When does regeneration takes place?

[DeafPosttrib]

To Reformers: I ask you a question. When does regeneration takes place? Before faith or After faith?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

[episkopos]

I would say simultaneously.

[percho]

To Reformers: I ask you a question. When does regeneration takes place? Before faith or After faith?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Not as a reformer or whatever but as a student of the word of God.

Regeneration found twice in the AV? I will put a ? there for AV is only an opinion. Matt. 19:28 παλιγγενεσίᾳ Titus 3:5 παλιγγενεσίας

Let us see what παλιγγενεσίας/παλιγγενεσίᾳ really is

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Salvation was brought forth or wrought by the grace of God.
Eph. 2:8 By grace are ye saved (by grace salvation was brought forth) WHY through the faith. Because of faith God by his grace brought forth salvation. How, just what was the grace of God the brought forth salvation?
Titus 3:5 According to his mercy he saved us (brought forth salvation, bringeth salvation) {How, by grace of God and what is it?} by washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

Faith? Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Gal. 3:23,25 speak of before the faith came and after the faith did come.
What faith? The obedience of Jesus the Son of God unto death even the death of the cross. Before the faith came one was under the law. After the faith came one was no longer the law. But was under guess what! Grace. It is Jesus of whom it is said, he is the firstborn from the dead. Regeneration.


Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, "That ye which have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

When he comes to sit on the throne of his glory, then will we follow him in the regeneration. ! John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[Boo]

The question appears to want to split hairs. From my studies, I have seen that the whole event of accepting Jesus as our savior happened at the same time. They recieved the Word, believed it, repented, and were baptized. I don't recall anywhere in scripture where anyone questioned the events as to which parts were important and which parts were not. They just asked "OK, I believe, now what?" When they event was over, they had been baptized by the Holy Spirit and were regenerated.

Believing and professing faith and committing to follow Jesus all happened in those few moments. I see it as a single event, and it appears that those in the first century church did as well.

[percho]

Let's come in by another door.

regeneration

spirit


KJV Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Scripture4all Greek interlinear Gal. 3:2 This only I am willing to be learning from you, out of works of law the Spirit ye got or out of hearing of faith?


What does of mean?

I ask that because of this verse.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


What is the relation between, but is I depart, I will send him to you and of?

Does of faith have something to do with Jesus going away? The Spirit would not come if he did not go away. Why?
Does Jesus going away have anything to do with Phil. 2:8? And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; This is speaking of the Spirit. Does the word through mean Jesus received the Spirit before it was shed on us?

[watchinginawe]

To Reformers: I ask you a question. When does regeneration takes place? Before faith or After faith?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

I am not "reformed" in my theology, but the answer (in reformed theology, and in my opinion since surely someone will disagree with me) is "before".

It goes like this. The doctrine of total depravity insists that humanity cannot respond in faith to God or His overtures because of their complete spiritual depravity. Humanity possesses no "sense" (sensation) of God at all, nor can such be developed without God's direct intervention. The direct intervention of God in this matter is regeneration, enabling whom God has "elected" to respond in faith. Thus reformed theology holds that the response of faith is "given" by grace in regeneration.

The actions in salvation are "monergistic" by reformed theology, thus both the entreaty and response are governed solely by God; humanity must be regenerated in order to respond in faith.

[Eyelog]

I am not "reformed" in my theology, but the answer (in reformed theology, and in my opinion since surely someone will disagree with me) is "before".

It goes like this. The doctrine of total depravity insists that humanity cannot respond in faith to God or His overtures because of their complete spiritual depravity. Humanity possesses no "sense" (sensation) of God at all, nor can such be developed without God's direct intervention. The direct intervention of God in this matter is regeneration, enabling whom God has "elected" to respond in faith. Thus reformed theology holds that the response of faith is "given" by grace in regeneration.

The actions in salvation are "monergistic" by reformed theology, thus both the entreaty and response are governed solely by God; humanity must be regenerated in order to respond in faith.

