When does regeneration takes place?

[Boo]

What does "backslider" mean? Is there such a thing as "backslidden-but-saved"?

First off, there really is no past-tense to save. None of us are actually "saved" until we die.

To some, backsliders are "lukewarm Christians." Jesus doesn't care much for them. That is not a status one should aspire to maintain.

[Boo]

You tell me. Is there a such thing as a saved, then unsaved, then saved again? ( I am speaking of regeneration). If a person backslides, does the Holy Spirit leave them and then come back when they rededicate their life to the Lord. Did a person who backslid at a point in their life go from being a child of God to not being a child of God to being a child of God again?


a. Is a person disqualified the first time he backslides? Is there no repentance for him/her

or

b. Is a repentant backslider regenerated a second time?

or

c. Is a repentant backslider restored to fellowship with the Father who welcomes His wayward son home with open arms?

I choose "C". Which do you choose?

If a person backslides, God will first convict, then chasten. If they come back, God forgives. If they don't repent, that's another story. If they die in their backslidden condition, there is nothing in the Bible that says that they will enter the Kingdom, in fact the Bible is clear that no adulterer, fornicator, liar, idolater, etc will inherit the Kingdom of God.

If they keep going back and forth, wavering between sin and righteousness, faith and unbelief, they are unstable in all their ways.

Yet a repentant backslider who sincerely returns to the Lord to stay is welcomed with open arms. I was a prodigal son.

This is not a provisional license for backsliding. Anyone who is backslidden and chooses to stay in that condition is not right with God, and if they die in that condition they will be judged for their unfaithfullness. Yet some have backslidden and came back to God. I am one. When I returned to the Lord, I didnt have to receive the Holy Spirit all over again. He was there all the time. I needed to remember from whence I had fallen, repent, and do the first works again. I needed to return to the Lord. Yet it was not a second regeneration. Why do you think the apostle says "do not quench the Holy Spirit, do not grieve the Holy Spirit who has sealed you, and do not defile the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Actually, when I think of it in this way, backsliding is far more distasteful to me. Can you guess the reason why?

As far as the term "backslidden but saved" , I do not care for it. I would not use such a term. My assertion would be that there is only one regeneration. A backslider doesnt need a second regeneration, they need restoration and healing. The scriptures say " I will heal your backslidings".

Return Backsliding children for you have fallen by your sins
Your iniquities have hid his face from you.

Return backsliding children for His love will not fail.
His love has forever torn the veil.
Return.

A backslider can be restored.

Galatians 6:1- Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

James 5: 19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Yet Hebrews 10 shows that we cannot sin, ( present tense) willfully and expect to get by. We must repent. Except we repent, we will all likewise perish.

Yessir, we are in agreement here.

[GaryMac]

I don't see where we have the "same identity". Jesus was fully divine (Col2:9); eternal from both directions of time. There is a subtlety that has crept into some Christian circles, called "New Age" --- the thought that "God is all and all is God, therefore part of you is DIVINE." I guarantee no part of me is divine, never will be.
We are indwelt by a divine person (persons --- the Spirit and the Son); I don't think Jesus was indwelt in the same way. He is one person of a triune God.
I see "born-again" to be the same as "born-from-above", and "begotten-children-of-God", and "become-adopted-children". Do you agree?
It's definitely a union, but He does not become us and we don't become Him.

We are invited behind the veil, that tore the moment Jesus died; into the very presence of Almighty God, to fellowship with Him there. He delights in our presence, His thoughts of us outnumber the grains of sand. :-)

Behind that vale is the mercy seat, the place where God and man come together as one. Let this same Spirit be in you who was in Christ Jesus, let this same mind be in you who was in Christ Jesus have the mind of Christ.

That vale is removed with the revelation of the Christ, Christ in you. To say that you cant have what Jesus had in the same way as he had is to deny Gods way for you. God sent Jesus to show us His way for us and His way for us is Jesus Christ to be one with the Father as he was one with Him, John 17.

[GaryMac]

Yes, lets consider him.

Jesus had not yet died and resurrected. The New Covenant was not yet completed. The old coverenant was still in effect. Jesus had authority to grant salvation personally while he yet lived in the flesh.

Actually the new covenant started in Adam, 1 Cor 15, the first man Adam was of flesh, the second man Adam was of Spirit, born again. This wasnt new with the event of Jesus, Jesus came to show you a better way of understabding this process. Adam went through this regeneration, Abraham did, Moses did, and even heaven was opend to Jesus in Matt 3:16. This is very old age knowledge.

