When does regeneration takes place?

[Eyelog]

Eyelog, I am honored and humbled by your words; and very proud to call you "saved brother". :-)


I've always considered the baptism in that verse as "anecdotal". He who believes and is baptized is saved; it does not say "he who is not dipped is condemned"; it does not deny that "he who believes is saved".

Well, even as worded --- the bit about "and-is-baptized" (clearly referring to water) works well as anecdotal; it simply does not say "who is NOT dipped, is condemned".

"Salvation", is receiving Jesus and receiving the Spirit. We read John14:15, where the world cannot receive the Spirit. Those in Acts8 seem to have had a mental assent, but not belief-that-receives Jesus and the Spirit. Clearly, receiving the Spirit is BEFORE waterbaptism (Acts10), AFTER waterbaptism (Acts8), or DURING (Acts2, 22). So receiving-the-Spirit has nothing to DO with waterbaptism.

The existence of Simon and his baptism interferes with your perception, not mine; I acknowledge that waterbaptism has nothing to do with salvation.

Exactly what do you think Jesus' baptism is? John's baptism was FOR REPENTANCE. What is ours?

No, they just hadn't understood what John was teaching; he WAS baptizing for repentance, telling them to LOOK FOR JESUS. This whole passage supports what I've been saying, it's more than just mental-assent-belief, it's the kind of belief that RECEIVES Jesus and the Spirit.

The kind of belief that Cornelius had in Acts10:45-47.

...and then they were waterbaptized in verse 48...

Things like tongues (and waterbaptism) will accompany the saved. 1Cor12 states that "not everyone will speak in tongues".

The "tongues" came with "receiving-the-Spirit". That comes with saving-belief; can be before water, after water, or along with.

Peter said waterbaptism saves us IF ACCOMPANIED BY repentance. Paraphrased. Because of their speaking-in-tongues, Peter rightly recognized they had received the Spirit. We've proven (especially by John14:17, and Romans8:15) that "receiving-the-Spirit", is "salvation/becoming-adopted-sons".

Peter recognized that God gave them the same gift of the Spirit as He had given the Apostles, after believing. They were saved.
Agreed --- the first fruit of a SAVED believer is ...baptism. :-)

Your policy appears to be -- deny, deny, deny. In the fray you forget: certainty of your p;osition is gone. You are down to odds now, and they hover in the midrange, not the high end.

[Eyelog]

To "have faith", is "to believe" --- identical in the Greek. "Obedience" is not the same as "belief", identically --- but they are identical in concept, and coexist; one cannot be truly believing without being obedient, and no one is obedient without truly believing.

Any belief which does not inexorably lead to obedience, is not saved-faith. Agreed.

Patently unfair; at no time have I promoted "easy believism", I embrace what James said. Yet, he is not advocating "works-salvation"; he embraces the reality that true faith produces good works.

There is no such thing as saving faith which produces good works. There is only saving faith which has already produced good works. It is not saving faith until you produce your first good work, which would be to confess Christ as Lord, by whatever means.

The act of believing, is a work; but it is not our work, it is God's work that we do. The truth of Scripture must be consistent, that either "works" are part of faith (and part of salvation), OR works have no part of salvation. Rom11:6 and Eph2:8 are two verses which plainly state "not by works".

This 'we work God's work' concept is a remnant from the hyper grace mentality which swept our land in the 80's, and from which we have not at all recovered from. This is nonsense. It says nothing. It is a way to say we work without working, which is nonsense.

It is all very simple. Yes, we do the work, but the work is not intended to earn our salvation, but to express our hope, faith and love of the Lord in submission to Him as Lord. Huge difference in the "intents and thoughts of the heart" (Heb 4:12), between doing anything God prescribes in order to earn salvation, justify ourselves, or merit favor, or prove our righteousness -- and doing anything God prescribes in order to express our hope, faith, love, repentance, submission, etc.

True faith leads inescapably to obedience; we obey because we believe.

True. But it is not saving faith until our first act of obedience, confessing Jesus as Lord. There is faith and there is perfected or completed faith. Only the latter saves. It takes belief in the heart and an outward act of faith in submission to Christ to be completed faith. Period. Romans 10:9-10.

