I ask you a simple question for you. Why should God allow you into heaven?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Senior Member
I ask you a simple question for you. Why should God allow you into heaven?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Posting Freak
Don't worry, He won't...Originally Posted by DeafPosttrib
Joh 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
We are not going there, He is coming here...
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
What church or churches teaches that Christians won't go to heaven? I'm just curious.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
Can you clarify your question? I'm not exactly sure what you are asking despite it being what you called "a simple question". Are you asking what is it about me that should make God allow me into heaven or are you asking what am I required to do in order for God to allow me into heaven?
Senior Member
I would like to hear from reformers' respond on this question.
guest
He can not deny him self.
We have his righteousness imputed to us at salvation.
For God to deny us, would be to deny him self, this he can not do ... therefore we are not to be denied.
Afr.Forum Mod
Because of what Jesus did for me..
Fenris: "There are two ways to shoot an arrow into a bulls-eye You can shoot the arrow into the bulls-eye or you can shoot the arrow and paint the bulls-eye wherever it hits"
Romans 12:19 Don't seek revenge ... give place to God's wrath. For it is written "Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, says the Lord"
Isa. 30:32
And every blow of the rod of punishment, which the Lord will lay on him, will be with the music of tambourines and lyres; And in battles, brandishing weapons, He will fight them
G_d was gracious He has shown favor
What are you willing to die for? Now live for it!
Coffee Break
We can examine this question from either one of two sides. The Bible says that we don't merit God's blessing and yet, at the same time, the Bible talks about the qualities of a person whom he will bless, which are not shared by all human beings.
Senior Member
We really won't be in "heaven" per se, we will be where ever Christ is, if we have trusted Him for salvation.
But in response to the OP, He shouldn't, but Jesus has paid my debt to God, and when He looks upon me God sees the righteousness of His Son, I am a joint heir with Christ.
Mark
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14
(All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)
Senior Member
Thank everyone for the comments. I would like to discuss on three groups- 1. People never go to church and like sinning 2. Devoted religion people 3. Christians claim 'I am already saved' and still sinning.
I am focus on two groups- devoted religion people, and of course Christian claim, 'I am already saved', still sinning. First, start with devote religion people. I want to discuss on Matt. 7:21-23. Christ said: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesised in thy name? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
My understanding there are two reasons why, they are not all genuinely saved. Many devote religion people know Jesus, they did many wonderful works for God or Jesus, they are doing their own good works for earn salvation, to enter into heaven. But, they are not saved in the first place. Because, they did not ask Jesus to save, and did not born again. Many devote religion people will be shock in the Judgement Day, that they will be end up in the lake of fire. Now, I am discuss on second group-Christians claim, 'I am already saved' still practice sin. Lot of Christians in America, believe in eternal unconditional security- so called, 'Once Saved Always Saved'(OSAS), or 'Perservance of the Saints' of Calvinism's fifth point of TULIP. Christians were taught by pastors, bible colleges, books, links, etc. that they say, "You are now already saved, because Christ already paid all our sins -past, present, and future at Calvary, no worry about our salvation, long as we are secured in Christ, our sins would not effect our salvation. Also, you can lose reward in the heaven, but you still always saved.".
I believe the teaching of unconditional security salvation is danger. Because, this doctrine gives them the false hope, and it is still okay to continue sinning while still saved. Christ tells us very clear- "You CANNOT serve two masters at same time"- Matt. 6:24. His point was, we cannot serve Christ, while serve sins at same time. In 1 John 3:9 tells us, a truly born again believer CANNOT sin. Of course, God knows we as genuine Christians do sin daily-1 John 1:9. 1 John 3:9 points out that we as truly born again Christian do NOT continue practice sinning as habitually daily.
Sadly, many truly saved Christians do continue sinning as habitually everyday for long time, because they thought they are already saved at once, because of what their pastors told them so. They are being brainwashed for believing the false hope of false doctrines.
In Matt. 7:23, Christ will say to them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work INIQUITY." I want to discuss on two words- 'knew', and 'iniquity'. First, focus on 'knew'. 'Knew' speaks of having relationship. There are lot of "know" in first epistle of John, not the gospel of John, I mean three epistles of John prior Jude and Revelation. 'Know' speaks of having relationship with God throughout our Christian life, and in our walk in the light as daily life. Many Christians claim, 'I know Jesus', but they still practical sinning life, therefore, they are lack of having relationship with God. Same likewise as God do not know them, because of no relationship. If they continue walk in the dark, and have no light in them, therefore, Christ is NOT in them.