[GaryMac]

See my post before this one.

I guess people don't keep up with what is stated in threads. I will answer this one yet again, though.

After one is baptized, he or she becomes a child of God. Scripture tells us in a couple places that God does not hear the prayers of sinners. After recieving Jesus, one is no longer just a "sinner." A person is then a child of the Living God. A child of God can pray and expect God to hear.

There is no need for a child of the Living God to be baptized once again. However, if a person was baptized before belief and repentence, all they did was get wet.

Depends on who does the baptizing, by man or by God. John made Jesus wet, but God made him like Him.

[Gadgeteer]

You tell me. Is there a such thing as a saved, then unsaved, then saved again? ( I am speaking of regeneration). If a person backslides, does the Holy Spirit leave them and then come back when they rededicate their life to the Lord. Did a person who backslid at a point in their life go from being a child of God to not being a child of God to being a child of God again?


a. Is a person disqualified the first time he backslides? Is there no repentance for him/her

or

b. Is a repentant backslider regenerated a second time?

or

c. Is a repentant backslider restored to fellowship with the Father who welcomes His wayward son home with open arms?

I choose "C". Which do you choose?

Which I choose is not at issue, "Glad" --- I was curious as to how others perceive Scripture. When you say "Father-welcome-son-home-with-open-arms", that's obviously referring to the Prodigal, in Luke18 --- perfect reference.

Some people say, "If one WANDERS from the faith, he was never TRULY saved in the FIRST place".
Others say, "The Prodigal never ceased being his father's SON, did he? He stayed saved!"
Still others say, "The Father PRESERVES His own, He makes sure anyone who wanders, RETURNS".

In Luke15:13 the Prodigal was drunk, carousing, harlotting; per 1Cor6:9-11 and Eph5:5 and Gal5:19-21 (and 1Jn3:5-10), such a person cannot expect admittance into eternal life. But can we say he was NEVER TRULY saved? The father said "was dead now is alive AGAIN". How can one be alive again, if he was never alive before? And in Jesus' story the father never went after the son; it was the son who came to his senses and returned. "Come-to-senses" is also prominent in 2Tim2:25-26.

If a person backslides, God will first convict, then chasten.

"Will"? Or "may"? What does everyone think of Hebrews12:7-9 --- is there any way that's not speaking of "ceasing-to-be-born-again"?

If they come back, God forgives. If they don't repent, that's another story. If they die in their backslidden condition, there is nothing in the Bible that says that they will enter the Kingdom, in fact the Bible is clear that no adulterer, fornicator, liar, idolater, etc will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Very nice --- we think alike. "Backslidden", by definition, is "walk-in-sin". Because salvation is Christ-in-you, knowing the Father and the Son, he who walks in sin does not know God (1Jn3); by our deeds children of God and children of the devil are exposed --- he who practices sin (backslidden!) is of the devil.

If they keep going back and forth, wavering between sin and righteousness, faith and unbelief, they are unstable in all their ways.

Pragmatically true; but is "falling" a constant danger, and does James5:19-20 only apply once?

Yet a repentant backslider who sincerely returns to the Lord to stay is welcomed with open arms. I was a prodigal son.

All Heaven rejoices IF a sinner repents and a Prodigal returns.

This is not a provisional license for backsliding. Anyone who is backslidden and chooses to stay in that condition is not right with God, and if they die in that condition they will be judged for their unfaithfulness. Yet some have backslidden and came back to God. I am one. When I returned to the Lord, I didn't have to receive the Holy Spirit all over again. He was there all the time.

Are you sure? The Spirit will not participate in sin; he who turns back to sin (see Ezk18:24), cannot be said to "have always had the Spirit". Clearly the man in James5:20 received the Spirit again.

I needed to remember from whence I had fallen, repent, and do the first works again.

Nice --- Rev2:5 I think.

I needed to return to the Lord. Yet it was not a second regeneration. Why do you think the apostle says "do not quench the Holy Spirit, do not grieve the Holy Spirit who has sealed you, and do not defile the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Amen! A Spirit who is grieved (Eph4:30), who is insulted (Heb10:26-28), and who is resisted (Acts7:51), will not remain if the grieving/insulting/resisting continues.

Actually, when I think of it in this way, backsliding is far more distasteful to me. Can you guess the reason why?

Because you were "apart from Jesus"?

As far as the term "backslidden but saved" , I do not care for it. I would not use such a term. My assertion would be that there is only one regeneration. A backslider doesnt need a second regeneration, they need restoration and healing.