There is nowhere in Scripture that "receive-the-Spirit" is separate from salvation.

I proved otherwise in my post below. You believe to receive the manifestation of the Spirit, but you must love and obey Him to receive the indwelling. Why you keep ignoring this distinction is beyond me. Why you keep equating them is beyond me. You assert that certain people are saved by faith, yet you require they receive the HS in order to be counted as saved. Then, those who are clearly saved who have not recieved the Spirit need to have hands laid on them to receive it. So, is saving faith sometimes faith PLUS laying on of hands by a super apostle?

Your connecting manfiestations to saving faith is erroneous. It is true that manifestations became a sign that the Lord had opened up the possiblity of salvation to the Gentiles. But it was not a sign that any given Gentile was already saved. Indeed, the Ephesians and Samaritans (half Jews) had to have laying on of hands to receive the Spirit's manifestation, even having believed and been baptized, whereas Cornelius and company had the manifestations after believing after hearing the Word, though they had not been baptized. But nowhere in Acts is the indwelling discussed, ... anywhere. Silence does not permit you to say indwelling and manifestations go hand in hand. Moreover, without outward acts, you and I can never know if a person has the indwelling, and even then it requires spiritual discernment, and even then we may not have certainty except by the power of the HS. So, your entire fixation on "receiving the Spirit" is a fixation only on manifestations, and manifestations are not a dependable sign of a person being saved. Period. I will say no more on this. You may have the last say about receiving the Spirit if you want it. But I am convinced there is no proof of savlation bc a person has manifestations. Period.

Have a lovely evening.

[Boo]

Come on --- all those people in Nazi prisons, who came to know Jesus --- but could NOT be baptized? They all perished? You know they didn't; and I know you know.

You have no way of knowing what happened to anyone for sure unless you have been a witness in heaven. You can think, you can be convinced, and you can wish - but you can't know.

For those who have thrown out the whole issue of baptism as being significant or meaningful to God, or denied the purpose of the early church in instructing all those who believed to be immediately baptized after repentance "for the remission of sins," you are not operating on what you "know." You are operating on what the protestant man has determined to be correct doctrine, and it still requires that you take simples sentences and reconstruct them to mean something else.

Deny it all you want, you neither you nor I make rules for God. If He wanted people to be baptized for the remission of sins, that was His requirement. If He wants to accept those who cannot be baptized, that is His choice. If He refuses to accept someone who refuses to be baptized, that also is His choice.

[Gadgeteer]

Your policy appears to be -- deny, deny, deny. In the fray you forget: certainty of your position is gone. You are down to odds now, and they hover in the midrange, not the high end.

Hardly. We proved from Scripture that "receive-the-Spirit", is "indwelt"; that the world cannot receive Him. We discredited the claim that a donkey can receive the Spirit the same way that a man can, and can speak in Human tongues; even in that instance the donkey did not exalt and worship God.

All that's left --- is for you to admit what we've established.

:-)

[Gadgeteer]

There is no such thing as saving faith which produces good works. There is only saving faith which has already produced good works. It is not saving faith until you produce your first good work, which would be to confess Christ as Lord, by whatever means.

That is your position, with which I disagree --- does Scripture agree or disagree?

"Works" are not part of "faith"; faith produces works --- it is the meaning of Jesus' words in Matt7:16-18. There is no way around verses like Rom11:6 --- "if it be by works, then grace is no longer grace".

This 'we work God's work' concept is a remnant from the hyper grace mentality which swept our land in the 80's, and from which we have not at all recovered from. This is nonsense.

This is Jesus' words in Jn6:25-29. That you consider His words nonsense, changes nothing of what He said.

It says nothing. It is a way to say we work without working, which is nonsense.

Jesus said it; I believe it.

It is all very simple. Yes, we do the work, but the work is not intended to earn our salvation, but to express our hope, faith and love of the Lord in submission to Him as Lord. Huge difference in the "intents and thoughts of the heart" (Heb 4:12), between doing anything God prescribes in order to earn salvation, justify ourselves, or merit favor, or prove our righteousness -- and doing anything God prescribes in order to express our hope, faith, love, repentance, submission, etc.