Clearly, saving faith is synergistic. Doctrine-Mocktrine. The Word is pretty clear, and so is our experience. When doctrine derived from Scripture gets reasoned over excessively, human conclusions are drawn which end up not matching the Word. So, we have to constantly go back to the Scriptures, and let them speak freely, without the forced interpretations doctrine can place on things. We have to confirm that where we end up is still entirely consistent with Scripture and the authentic Christian experience shared by those who are being saved.

Matthew 21:32
For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Gee, I wonder why the Pharisees didn't get saved. Oh, didn't believe him. Belief is a response to the preaching of the Word.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Belief is needed, but an outward act in keeping with repentance is required in order to be saved, for living faith requires deeds. See James 2.

John 16:8
When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

But we are not getting to square one until the Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment to come, through the preaching of the Word.

1 Thessalonians 1:4-6
4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.

Not only did the Thess folk get saved via the conviction of the HS by the preaching of the Word, confirmed by the manifestations of the Sprit in their case, but their conviction was confessedly deep, and then they followed through and imitated Christian conduct, persevering in the face of suffering. Their faith was complete, because it was living faith, hope, belief unto action.

I don't have time to quote all the Scripture. But I believe the order is something like this:

1. Calling by the Word and His Spirit, resulting in
2. Conviction, which is the first stage of belief (Fear of the Lord), resulting in
3. Seeking and Calling on the Name of the Lord, resulting in
4. Hope in Christ for Salvation, resulting in
5. Repentance Acts in Keeping with Repentance, including baptism, resulting in
6. Living Faith, which is the moment of regeneration, being born again, resulting in
7. Growing Love for God expressed in perseverance in self purification and multiplied good deeds in Christ, resulting in
8. Growth of Character into that of Christ and great rewards in eternal life

So far as analyzing regeneration itself:

"The regeneration" is the "First Resurrection" of Rev 20, and is not the same as the regeneration done by the Spirit which sanctifies us and gives life to our spirit. Distinguish these two uses:

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration [Paliggenesia] when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Titus 3:
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration [Paliggenesia] and renewing [Anakainosis]by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

We are sanctified by the Spirit both positionally in Christ, with our salvation and inheritance and rewards saved in heaven for us, and practically by the Spirit. The first is synergistic to the extent we must respond in the 8 steps above. The second is synergistic in that we must cooperate with the Spirit, but be proactive, that we would purify ourselves from all defilement and develop the Character of Christ, as in 2 Pe 1.

In this sense, the regeneration associated iwth the firswt resurrection is positional, and the regneration associated with the renewal of the spirit of man within him is practical, and experienced in this lifetime for the born again person.

Note that the 8 steps often happen in close proximity to each other, though for some they can get stretched out in some ways. This is why many are on the path but stray from it and so are not saved. As the path gets more difficult, they fall away, permanently. Those who fail to do what Jesus says certainly are not saved. For they build their house upon the sand. They are not regenerate, nor born again. They don't have living faith. They are not being saved. And those who set their hand to the plow and look back are not fit for the kingdom of God. indeed, those who don't count the cost won't be able to finish.

God bless.

[Gadgeteer]

Clearly, saving faith is synergistic. Doctrine-Mocktrine. The Word is pretty clear, and so is our experience.

Not in "Reformed Theology". Regeneration happens to an unbeliever (in that doctrine), and then faith either follows irresistibly, or is a sovereign gift BY God TO the "few-elect". ("Gifted faith" thought to be in passages like Eph2:8 and 2Tim2:25.)

Regeneration is thought to necessarily be "monergistic", because the "T" in TULIP does not just mean "total depravity", it means "total inability". Reformed Theologians say, "Men are not drowning in a sea of sin, they are spiritual CORPSES and cannot take hold of the life-ring until they are first made alive."

Ironically, Reformed Theologians admit that "made-alive/have-life" cannot exist apart from "regeneration" (no one can be regenerated without being made-alive, nor can they have life without regeneration) --- but "have-life" comes AFTER belief in Scripture (Jn20:31, Jn5:40). No RT person has ever credibly answered this.