In Eph4:22-24, don't we need to abide-in-regeneration, daily?

The scriptures say " I will heal your backslidings".

Where?

Return Backsliding children for you have fallen by your sins
Your iniquities have hid his face from you.

Return backsliding children for His love will not fail.
His love has forever torn the veil.
Return.

A backslider can be restored.

Galatians 6:1- Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

James 5: 19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

"IF he is led back" --- some refuse to come to their senses and return. Those who come to their senses and repent, it's worded as "God-grants-repentance" in 2Tim2; but it's not God doing anything but receiving repentance FROM those who came to their senses and returned.

Yet Hebrews 10 shows that we cannot sin, (present tense) willfully and expect to get by. We must repent. Except we repent, we will all likewise perish.

VERY excellent post --- well done!

Some people say, "If one WANDERS from the faith, he was never TRULY saved in the FIRST place".
Others say, "The Prodigal never ceased being his father's SON, did he? He stayed saved!"
Still others say, "The Father PRESERVES His own, He makes sure anyone who wanders, RETURNS".

Do these matter? Yes. They color our walk, and decide our perspective. Are we ever at risk? Verses like 1Cor10:13, 2Cor11:3, 2Pet3:17, Col2:6-8 say "yes". If we back-slide, is our eternal life compromised? To say "no" is to embrace Gnosticism/Antinomianism. Cannot be. Does God 100% keep us by His sovereign action in preserving us? Verses like 1Tim4:16 and 2Pet1:5-11 teach the opposite. I'm not actually typing out these verses, hope readers look them up to see if what I say is Scriptural or not.

What is eternal life to us? Where are we standing?

Where will we be tomorrow? Are these important questions?

[glad4mercy]

Gadgeteer, good post in 351. We are largely in agreement.

Which I choose is not at issue, "Glad" --- I was curious as to how others perceive Scripture. When you say "Father-welcome-son-home-with-open-arms", that's obviously referring to the Prodigal, in Luke18 --- perfect reference.

The experience of the prodigal is my experience as well.

Some people say, "If one WANDERS from the faith, he was never TRULY saved in the FIRST place".

James 5:19-20 and other scriptures refute this assumption, IMO.

Others say, "The Prodigal never ceased being his father's SON, did he? He stayed saved!"

Does the father instantly disown his child when the child begins erring, or does He first try to correct Him. The Father first trys to correct us. If we continue in rebellion, then we have neglected so great a salvation, and there remains no longer a sacrifice for sin, but a fearful anticipation of judgement. If we repent, God restores us.

Secondly, God is longsuffering toward us, He does not snuff a flickering candle or bruise the weak reed. Yet we dare not presume on His mercy and longsuffering.

Still others say, "The Father PRESERVES His own, He makes sure anyone who wanders, RETURNS".

Well, I do believe the Shepherd will seek the sheep that have gone astray, and I do believe He forgives the repentant. Yet it is the height of folly and wickedness to act presumptuously in the face of that Grace.

"Will"? Or "may"? What does everyone think of Hebrews12:7-9 --- is there any way that's not speaking of "ceasing-to-be-born-again"?

Are you sure the passage is Hebrews 12:7-9? That passage is speaking of God's chastening of His children. Nevertheless, in answer to your question, I think that ceasing to be born again would constitute apostasy, of which the writer of Hebrews says this...

Hebrews 6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

These passages are not talking about backsliding, they are speaking of apostasy. If one ceases to be born again, I am not sure there is the possibility of a second regeneration for such. Though I may be wrong, and I would not want to be dogmatically wrong in an issue such as this.

Very nice --- we think alike. "Backslidden", by definition, is "walk-in-sin". Because salvation is Christ-in-you, knowing the Father and the Son, he who walks in sin does not know God (1Jn3); by our deeds children of God and children of the devil are exposed --- he who practices sin (backslidden!) is of the devil.

I can agree with this, but then you have a situation where certain people are of God then of the devil, then of God again. Yet are they adopted, disowned, then adopted again? Do you think God operates in this manner? This is a sincere question and not rhetorical.

Pragmatically true; but is "falling" a constant danger, and does James5:19-20 only apply once?

Yes to the first question and no to the second, ( although it should be yes, for to repeatedly err from the truth is beyond tragic)

Are you sure? The Spirit will not participate in sin; he who turns back to sin (see Ezk18:24), cannot be said to "have always had the Spirit". Clearly the man in James5:20 received the Spirit again.

What you are saying ammounts to multiple regenerations. If there is only one baptism of the Spirit, how can we be regenerated more than once? Or do you believe in multiple Spirit baptisms?