Either "works" are part of faith (and therefore salvation is by faith and works), or they are not part of faith (and the rest of Scripture is true).

True faith leads inescapably to obedience; we obey because we believe.

True.

No, you are denying this --- you perceive it is NOT true faith until works are done changing the "faith" into "saving-faith".

But it is not saving faith until our first act of obedience, confessing Jesus as Lord. There is faith and there is perfected or completed faith. Only the latter saves. It takes belief in the heart and an outward act of faith in submission to Christ to be completed faith. Period. Romans 10:9-10.

See? That opposes Rom4:3 ("Abraham believed and it was counted as righteousness"), Rom11:6 ("If by works, then grace is no longer grace"), Eph2:8 ("not as a result of works lest anyone boast"), etcetera.

I proved otherwise in my post below. You believe to receive the manifestation of the Spirit, but you must love and obey Him to receive the indwelling.

We proved that "receiving" is "indwelling".

We gave you John1:12, Jn14:17, Rom8:15-16, and others.

Why you keep ignoring this distinction is beyond me.

Because I have to choose --- ignore that distinction, or ignore Scripture.

Why you keep equating them is beyond me. You assert that certain people are saved by faith, yet you require they receive the HS in order to be counted as saved.

"Faith", is an active thing; to believe in Jesus is to receive Him as Savior and Lord and to receive the Spirit. That's what Cornelius and company did.

Then, those who are clearly saved who have not received the Spirit need to have hands laid on them to receive it. So, is saving faith sometimes faith PLUS laying on of hands by a super apostle?

They didn't have the Spirit --- how can you say "they were saved"? They were saved some time after being waterbaptized.

Your connecting manfistations to saving faith is erroneous. It is true that manifestations became a sign that the Lord had opened up the possibility of salvation to the Gentiles. But it was not a sign that any given Gentile was already saved.

Yes it was. It was the same as with the Apostles.

Indeed, the Ephesians and Samaritans (half Jews) had to have laying on of hands to receive the Spirit's manifestation, even having believed and been baptized, whereas Cornelius and company had the manifestations after believing after hearing the Word, though they had not been baptized. But nowhere in Acts is the indwelling discussed, ... anywhere. Silence does not permit you to say indwelling and manifestations go hand in hand.

It's not silence. It's Jn1:12, Jn14:17, Rom8:15-16, etcetera.

Moreover, without outward acts, you and I can never know if a person has the indwelling, and even then it requires spiritual discernment, and even then we may not have certainty except by the power of the HS.

They don't need my validation. :-)

So, your entire fixation on "receiving the Spirit" is a fixation only on manifestations, and manifestations are not a dependable sign of a person being saved. Period. I will say no more on this.

As you wish. Yet --- Jn1:12, Jn14:17, Rom8:15-16 and others, stand.

You may have the last say about receiving the Spirit if you want it. But I am convinced there is no proof of savlation bc a person has manifestations. Period.

It wasn't "because of manifestations"; it was because of RECEIVING the Spirit, which the world cannot do.

...and that's what you're claiming --- someone of the world (not yet saved) received the Spirit. Scripture says "no".

Have a lovely evening.

And you. It's gonna break freezing tonight or tomorrow; send over some warm weather. Only good thing is there won't be any more 'SKEETERS...

My car broke down two weeks ago; it was no problem --- I just grabbed a couple mosquitoes and hitched a ride...

[Eyelog]

Jesus said it; I believe it.
...

No, Jesus said it; you misinterpret it .., and then believe your interpretation as the Gospel truth. No wonder you fight so hard to say your interpretation is true; in your view, to tell you your interpretation is not what the Bible says is like heresy.

Eyelog: It is all very simple. Yes, we do the work, but the work is not intended to earn our salvation, but to express our hope, faith and love of the Lord in submission to Him as Lord. Huge difference in the "intents and thoughts of the heart" (Heb 4:12), between doing anything God prescribes in order to earn salvation, justify ourselves, or merit favor, or prove our righteousness -- and doing anything God prescribes in order to express our hope, faith, love, repentance, submission, etc.