When doctrine derived from Scripture gets reasoned over excessively, human conclusions are drawn which end up not matching the Word. So, we have to constantly go back to the Scriptures, and let them speak freely, without the forced interpretations doctrine can place on things. We have to confirm that where we end up is still entirely consistent with Scripture and the authentic Christian experience shared by those who are being saved.

Let's examine some of those "unmatched Scriptures". In Matt9:12-13, Jesus did not come for the righteous/healthy, but for the sick/sinners. How does "regeneration" fit in? If regeneration is monergistic, then it has nothing to do with Jesus' coming; He did not come for the unregenerated who cannot respond, nor did He come for the regenerated who are therefore righteous already and also don't need Him.

So what's the connection between Jesus' "coming", and "regeneration"? If Jesus really did come for the sinners/unregenerate, who then can believe and be saved, it fits perfectly. I don't see any fit for Matt9:12-13 and monergistic regeneration.

Titus3:5-6 says the washing of regeneration is by the Spirit who was poured on us through Jesus our Savior. What does he mean by "poured"? Are we regenerated by the POURED Spirit? Or are we regenerated and THEN the Spirit is "poured"? Context supports "regenerated by the Spirit-who-WAS-POURED-through-Jesus-OUR-SAVIOR". The same word "ekcheo-poured" is in Acts10:45-47 --- where "poured" is "received", and in Acts11:17 "received" is after belief. So that fits too --- if regeneration is by the POURED Spirit, that denotes belief --- AS the Spirit is poured/received, He brings regeneration.

Gee, I wonder why the Pharisees didn't get saved. Oh, didn't believe him. Belief is a response to the preaching of the Word.

Not necessarily; though "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word" (Rm10:17), one can also believe by studying the written word. Contrast 2Tim3:15 (where some study Scriptures and gain wisdom [conviction] that leads to saving faith in Jesus), with Jn5:39-47 (where others study Scriptures but REFUSE to come to Jesus to have life). Why did those in Jn5 refuse? Because they sought their own glory rather than God's, because they refused to believe Moses, but mostly because they did not love God.

The command to love God (Matt22:37) is a command expressed as if men CAN obey it.

Belief is needed, but an outward act in keeping with repentance is required in order to be saved, for living faith requires deeds. See James 2.

Well, cause-and-effect is important; James does not conflict the idea that true saved faith WILL produce good works. That fits Jesus' words in Matt7:16-18.

But we are not getting to square one until the Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment to come, through the preaching of the Word.

But such conviction by the Spirit can be resisted. Acts7:51. We must believe Jesus' words in Jn3:20-21, that those WHO desire righteousness come to Jesus, but those WHO desire sin avoid Him.

Not only did the Thess folk get saved via the conviction of the HS by the preaching of the Word, confirmed by the manifestations of the Spirit in their case, but their conviction was confessedly deep, and then they followed through and imitated Christian conduct, persevering in the face of suffering. Their faith was complete, because it was living faith, hope, belief unto action.

Amen.

I don't have time to quote all the Scripture. But I believe the order is something like this:

1. Calling by the Word and His Spirit, resulting in
2. Conviction, which is the first stage of belief (Fear of the Lord), resulting in
3. Seeking and Calling on the Name of the Lord, resulting in
4. Hope in Christ for Salvation, resulting in
5. Repentance Acts in Keeping with Repentance, including baptism, resulting in
6. Living Faith, which is the moment of regeneration, being born again, resulting in
7. Growing Love for God expressed in perseverance in self purification and multiplied good deeds in Christ, resulting in
8. Growth of Character into that of Christ and great rewards in eternal life

Okay --- recognize that under "Reformed Theology", atonement is LIMITED. That means not everyone is called (or, not everyone is called effectively). The opposition to this is in passages like Deut30:11-20 (where verse 12 is a foundational refutation of "mongergistic regeneration"!), and the connected passages Rom10:6-10, and Acts17:26-31. Clearly the word-of-faith is in EVERYONE'S heart and mouth, each can confess and believe and be saved, or can turn away disobey and perish. The message is not too difficult or too far from anyone, God determined men's places and times such that each COULD seek and perhaps find Him (though He's not far from anyone!), and God commands all men everywhere to repent.

