insult to the spirit of Grace--- it regards the blood of the covenant as unclean .. for it turns to works of the flesh for perfection.... for working to not sin is legalism and works of the flesh..

None of that. "Responsible Grace" (the real "osnas", not the "works-salvation" that you and I both reject) is pure Scripture.

An unbeliever can follow a no sin check list, so any thing the spiritually dead can do is not part of the living.
Are they Still saved?.. yes as stated in Heb 10:14, but under discipline even the discipline to death.

Excuse me, if there is such a thing as "discipline-to-DEATH-one-who-falls-into-sin", then he dies in his sin, not in salvation!

To live the Christian life by emotion rather than FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH is missing the mark and sets one to be in opposition to God.. the same as the Jews following the laws of Moses for salvation and spiritual growth.
Are they Still saved?.. yes as stated in Heb 10:14, but under discipline even the discipline to death.

I really hope you consider this post, and engage the verses cited. OSAS continues because people will not engage the verses that conflict osas, and will not respond to what cannot be answered. I will consider it an honor if you respond to the precise Scriptures and exegesis here.

:-)

[Gadgeteer]

I thought you might like that one!

Amen! In regards to do not practice sin, the idea is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. I don't believe that this has to do with the person who is struggling with an area in his or her life and agonizes over the defeat. This would be deliberate, no agonizing, no repentance just bring it on!

Well, the word "repent" is more of "turnaround"; suppose the Prodigal had agonized over his carousing and drinking and harlotting, but did not return. Is there "repentance" without "turning"?

Isn't John saying in 1 John 1:8 that if we say that we we have no personal guilt, no principle of sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us? Isn't this what some of the Gnostics held, since matter was evil and the soul was not contaminated by the sinful flesh?

Touche'! 1Jn was written to counter Gnosticism; but the principle of "sinningly-saved" is at issue, and John says "NO".

Such a person would not have a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that they are a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness (1 John 1:9). Verse 10 goes on to say, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." So denial of any specific acts of sin and denial of the principle of sin would not come from a heart that is saved. If the truth is not in us and His word is not in us, then we would not be saved.

I think it's more akin to Romans6-8. When we're born-again, we're still rebuked to not submit our bodies to sin, but submit ourselves to God as spiritually alive and dead to sin. The fight in chapter 7 is resolved in chapter 8; we put to death our flesh (and sin!) by the power of the Spirit.

It's all "abide in Him"...

Yet John clearly said, No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. You are saying someone who is born of God CAN practice sin, even though His seed abides in him; he CAN sin, regardless if he is born of God. Hebrews 10:26 says, For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, (not after having been saved) there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. Just receiving the knowledge of the truth is not enough to save us if there is no heart submission to the truth.

Recognize that when he says "receive knowledge of the truth", he's conveying SAVED knowledge. "Epignosis" in this context is eperiential.

Knowledge (epignwsin). "Full knowledge," as in Romans 6:4

If someone draws back to perdition and does not believe to the saving of the soul, then how could they be saved? (vs. 39).

They cannot. But they WERE...

To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidentally fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION.

And look at how that becomes a danger to us --- in Heb3:6-14 we can harden our hearts, by not guarding against deceitful sin which can cause us to fall away from God!

The unrighteous practice sin - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21 not the righteous, who have been born of God - 1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9. To say that "those who are born of God can lose their salvation if they practice sin" and "no one who is born of God practices sin" would be a contradiction.

That's right --- and the only way to resolve it is to recognize that one who is "born-of-God" (in Heb10:29 "sanctified by Jesus' blood"), can become unsanctified/unborn...

Like I never make any long posts.

Heh heh heh.

:-)

[Gadgeteer]

If I may... God allowing someone into heaven puts my mind to say it places man's works above God's grace and glory, which is what salvation is all about, God's grace.

For His Glory,

RbG

RbG, in Romans2:4-8 God's patience and kindness LEADS to repentance; but who decides the stubborn unrepentance and stores up wrath for themselves?

Do you perceive that as "God does NOT really lead them to repentance"?

[Gadgeteer]

Your post kind of confused me. I believe salvation is necessary. You must believe, you must repent of your sins, you must be baptized.

"Waterbaptized"? Water is not part of salvation. Please connect Matt3:11 with Acts1:5 and Acts11:16 --- immersion-into-the-Spirit has nothing to do with water (in Acts1:5 they were already dipped, and weren't going to be dipped again).