Either "works" are part of faith (and therefore salvation is by faith and works), or they are not part of faith (and the rest of Scripture is true).

You are not addressing the real issue: The intentions of the doer/non-doer. This is analogous to eating food sacrificed to idols. The works are nothing in themselves. It is the meaning of the works, and the meaning is dependent upon the intention of the doer/non-doer.

E.g., Paul says to the Galatians:

5:2 ... if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. ³ And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. ⁴ You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. ⁵ For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. ⁶ For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Here, it is plain that circumcision and uncircumcision, which are works, are nothing. It is the "seeking to be justified by law" which makes you "fallen from grace." It is not circumcision itself which makes one fall from grace or not. Yet, faith must "work" through love. That is what means something. So, working is required. But the intent of being justified by the law thru working is the problem.

You know, a person could say, i want to earn my salvation by obeying the command to not be circumcised but to just believe in my heart. This person could not be saved in this way. For, it is not the holding back from works which saves you by faith. (of course, not getting circumcised in that case is as much of a work as not murdering your brother). No, it is the intention of the person.

Today, most American male gentile believers tend to be circumcised as infants at the behest of their parents. Why is this not held against us? Why does this not nullify our faith and make us "fallen from grace"? Is it bc our parents did not intend for the circumcision to earn our salvation? No. It is because the individual who was circumcised as an infant did not intend it as anything.

And what makes faith a living faith? Actually, not just works added to faith. They must be works intended to carry out what one trusts and believes in, what one believes will please the beloved, what one believes will result in receiving the object hoped for, etc. But if one works in order to "be justified by the law", obviously the faith plus works is not living faith. Why?

Not for a lack of works, but for a lack of the right kind of faith. The right kind of faith is one which (a) seeks to allow Christ to be our righteousness (substitutionary), and (b) is sufficiently in earnest -- that works in keeping with that faith accompany it.

Note that works consistent with one's faith are not optional. The faith is not saving faith or living faith without the works. But even with the works, if one intends the works as a means to nullify our reliance on God to justify us by grace, i..e, by the free gift of Christ's propitiation of our sins, justifying us and imputing His righteousness to us, then that faith is dead as well.

This is the lesson of grace vs. works. To suggest we need no grace or we need no works is wrong. To say we can intend one to nullify the other is wrong. Instead, the two must work together in the correct way, lest anyone boast or anyone not receive grace in earnest. Those are the two dangers, and whether one will succumb to one danger or the other, or get it right, is a matter of the "thoughts and intents of the heart" Hebrews 4:12.

This is the lesson I have been seeking to teach. For the Church is mightily confused on this issue. Unless one sees it as I have explained, they are confused. They may be saved, but they are confused. ... But they might not be saved ....

[Eyelog]

We proved that "receiving" is "indwelling".

We gave you John1:12, Jn14:17, Rom8:15-16, and others.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

John 14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Romans 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Eyelog said: But nowhere in Acts is the indwelling discussed, ... anywhere. Silence does not permit you to say indwelling and manifestations go hand in hand.

It's not silence. It's Jn1:12, Jn14:17, Rom8:15-16, etcetera.

Eyelog said: your entire fixation on "receiving the Spirit" is a fixation only on manifestations, and manifestations are not a dependable sign of a person being saved. Period.

Yet --- Jn1:12, Jn14:17, Rom8:15-16 and others, stand.

Gadge, not one of these verses says WHEN one will receive the indwelling of the HS or under what conditions. As such, to say that to receive the manifestations of the Spirit is to receive the indwelling of the Spirit is still not established. Period.

John 1:12 doesn't even mention the HS! Jn 14:17 says that at some future time those who "see Him and know Him" or who already abide with Him {HS} will be indwelt. This says nothing about when, nor the final conditions for how. Failing to see Him and know Him or abide with Him might be necessary prerequisites, but they are not necessarily sufficient prerequisites for receiving indwelling, yet one can receive manifestations by merely believing. Yet, Jn 14:23 says you have to love and obey Him before you can be indwelt. Finally, Rom 8:15 describes the situation after receiving the indwelling, but it does not talk of how it occurred or when or under what conditions. Not one of these verses refers to manifestations.