Recognize the previous paragraph overturns "total inability". And not by the Reformed Theology's claim of "Pelagianism" (or Semi-Pelagianism), but by the reality that ALL men are truly and effectively called to salvation, and each must make a choice. It is as Paul said in Rm2, God's kindness LEADS to repentance, but stubborn unrepentance stores up wrath for themselves.

Matt22:2-14 also opposes "limited atonement"; it does teach the idea of "Jews then Gentiles" --- but by story's end, everyone they found was invited ("many are called") and everyone who CAME and changed into clean clothes became chosen/elect/saved ("...but few are chosen").

So far as analyzing regeneration itself:

"The regeneration" is the "First Resurrection" of Rev 20,

I disagree; we are regenerated long before the First Resurrection. But only regenerated people are IN that First Resurrection.

and is not the same as the regeneration done by the Spirit which sanctifies us and gives life to our spirit.

I don't understand how you make this connection.

Distinguish these two uses:

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration [Paliggenesia] when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Titus 3:
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration [Paliggenesia] and renewing [Anakainosis]by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

We are sanctified by the Spirit both positionally in Christ, with our salvation and inheritance and rewards saved in heaven for us, and practically by the Spirit. The first is synergistic to the extent we must respond in the 8 steps above. The second is synergistic in that we must cooperate with the Spirit, but be proactive, that we would purify ourselves from all defilement and develop the Character of Christ, as in 2 Pe 1.

What if "regeneration" is not a one time event, but rather something that must be abided in, as we abide in Christ? That's the only way I perceive Eph4:22-24 can be understood; lay aside the old sinful man, but on the new (regenerated) man, BE RENEWED in the spirit of your mind. Be regenerated --- the only thing it could mean.

BE --- daily! The same as "be filled with the Spirit" (Eph5:18), and "be reconciled to God" (2Cor5:20).

In this sense, the regeneration associated with the first resurrection is positional, and the regeneration associated with the renewal of the spirit of man within him is practical, and experienced in this lifetime for the born again person.

I don't see two regenerations, Eyelog.

Note that the 8 steps often happen in close proximity to each other, though for some they can get stretched out in some ways. This is why many are on the path but stray from it and so are not saved. As the path gets more difficult, they fall away, permanently. Those who fail to do what Jesus says certainly are not saved. For they build their house upon the sand. They are not regenerate, nor born again. They don't have living faith. They are not being saved. And those who set their hand to the plow and look back are not fit for the kingdom of God. indeed, those who don't count the cost won't be able to finish.

What do you think about what I just said regarding Eph4:22-24? If "be regenerated" is the theme, then isn't regeneration something that must be abided-in?

[Eyelog]

Not in "Reformed Theology". Regeneration happens to an unbeliever (in that doctrine), and then faith either follows irresistibly, or is a sovereign gift BY God TO the "few-elect". ("Gifted faith" thought to be in passages like Eph2:8 and 2Tim2:25.)

Regeneration is thought to necessarily be "monergistic", because the "T" in TULIP does not just mean "total depravity", it means "total inability". Reformed Theologians say, "Men are not drowning in a sea of sin, they are spiritual CORPSES and cannot take hold of the life-ring until they are first made alive."

Ironically, Reformed Theologians admit that "made-alive/have-life" cannot exist apart from "regeneration" (no one can be regenerated without being made-alive, nor can they have life without regeneration) --- but "have-life" comes AFTER belief in Scripture (Jn20:31, Jn5:40). No RT person has ever credibly answered this.
Let's examine some of those "unmatched Scriptures". In Matt9:12-13, Jesus did not come for the righteous/healthy, but for the sick/sinners. How does "regeneration" fit in? If regeneration is monergistic, then it has nothing to do with Jesus' coming; He did not come for the unregenerated who cannot respond, nor did He come for the regenerated who are therefore righteous already and also don't need Him.