THEREFORE, because "immersion-into-Christ" is the same event as "immersion-into-the-Spirit", Rom6:4-6 (and Eph4:5) have nothing to do with water. Don't mean for us to get sidetracked, but it can be an important issue.

In other words every step that Jesus tells us we must take. Salvation is a gift freely given. I THINK both of us agree on that. I do not ever state that works can save you.

Then we agree; salvation is a free gift, and "if by works then grace is no longer grace" (Rom11:6); but he who IS saved, will be waterbaptized, and will have good works.

What I do say and I can show MANY verses that agree with this is that you must follow the laws of God and that you will be defined by the fruit you produce.

It's all a "focus" thing --- we follow God's laws BECAUSE we believe (and are saved), not to BE saved. I bet we agree.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

the thought continues in verse 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

And again in verse 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Because you and I agree that we are not saved by works, works are the consequence of "Christ-in-you".

Now --- please read 2Cor13:5 and tell me that "Christ-in-you" cannot become forfeited. "Adokimos" was a coin word; coins would be gathered and examined to see if they still bore the image impressed on them. If the image had faded, they would be "adokimos-rejected/disqualified/castaway".

...the same word as in 1Cor9:27 where Paul himself could be disqualified.

Again, if you look at the topic addressed in the chapter he is talking about entering the gate, bearing fruit and avoiding false teaching. Then he says in
Matthew 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

In that case, "DOES My words", is "believe savingly".

When we are judged by our deeds (Rm2:6-8, Rev20:13), deeds never save nor condemn; but they expose a heart that WAS saved, or not.

Again, what I was saying is that salvation is a gate to enter the kingdom. Salvation is necessary, but salvation is not the end purpose. Jesus states very clearly that the Kingdom is His purpose for being here on earth, not individual freedom from sin. We have taken God's divine plan and made it all about us. We are commanded to continue to do His good work and bear fruit. Not just get saved by dropping a prayer of belief and repentance to God.

Well, God sent His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes should not perish but have eternal life. As such, the kingdom of God is LIKE a wedding feast that everyone is invited to, those who come (and change clothes) become the "chosen".

"MANY (everyone in view!) are called, but FEW (those who came & put on clean clothes) are chosen/elected/saved". Matt22:2-14.

[Colight]

The "osnas" doctrine called "Responsible Grace", is not based on works; it's based on God's grace through faith, works being the consequence of the indwelling Son and Spirit. But all founds on faith, and faith must be both BEGINNING and ENDING --- Rom1:17. That's why all the verses say "if you CONTINUE".

Responsible Grace? Sounds like Legalism to me...

Just to be clear.. we are not discussing Romans 1:17.. it is off topic.

We are in 1 John 3....Lets focus there first before we play musical verses.



Lets review again.. with out all the Romans stuff and defining sin as ONLY stuff that shocks us.

1 John 3

8 he who is doing the( missing the mark on being righteous ),
of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth ( missing the mark on being righteous );
for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;

( the Devil is always about human effort to produce some form of false righteousness thru works..
The NOSAS mind set is one that is based on works. or effort of the flesh.. therefore it is not doctrine of God.)

Sin ruins "begottenness".

Does not state that, in essence you are in doctrinal untruth when you state that.
...Verse 9 States...

9 every one who hath been begotten of God, ( missing the mark on being righteous( vs 7 )) he doth not, because his ( GODS) seed in him doth remain ( therefore he is righteous ),
and he is not able to (to miss the mark on righteousness),
because of God he hath been begotten ( we have the same righteousness that God has ).

Gods seed REMAINS in HIM.. PERIOD!!
Why Because he is begotten of GOD!!!.. PERIOD!!!
This is why he CAN not miss the mark on Being Righteous to God.

What can lead a believer Astray?

7 Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who is doing the righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous,
( what is doing the righteous? Belief on Christ is doing the righteous)

Leading astray would be things like saying we need to stop sinning to be saved..
It takes the focus off the righteous ( aka Christs work ) and puts it on HUMAN motivation and works.
NOSAS leads people astray.. it takes the focus OFF Christ.

Rom14:15 and 1Cor8:11 out of Context.
The Passage in Review is 1 John 3, focus man focus...

Now lets get back to what I posted with OUT Musical verses..
AKA On 1 John 3... No Ezekiel..
No other passages.
the focus is here.,

From verse 9
If one is not born of God then they are not righteous..they have missed the mark, they have done it wrong.

To state this means Christians cannot sin, is to really just read a translation rather than to dig into the verse and its doctrine.