Amen! A Spirit who is grieved (Eph4:30), who is insulted (Heb10:26-28), and who is resisted (Acts7:51), will not remain if the grieving/insulting/resisting continues.

I agree, the key word here being "continues"

The scriptures say " I will heal your backslidings".
Where?

Jeremiah 3:22- Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

IF he is led back" --- some refuse to come to their senses and return. Those who come to their senses and repent, it's worded as "God-grants-repentance" in 2Tim2; but it's not God doing anything but receiving repentance FROM those who came to their senses and returned.

I agree. I do not think that a backslider has to wait to be invited to return to the Lord. When I was backslidden, I fell into this error, because even though I would not say so out loud, in my heart of hearts I believed in repeated regenerations, and I thought I had to be born again all over again. When I realized that all the means of Grace were still there for me, including the Priestly intercession of Christ, and I needed but to come to my senses and return to the Lord, it made a world of difference.

Do these matter? Yes. They color our walk, and decide our perspective. Are we ever at risk? Verses like 1Cor10:13, 2Cor11:3, 2Pet3:17, Col2:6-8 say "yes". If we back-slide, is our eternal life compromised? To say "no" is to embrace Gnosticism/Antinomianism. Cannot be. Does God 100% keep us by His sovereign action in preserving us? Verses like 1Tim4:16 and 2Pet1:5-11 teach the opposite. I'm not actually typing out these verses, hope readers look them up to see if what I say is Scriptural or not.

Regarding your red letter list of propositions and antinomianism\Gnosticism:

I do not see how the first statement embraces antinomianism, seeing it is saying that a person who is lawless is not and never was saved. This in spite of the fact that I moderately disagree with this statement, for I do believe it is possible for a regenerate person to degenerate into lawlessness, if they cease to abide.

The second statement in your red letter list is true if the prodigal returns. If the prodigal does not return, he will find himself with the goats on judgement day. Matthew 24: 48-51

The only problem with the third statement is that it makes grace irresistable for the backslider, and I do not see this taught in the scripture.

What is eternal life to us? Where are we standing?

He who has the Son has life. He who does not have the Son has not life.

Where will we be tomorrow?

Kept by the power of God through faith is where I expect to be.

[GaryMac]

Regeneration isn’t where we get on our knees and build a spiritual kingdom in which we can sit in a pew, shed a tear from emotion, and retire in Eden with a select set of bylaws to dictate a belief! We are here to do the work of the Father who by reconciliation has brought us back into His state of our being originally designed for us. And my goal is not for an end product where I retire in the luxury of heaven but my goal is God Himself that I may obtain His blessings in righteousness in me where I measure my life with the standard set by God Himself through His standard for me who is Jesus Christ my Lord.

Substandard is the way of law where one judges his life according to the flesh in carnality and sin which dictates a standard for his god and sets Jesus on a pinnacle so high where he cant be related to instead of walking in His standard for us to walk in His same light.

Jesus cast himself down from that pinnacle where man sets a standard so high for him that we cant make personal identity or relate to him at all; and where he is known only by name of letter of the law. He cast himself down from that mentality to walk among the common which is you and I, He in you and you in Him as one where Christ in you is regenerated -- come to life in you.

[glad4mercy]

Regeneration isn’t where we get on our knees and build a spiritual kingdom in which we can sit in a pew, shed a tear from emotion, and retire in Eden with a select set of bylaws to dictate a belief! We are here to do the work of the Father who by reconciliation has brought us back into His state of our being originally designed for usAnd my goal is not for an end product where I retire in the luxury of heaven but my goal is God Himself that I may obtain His blessings in righteousness in me where I measure my life with the standard set by God Himself through His standard for me who is Jesus Christ my Lord.

Amen, I couldn't agree more.

Substandard is the way of law where one judges his life according to the flesh in carnality and sin

I agree.

which dictates a standard for his god and sets Jesus on a pinnacle so high where he cant be related to instead of walking in His standard for us to walk in His same light.

I agree that we need to walk as Jesus walked in this world, but I am not sure what you mean by the rest of this statement.

Jesus cast himself down from that pinnacle where man sets a standard so high for him that we cant make personal identity or relate to him at all; and where he is known only by name of letter of the law. He cast himself down from that mentality to walk among the common which is you and I, He in you and you in Him as one where Christ in you is regenerated -- come to life in you.