So what's the connection between Jesus' "coming", and "regeneration"? If Jesus really did come for the sinners/unregenerate, who then can believe and be saved, it fits perfectly. I don't see any fit for Matt9:12-13 and monergistic regeneration.

Titus3:5-6 says the washing of regeneration is by the Spirit who was poured on us through Jesus our Savior. What does he mean by "poured"? Are we regenerated by the POURED Spirit? Or are we regenerated and THEN the Spirit is "poured"? Context supports "regenerated by the Spirit-who-WAS-POURED-through-Jesus-OUR-SAVIOR". The same word "ekcheo-poured" is in Acts10:45-47 --- where "poured" is "received", and in Acts11:17 "received" is after belief. So that fits too --- if regeneration is by the POURED Spirit, that denotes belief --- AS the Spirit is poured/received, He brings regeneration.
Not necessarily; though "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word" (Rm10:17), one can also believe by studying the written word. Contrast 2Tim3:15 (where some study Scriptures and gain wisdom [conviction] that leads to saving faith in Jesus), with Jn5:39-47 (where others study Scriptures but REFUSE to come to Jesus to have life). Why did those in Jn5 refuse? Because they sought their own glory rather than God's, because they refused to believe Moses, but mostly because they did not love God.

The command to love God (Matt22:37) is a command expressed as if men CAN obey it.
Well, cause-and-effect is important; James does not conflict the idea that true saved faith WILL produce good works. That fits Jesus' words in Matt7:16-18.
But such conviction by the Spirit can be resisted. Acts7:51. We must believe Jesus' words in Jn3:20-21, that those WHO desire righteousness come to Jesus, but those WHO desire sin avoid Him.
Amen.
Okay --- recognize that under "Reformed Theology", atonement is LIMITED. That means not everyone is called (or, not everyone is called effectively). The opposition to this is in passages like Deut30:11-20 (where verse 12 is a foundational refutation of "mongergistic regeneration"!), and the connected passages Rom10:6-10, and Acts17:26-31. Clearly the word-of-faith is in EVERYONE'S heart and mouth, each can confess and believe and be saved, or can turn away disobey and perish. The message is not too difficult or too far from anyone, God determined men's places and times such that each COULD seek and perhaps find Him (though He's not far from anyone!), and God commands all men everywhere to repent.

Recognize the previous paragraph overturns "total inability". And not by the Reformed Theology's claim of "Pelagianism" (or Semi-Pelagianism), but by the reality that ALL men are truly and effectively called to salvation, and each must make a choice. It is as Paul said in Rm2, God's kindness LEADS to repentance, but stubborn unrepentance stores up wrath for themselves.

Matt22:2-14 also opposes "limited atonement"; it does teach the idea of "Jews then Gentiles" --- but by story's end, everyone they found was invited ("many are called") and everyone who CAME and changed into clean clothes became chosen/elect/saved ("...but few are chosen").
I disagree; we are regenerated long before the First Resurrection. But only regenerated people are IN that First Resurrection. I don't understand how you make this connection. What if "regeneration" is not a one time event, but rather something that must be abided in, as we abide in Christ? That's the only way I perceive Eph4:22-24 can be understood; lay aside the old sinful man, but on the new (regenerated) man, BE RENEWED in the spirit of your mind. Be regenerated --- the only thing it could mean.

BE --- daily! The same as "be filled with the Spirit" (Eph5:18), and "be reconciled to God" (2Cor5:20).

I don't see two regenerations, Eyelog.
What do you think about what I just said regarding Eph4:22-24? If "be regenerated" is the theme, then isn't regeneration something that must be abided-in?

Hi, Gadge. Thanks for checking out my post over here.

I am not surprised to see that what I had to say brought out some differences between us. But I must say I think you explained very nicely my retorts, and round rejection, of the so-called reformed monergism advocated by others.