To use this as a excuse to support insecure salvation, is danger.
( Again the FOCUS is ONLY 1 John 3... Not 1 Cor or James5:19-20 or Gal5:4 or Heb4:11 )

Why is it when there is a verse like that the first thing Christians do is turn to the Flesh and works to keep salvation rather than the spirit and Christ? ... )

Ever hear me say "keep salvation by works"? Ever hear anyone else on this board? You say "...keep salvation rather than the Spirit and Christ" -

No it is called some thing euphoric name like.."Responsible Grace"

Also we need from you,Gadgeteer, is definition of salvation.

Since you seem to be so sure as to who gets it and who does not..
Perhaps we should go into what it is we get.
You have never defined salvation.... only how we can lose it.

[Colight]

Of course it does. WE --- including the author, saved --- but by turning back to sin

Jesus' sacrifice no longer saves us. Note well the bad example in verse 29 was sanctified

by Jesus' blood (saved!), but now scorns that blood and tramples Jesus and insults the

Spirit (saved no more!).

Yet.. This missing the mark here is tied with "full knowledge of the truth"..
This is not about shocking sins of the hell raiser.. this is about the self righteousness
of the Christian..

When given correct truth they still follow a lie.

Those who are sanctified! The Greek for "hagiazō" is present passive PARTICIPLE --- those

who ARE BEING sanctified.

Are CONTINUING to be sanctified.

The man in 10:29 was sanctified by Jesus' blood, but now he's NOT. He's not CONTINUING.

Can you deny this?

Ok the verse once more..

14 for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;

They are perfect to the END..and keep on being purified thru the offering Christ did

ONCE!!
There is no need for another offering..
There is nothing about abiding for this to occur.
The offering Christ did is still active and continues to be active it never ceases.

The focus is Forever... 'eis diēnekēs'

Christ has Perfected thru his offering ..

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ
once for all.

Once and for ALL we are and keep on being purified by the offering Christ Gave.
IT occurs to us from the moment of salvation. it will never stop.
For it is done ONCE AND FOR ALL and continues to be done once and for all..

Huh-uh; "epignosis" is conveying experiential knowledge --- he's saying "SAVED".

You are out of context.

why would he bring Israel into this?
Remember he is writing to the JEWS.
Jews who are using the LAW as salvation.
Now they have been given true Doctrine, the doctrine of Christ
This is not about salvation of losing it.. it is about.. what will you follow.

Jews used the LAW... those in NOSAS is use Legalism in the same manner... as the Jews used the Law.
Both systems ignore Christ and grace..
Both are about man and what man can do to keep saved.
The LAW and LEGALISM can only condemn, neither are methods to gain or keep salvation...

Verses 26-29 again..

Heb 10
26 For we -- willfully ( miss or wander from the path of uprightness after being given Bible Doctrine ) no more for ( missing this mark ) doth there remain a sacrifice,

27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;( when one rejects Bible Doctrine they are a adversary to God)

28 any one who did set at nought a law of Moses, apart from mercies, by two or three witnesses, doth die, ( People faced judgement on the flesh for violation of the law of Moses. This is a reference to death of the body.. not loss of salvation)

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot
the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was
sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

It is a ..warning
that there will be great punishment for rejection of this Grace from Christ.

It is not a passage over loss of salvation!!
Rather it is a warning to keep to the truth or face the whip...

NOSAS regards the blood of Christ as unclean and incomplete, instead it is the effort of man to not sin is what makes one pure..( The NOSAS define it as habitual sinning, so they can get away with a few sins. Unknown how many sins one must do to be called habitual. Scripture states ONE sin condemned ALL MEN and it was not a HABITUAL sin)

What Christ has completed.. NOSAS says is incomplete.

To NOSAS man is made pure by the act of man...
not by the offering of Christ for in NOSAS Christs offering is not complete...( In conflict with verse 14 )

rather it takes man not sinning to complete it. ( Conflict verse 10 )

NOSAS is the worship of man over Christ.. there fore it conflicts with solid doctrine and this warning in Hebrews very much so applies to those who promote NOSAS.

[John146]

based on the fact that Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, he is saying that God's mercy is not exclusive to Israel and is being revealed to all nations.

No, Paul was saying that God concluded all people in unbelief so that He might have mercy upon all people. He was saying that God wished to have mercy upon all unbelievers, including the Gentiles who "in times past have not believed God" (Rom 11:30) and the Israeliltes who had "also now not believed". That goes right along with other scripture that says God wants all people to repent (Eze 18:23, Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (John 3:16-17, 1 Tim 2:3-6, 1 John 2:1-2).