Amen, the realities of both the incarnation and Christ in us the hope of Glory are wondrous

[GaryMac]

To walk in the light as He is in the light is to see things as He sees things to have His same mind. the mind of Christ, think in terms He thinks in. His way isnt our way, we have to accept in us His way by His same Spirit be in us, Christ in you opens His mind, His heaven to us which brings understanding to Jesus commandment of be one with the Father as I am one with Him.

[John146]

You tell me. Is there a such thing as a saved, then unsaved, then saved again? ( I am speaking of regeneration). If a person backslides, does the Holy Spirit leave them and then come back when they rededicate their life to the Lord. Did a person who backslid at a point in their life go from being a child of God to not being a child of God to being a child of God again?


a. Is a person disqualified the first time he backslides? Is there no repentance for him/her

or

b. Is a repentant backslider regenerated a second time?

or

c. Is a repentant backslider restored to fellowship with the Father who welcomes His wayward son home with open arms?

I choose "C". Which do you choose?

Are you equating backsliding with falling away? If so then I would choose option "A". If not then I would choose option "C". The following passage indicates that someone who falls away cannot be led back to repentance:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[glad4mercy]

To walk in the light as He is in the light is to see things as He sees things to have His same mind. the mind of Christ, think in terms He thinks in. His way isnt our way, we have to accept in us His way by His same Spirit be in us, Christ in you opens His mind, His heaven to us which brings understanding to Jesus commandment of be one with the Father as I am one with Him.

Very good. I agree with what you are saying. John reveals what walking in the Light throughout his epistle. To walk in the Light is to walk in truth, love, obedience to God, faith, to walk as Jesus walked.

[glad4mercy]

Are you equating backsliding with falling away?

Not at all. Backsliding and apostasy are not the same. Backsliding can lead to complete departure which can lead to irrevocable apostasy, but a repentant backslider is received with open arms as I said earlier. The key word in this is "repentant".

If so then I would choose option "A". If not then I would choose option "C".

Since I am not equating backsliding with apostasy, I take it that you are choosing option C. There is an interesting thing that I think that your statement would necessarily lead to. Bear with me for a minute, and consider the following.

If a professed believer backslides and dies in a backslidden state, then you have to admit that one of three things is true. Either a. we have to revert back to option A, (saying that that person was never saved to begin with), or b. we have to deny option C which says that God infallibly brings back a fallen Christian, or c. we have to adopt a stance that says a Christian who dies in a backslidden state dies in Grace. There is no other option. One of three things has to be the case.

a. The person was never saved.
b. The person was saved but fell away.
c. The person died in sin and went to Heaven.

I cannot think of any other option, other than if the person repented at some point before they died.

I hold that if a person that makes a confession of faith and backslides and dies in that condition, either A or B is a real possibility. As far as option C, only God knows and only God can judge, but we do know that no fornicator, adulterer, idolater, liar, etc will have any part of the Kingdom. So perhaps someone may die as a bruised reed or a flickering light and be under grace, but a person who has denied and departed from the faith will not. This is why we must test ourselves to see whether we are of faith, lest we should find ourselves to be cast aways.

The following passage indicates that someone who falls away cannot be led back to repentance:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I agree, although I don't think that this passage is speaking of a Christian who stumbles and then repents. This is a person that at some point irrevocably rejects Christ, whether it can become an irrevocable apostasy in this life or if it becomes irrevocable at death, I do not know.

I apologize to the OP that I allowed this to digress into a OSAS discussion. I take full blame for this. If anyone wants to discuss this further, send me a message and we can start another thread.

[mailmandan]

First off, there really is no past-tense to save. None of us are actually "saved" until we die.

Actually, Ephesians 2:8 says - For by grace you have been saved through faith.. The Greek perfect tense emphasizes action initiated in the past, the effects of which continue into the present and beyond. We really have been saved through faith from the penalty of sin which has been initiated in the past. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. We don't have to wait until death in order for this to become a reality. None of us are actually saved from the presence of sin until we die. Believers are saved through faith and justified by faith now, yet glorification is still yet future.

[glad4mercy]

Actually, Ephesians 2:8 says - For by grace you have been saved through faith.. The Greek perfect tense emphasizes action initiated in the past, the effects of which continue into the present and beyond. We really have been saved through faith from the penalty of sin which has been initiated in the past. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. We don't have to wait until death in order for this to become a reality. None of us are actually saved from the presence of sin until we die. Believers are saved through faith and justified by faith now, yet glorification is still yet future.

Amen, brother. Here are some other verses that show that we are saved in the present tense.

2 Timothy 1:9
Titus 3:5

We already have eternal life. Present possession.

1 John 5:13- I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.