I see we still disagree that works/fruit of faith are essential to a saving faith.

So far as the topic of regeneration, i can't tell if you disagree or my explanation was just too unclear.

You say you disagree that in the context of Matthew 19:28, Jesus' reference to "the" regeneration is not what is termed the "first resurrection" in Rev 20? Well, if after reading it again you still disagree, you will have to explain why.

So far as the regeneration described in Titus 3:5, I see these references to be, not something we participate in whenever, but as a progressive sanctification carried on during the life of the born again individual. i think we differ in that you see sanctification and regeneration as a sort of finished condition you more or less participate in, moment to moment, while I see it, not as a finsihed condition, but a progressively complete condition, and not one that is only momentary, but one which refelcts a development of more or less permanent and lasting character. In fact, I believe that the character we have at the point of death or rapture will be the character we will have in eternity, with the exception that what is not part of the new nature will not survive into eternity. God will take the good, and jettison the bad -- more specifically, it will be burnt up. So, in eternity future, we will differ greatly with each other (not meaning you and i, necessarily, but believers in general.). Some will have greater character, some will have greater roles, and some will have greater treasure in heaven, all based on the character, spiritual ability and fruit developed during this lifetime.

Finally, so far as this Eph 4 putting off and on stuff, I would agree that it can be only temporary, or momentary. However, I don't think it is Paul's intention that we lay aside and put on only superfically. I believe he is referring to the heart change and outward conduct consistent with such a repentance which we must altruistically seek to make part of our character. See Romans 5 and 2 Pet er 1, for starters.

[glad4mercy]

Hi, Gadge. Thanks for checking out my post over here.

I am not surprised to see that what I had to say brought out some differences between us. But I must say I think you explained very nicely my retorts, and round rejection, of the so-called reformed monergism advocated by others.

I see we still disagree that works/fruit of faith are essential to a saving faith.

So far as the topic of regeneration, i can't tell if you disagree or my explanation was just too unclear.

You say you disagree that in the context of Matthew 19:28, Jesus' reference to "the" regeneration is not what is termed the "first resurrection" in Rev 20? Well, if after reading it again you still disagree, you will have to explain why.

So far as the regeneration described in Titus 3:5, I see these references to be, not something we participate in whenever, but as a progressive sanctification carried on during the life of the born again individual. i think we differ in that you see sanctification and regeneration as a sort of finished condition you more or less participate in, moment to moment, while I see it, not as a finsihed condition, but a progressively complete condition, and not one that is only momentary, but one which refelcts a development of more or less permanent and lasting character. In fact, I believe that the character we have at the point of death or rapture will be the character we will have in eternity, with the exception that what is not part of the new nature will not survive into eternity. God will take the good, and jettison the bad -- more specifically, it will be burnt up. So, in eternity future, we will differ greatly with each other (not meaning you and i, necessarily, but believers in general.). Some will have greater character, some will have greater roles, and some will have greater treasure in heaven, all based on the character, spiritual ability and fruit developed during this lifetime.

Finally, so far as this Eph 4 putting off and on stuff, I would agree that it can be only temporary, or momentary. However, I don't think it is Paul's intention that we lay aside and put on only superfically. I believe he is referring to the heart change and outward conduct consistent with such a repentance which we must altruistically seek to make part of our character. See Romans 5 and 2 Pet er 1, for starters.

Regeneration occurs when we hear the Gospel, are convicted by the Holy Spirit, repent towards God, trust in Jesus, and come to Him, calling upon His Name. At that time we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, are born from above, and become children of God.

Just as I am, without one plea. But that Thy Blood was shed for me.
and that you bid me to come to Thee, O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Glory to God!

[Boo]

Clearly, saving faith is synergistic. Doctrine-Mocktrine. The Word is pretty clear, and so is our experience. When doctrine derived from Scripture gets reasoned over excessively, human conclusions are drawn which end up not matching the Word. So, we have to constantly go back to the Scriptures, and let them speak freely, without the forced interpretations doctrine can place on things. We have to confirm that where we end up is still entirely consistent with Scripture and the authentic Christian experience shared by those who are being saved.