Many Christians who hold eternal security doctrine, will be shock in the Judgment Day, thought they are already saved, and their names were already wrote in the Book of Life, will be end up in the lake of fire. The reason why, God will not allow people into His Kingdom-1. never ask Jesus to be saved as never born again 2. did asked Christ to saved, did repented of sin, but afterward, back to sinning for long time. I have seen many Christians claim, they did attend church daily, did serve the Lord, but they love the world at the same time. Therefore, God will NOT allow Christians to enter the Kingdom, because of continue sinning life without repent all the way to death(Phyiscal) or Lord comes.
I fear that 90% of devote religion people and Christians who hold eternal security doctrine, will be shock at the Judgment Day, will be end up in the lake of fire.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
guest
That is all nice..
Before one states it can be lost..
Perhaps it should be defined.
What is salvation?
What occurs at salvation.....
What exactly can we lose..
Who owns salvation and did the labor for it?
Who payed the price for salvation?
What God came up with the concept of salvation, was he aware sin was on the earth.. or did sin take him by total surprise?
How does the spirit fit into all this?
I would love to see a in depth analysis from a NOSAS crusader on what exactly is salvation.
guest
**
This may sound as an over simplification but -- Salvation simply is Gods Spirit manifest in your mortal body. If God is not manifest in you then where is ones salvation? Ill tell you, and contrary to Him, it is by the law and we establish the law. But God establishes His Spirit and it isnt by might, not by power, but by my Spirit says the Lord. Salvation is the reality of Christ in you to perform in you that which He is able. Not because we say we are saved because because the law says that Jesus did it all for us, but because that same Spirit that was in Christ Jesus came and made His abode in you as well. This is salvation that Christ be formed in you.
Posting Freak
Indeed. Revelation3:14-22 also applies; those who have become "lukewarm", they think they're rich but don't know they're poor blind miserable wretched and naked. How can they be those things but not know it?
But they did...Well, there are three distinct views of OSAS, only one is "Calvinism/Tulip" (and in that, there are five-pointers, four-pointers, three-pointers, etcetera).Now, I am discussing on second group-Christians claim, 'I am already saved' (but they) still practice sin. Lots of Christians in America believe in eternal unconditional security- so called, 'Once Saved Always Saved'(OSAS), or 'Perservance of the Saints' of Calvinism's fifth point of TULIP.
The first OSAS position views salvation as more of a "mental assent" --- it's properly called "Antinomianism", a subset of Gnosticism. They think that the SOUL can be saved even while the FLESH walks in sin. Passages like 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21 all oppose "sinning-but-saved" (or "backslidden-but-saved" as many like to call it).
The second OSAS view is "Eternal Security" --- they perceive that anyone can be saved (unlimited atonement, as opposed to the "L" in Tulip limited atonement), but once "in" either a person is too changed to leave, or God dynamically interferes to keep a person saved. Sometimes God will even end one's life so that he supposedly "remains saved".
The third view is of course Calvinism/Reformed-Theology/Predestined-salvation. Tulip. Although the "T", standing for "total depravity" goes much farther and really means "total inability". The crime is that the belief casts God as causal to sin and depravity, even if only by sovereign neglect to their irresistible sin! If God ordains a FEW to be saved ("limited atonement"), then by definition He also ordains most to be sinful and to perish.Yeah, that reeks of the First Lie, told to Eve:Christians were taught by pastors, bible colleges, books, links, etc. that they say, "You are now already saved, because Christ already paid all our sins -past, present, and future at Calvary, no worry about our salvation, long as we are secured in Christ, our sins would not effect our salvation. Also, you can lose reward in the heaven, but you still always saved.".
"You won't really die."
The weave of that lie has several variants:
"Don't worry, you'll ALWAYS have time to repent before you die; there's plenty of time."
"Oh a few sins aren't going to keep you out of Heaven; God knows you can't be sinless."
"It's GOD'S job to keep you; so don't sweat it --- have fun, God will take care of you!"
VERY well said. Jesus said "He who is not for Me is against Me; he who does not gather, scatters." That's the issue --- we belong to Him body heart and soul COMPLETELY, or we don't belong at all.I believe the teaching of unconditional security salvation is danger. Because this doctrine gives them the false hope, and it is still okay to continue sinning while still saved. Christ tells us very clear- "You CANNOT serve two masters at same time"- Matt. 6:24. His point was, we cannot serve Christ, while serve sins at same time.And that's a problem --- how is it that a "born-again" person CANNOT sin, but we CAN sin? Only one answer --- "born-again" must be fallible!In 1 John 3:9 tells us, a truly born again believer CANNOT sin. Of course, God knows we as genuine Christians do sin daily-1 John 1:9. 1 John 3:9 points out that we as truly born again Christian do NOT continue practice sinning as habitually daily.
And that's the message in Heb12:7-9; if we are in submission to God's discipline then we shall live --- but if we REFUSE His discipline, then we're no longer sons but illegitimate.
What a tragedy. The essence of "salvation" is union between creature (you and me), and Creator; as such, if we were to sin, Jesus would participate in that sin. So any sin is a "turning-away-from-God"; what matters after we sin is if we turn BACK to Him, throwing ourselves at His feet in regret and shame and begging forgiveness (NOT taking for granted His promise in Jn1:9), or if we keep sinning.Sadly, many truly saved Christians do continue sinning as habitually everyday for long time, because they thought they are already saved at once, because of what their pastors told them so. They are being brainwashed for believing the false hope of false doctrines.
So it's never the SIN that condemns us, but the "again".
You cheated --- you read 1Jn1! :-)In Matt. 7:23, Christ will say to them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work INIQUITY." I want to discuss on two words- 'knew', and 'iniquity'. First, focus on 'knew'. 'Knew' speaks of having relationship. There are lot of "know" in first epistle of John, not the gospel of John, I mean three epistles of John prior Jude and Revelation. 'Know' speaks of having relationship with God throughout our Christian life, and in our walk in the light as daily life. Many Christians claim, 'I know Jesus', but they still practicing (a) sinning life, therefore, they are lacking of having relationship with God. Same likewise as God do not know them, because of no relationship. If they continue walk in the dark, and have no light in them, therefore, Christ is NOT in them.
Exactly right. But much more than "relationship", the word "fellowship" (1Jn1:1-3) describes salvation. We are indwelt by the Spirit and by Jesus such that Gal2:20 becomes true:
"I am CRUCIFIED with Christ, and it is no longer I that lives, but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me."
This embodies total submission to Christ, embracing His OWNERSHIP of us --- for we are not our own, we are bought with a price! Therefore we glorify God in our hearts and our bodies! (1Cor6:19-20.)
This is a really really excellent post, DPT. But rather than slide down into some kind of "works-salvation", the answer is clearly to "draw near to God that He draws near to us". He has already overcome the world (Jn16:33); as we grow in Him, His triumph becomes ours, as His heart becomes ours.Many Christians who hold eternal security doctrine, will be shock in the Judgment Day, thought they are already saved, and their names were already wrote in the Book of Life, will end up in the lake of fire. The reason why, God will not allow people into His Kingdom-1. never ask Jesus to be saved as never born again 2. did ask Christ to saved, did repent of sin, but afterward, back to sinning for long time. I have seen many Christians claim, they did attend church daily, did serve the Lord, but they love the world at the same time. Therefore, God will NOT allow Christians to enter the Kingdom, because of continue sinning life without repent all the way to death (physical) or Lord comes.
And that's a serious motivation to encourage people to re-evaluate their doctrine. Doesn't matter if we come to complete agreement --- as long as we draw near to God and grow strong in Christ (and He in us). For then we shall be together as family, and everyone wins!I fear that 90% of devoted religion people and Christians who hold eternal security doctrine, will be shocked at the Judgment Day, will be end up in the lake of fire.
Very commendable post; we see your heart, and it is a heart that loves people enough to want them as friends and family forever. A heart that belongs to Christ; you are a blessing!In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
:-)
Grand Master
Hello DeafPosttrib,
Do you believe that 90% of "genuine born again Christians" who hold to eternal security will end up in the lake of fire or are you focusing on "religious" people who think they are Christians but are not and hold to eternal security? There are people who may walk the isle at church, recite the sinners prayer (yet don't genuinely place their faith in Christ for salvation) then go on to believe they are saved simply because they went forward at church and recited a prayer. Do you believe that eternal security of the believer is false? Do you believe that we can have assurance of salvation? Do you believe that continuing to believe/have faith in Christ for salvation is an extremely difficult burden that most of us will surely fail to do and God will just so easily sit back and allow us to slip through His fingers?
Last edited by mailmandan; Jun 27th 2012 at 07:50 PM.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
Maybe you need to read his post again because he said something similar to what you said here. I guessed you missed where he said this:
Clearly, he does not believe he is sinless and perfect and he was speaking in the sense of born again believers not practicing sin rather than born again believers being sinless.
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