<snip>

1. Calling by the Word and His Spirit, resulting in
2. Conviction, which is the first stage of belief (Fear of the Lord), resulting in
3. Seeking and Calling on the Name of the Lord, resulting in
4. Hope in Christ for Salvation, resulting in
5. Repentance Acts in Keeping with Repentance, including baptism, resulting in
6. Living Faith, which is the moment of regeneration, being born again, resulting in
7. Growing Love for God expressed in perseverance in self purification and multiplied good deeds in Christ, resulting in
8. Growth of Character into that of Christ and great rewards in eternal life

<snip>

Note that the 8 steps often happen in close proximity to each other, though for some they can get stretched out in some ways. This is why many are on the path but stray from it and so are not saved. As the path gets more difficult, they fall away, permanently. Those who fail to do what Jesus says certainly are not saved. For they build their house upon the sand. They are not regenerate, nor born again. They don't have living faith. They are not being saved. And those who set their hand to the plow and look back are not fit for the kingdom of God. indeed, those who don't count the cost won't be able to finish.

God bless.

I do believe that your view fits scripture better than what most people currently understand. Many people I speak to can quote denominational doctrine but not scripture. I am not one to claim who did or did not get saved when they fail to follow all the steps God gave us in order, as I think God knows that many people have been misled and have done what they have been told that they are supposed to do. At any rate, that is for God to sort out and not me.

I'll probably never know why man wants to pick apart God's instruction and determine what "the minimum requirements to enter heaven" are.

If people ask me, I tell them exactly what scripture says.

[mailmandan]

I believe that faith and regeneration take place in the same moment of time. One is the response of a lost, sinful man to the gospel; the other is the supernatural work of God. I certainly don't believe that regeneration precedes faith. I believe that no one can believe on Christ apart from God’s gracious working in the heart which involves both drawing and enabling (John 6:44,65) yet this does not equate to regeneration. Man’s first birth is natural; his second birth is spiritual and supernatural. His first birth gives him a sinful nature (Ephesians 2:3); his second birth makes him partaker of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).

[Gadgeteer]

I believe that faith and regeneration take place in the same moment of time. One is the response of a lost, sinful man to the gospel; the other is the supernatural work of God. I certainly don't believe that regeneration precedes faith.

Calvinists (Reformed Theologians) agree that "faith" and "regeneration" coexist, and happen almost simultaneously. But Scripture asserts that belief must precede regeneration --- as John words it in 20:31, "...and believing, you may have life in His name". Having-life is inseparable from regeneration; therefore one has to believe, turn to God, and receive the Spirit and regeneration. Grace comes first and is not limited --- 1Tim4:10 says He is the Savior of all men (grace to every person), malista/above-all believers (grace received by faith, Rm5:17).

I believe that no one can believe on Christ apart from God’s gracious working in the heart which involves both drawing and enabling (John 6:44,65) yet this does not equate to regeneration.

Well, true (we must be helkuo-drawn, Jn6:44). But all men are helkuo-drawn (Jn12:32), and Jesus is answering the Jews' complaint in verse 42:

"Do we not know Jesus' father and mother? How does He say 'I've come down from Heaven'?!"
"Don't grumble; no one comes to Me unless drawn by the Father" (those who come, are authorized by God; _I_ am authorized)

Man’s first birth is natural; his second birth is spiritual and supernatural. His first birth gives him a sinful nature (Ephesians 2:3); his second birth makes him partaker of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).

The problem with monergistic regeneration (which supposedly happens BEFORE belief), is that it allows no room for persuasion. In Acts26:28-30 Paul is trying to persuade king Agrippa. John's statement in 20:31 that we just read is trying to persuade the reader. The whole concept of "believe-because-of-seeing" (Jn20:29, Jn10:38, the rebuke of Matt11:21-23) is persuasion. And persuasion is useless if regeneration is monergistic and prior to belief. The "I" in TULIP is "irresistible grace" --- no room for persuasion, faith is unavoidable for the few whom God ordained/predestined. Clearly persuasion is the reason to preach the Gospel (see Rom10:14-17, 2Tim3:15, and how those in Jn5:39-47 refused to be persuaded).

So it's true that real saving-faith is followed necessarily and nearly simultaneously by regeneration --- but one must believe God is, before he comes to God (Heb11:6). If faith was sovereignly gifted by God to men, then faith would be fully simultaneous with regeneration; for both would be sovereign irresistible gifts of God.

[glad4mercy]

Calvinists (Reformed Theologians) agree that "faith" and "regeneration" coexist, and happen almost simultaneously. But Scripture asserts that belief must precede regeneration --- as John words it in 20:31, "...and believing, you may have life in His name".

Yes, but Regeneration happens instantaneously as soon as someone repents from the heart and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ! Also, it is the Spirit who convicts us of sin and convinces us of the truth.

Grace comes first and is not limited --- 1Tim4:10 says He is the Savior of all men (grace to every person), malista/above-all believers (grace received by faith, Rm5:17).

AMEN!! Yet this does not mean that all will be saved, it means that Jesus' death is sufficient to save anyone and everyone who wil come, and that Jesus died for all men. I am so thankful that Jesus said "...he who comes to me, I will in no wise cast out..." But coming to Him is much more than saying "Lord, Lord..."

Well, true (we must be helkuo-drawn, Jn6:44). But all men are helkuo-drawn (Jn12:32), and Jesus is answering the Jews' complaint in verse 42:

"Do we not know Jesus' father and mother? How does He say 'I've come down from Heaven'?!"
"Don't grumble; no one comes to Me unless drawn by the Father" (those who come, are authorized by God; _I_ am authorized)

Amen. Yet I believe that there is not only a general call, ( the preaching of the Gospel), there is also a particular call when the Spirit says "Come" to an individual. If not for the Spirit, the Gospel would fall on deaf ears and hardened hearts. I believe it is the Spirit that leads to repentance, breaking up the fallow ground so that the seed can take root. A heart untouched by God is rocky soil. A heart convicted and convinced by preceding grace is good soil. This is why our evangelism and witness must be accompanied by fervent prayer. One plants, one waters, but God gives the increase.

The problem with monergistic regeneration (which supposedly happens BEFORE belief), is that it allows no room for persuasion. In Acts26:28-30 Paul is trying to persuade king Agrippa. John's statement in 20:31 that we just read is trying to persuade the reader. The whole concept of "believe-because-of-seeing" (Jn20:29, Jn10:38, the rebuke of Matt11:21-23) is persuasion. And persuasion is useless if regeneration is monergistic and prior to belief.

Very true, and persuasion that saves comes not by human wisdom or ingenuity alone, it comes when the Gospel is preached in the power of God.

1 Thessalonians 1:5- For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

If faith was sovereignly gifted by God to men, then faith would be fully simultaneous with regeneration; for both would be sovereign irresistible gifts of God.

Yes, grace is resistable. It is resistable not only by unsaved people who resist God's Grace, it is also resistable by people who may have been born again, but went astray or did not give God full reign in their life. I never want to resist God's Grace again.

[watchinginawe]

Clearly, saving faith is synergistic. Doctrine-Mocktrine. The Word is pretty clear, and so is our experience. When doctrine derived from Scripture gets reasoned over excessively, human conclusions are drawn which end up not matching the Word. So, we have to constantly go back to the Scriptures, and let them speak freely, without the forced interpretations doctrine can place on things. We have to confirm that where we end up is still entirely consistent with Scripture and the authentic Christian experience shared by those who are being saved.

I agree. One of the arguments I find compelling against orthodox Reformed Theology is the absence of consequence with regards to wrong doctrine and/or deception. The warnings against such in Scripture are largely marginalized in reformed theology; interpreted more as temporal prods towards perseverance as opposed to potential eternal consequence.