These verses about "receiving" do not demonstrate that everywhere "receive" is spoken of the Spirit, that it refers to receiving the indwelling as well as the manifestations. This method of throwing up verses that contain a word or two which might be significant does not prove your point, especially when you assert you are dead certain of this and it can be depended upon when arguing further points based on it. This is not flawless exegesis. It is interpretive theologizing.

Free country, but when you claim it is obviously the truth, ... your reader is looking for something clear and certain. You are asking your reader to see a couple of words in your verses and ASSUME they mean what you claim.

Eyelog: You may have the last say about receiving the Spirit if you want it. But I am convinced there is no proof of savlation bc a person has manifestations. Period.

It wasn't "because of manifestations"; it was because of RECEIVING the Spirit, which the world cannot do.

...and that's what you're claiming --- someone of the world (not yet saved) received the Spirit. Scripture says "no".

[Gadgeteer]

The act of believing, is a work; but it is not our work, it is God's work that we do. The truth of Scripture must be consistent, that either "works" are part of faith (and part of salvation), OR works have no part of salvation. Rom11:6 and Eph2:8 are two verses which plainly state "not by works".

It says nothing. It is a way to say we work without working, which is nonsense.

Jesus said it; I believe it.

No, Jesus said it; you misinterpret it .., and then believe your interpretation as the Gospel truth. No wonder you fight so hard to say your interpretation is true; in your view, to tell you your interpretation is not what the Bible says is like heresy.

Here is the exchange:

Jn6:27) "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
28) Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
29) Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Jesus: "Work for food that endures to eternal life."
Jews: "What do we do to work the works of God?"
Jesus: "This is the work of God --- believe in Me."

We work the work-of-God. His work, that we do.

you misinterpret it .., and then believe your interpretation as the Gospel truth.

Tell me how my interpretation is wrong.

Either "works" are part of faith (and therefore salvation is by faith and works), or they are not part of faith (and the rest of Scripture is true).

You are not addressing the real issue: The intentions of the doer/non-doer. This is analogous to eating food sacrificed to idols. The works are nothing in themselves. It is the meaning of the works, and the meaning is dependent upon the intention of the doer/non-doer.

E.g., Paul says to the Galatians:

5:2 ... if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Believing is a choice we make, receiving God's work; it is not a work we do.
All we do in Christ, all our "works of righteousness", are the consequence of belief, of "Him-in-us" both to will and work (through us) according to His good pleasure.

Here, it is plain that circumcision and uncircumcision, which are works, are nothing. It is the "seeking to be justified by law" which makes you "fallen from grace."

That's because they were turning back to "works" --- Law.

It is not circumcision itself which makes one fall from grace or not. Yet, faith must "work" through love. That is what means something. So, working is required. But the intent of being justified by the law thru working is the problem.

"Work" is not required for salvation; good works is the evidence of saving-faith. He who is saved, does good works. But he's saved before (apart from) the good works.

That's why the thief on the cross was saved!!!!!

You know, a person could say, i want to earn my salvation by obeying the command to not be circumcised but to just believe in my heart. This person could not be saved in this way. For, it is not the holding back from works which saves you by faith. (of course, not getting circumcised in that case is as much of a work as not murdering your brother). No, it is the intention of the person.

If he has opportunity to do good works, but does not do them, then he has not the faith commensurate with good works.

James4:17 "Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin."

Today, most American male gentile believers tend to be circumcised as infants at the behest of their parents. Why is this not held against us? Why does this not nullify our faith and make us "fallen from grace"? Is it bc our parents did not intend for the circumcision to earn our salvation? No. It is because the individual who was circumcised as an infant did not intend it as anything.

It has no value in salvation, just as "works" have no value in salvation.

After salvation --- this is the meaning of Philip2:12, "WORK OUT your salvation (that you already have!) with fear and trembling; for it is GOD at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good pleasure."

And what makes faith a living faith? Actually, not just works added to faith. They must be works intended to carry out what one trusts and believes in, what one believes will please the beloved, what one believes will result in receiving the object hoped for, etc. But if one works in order to "be justified by the law", obviously the faith plus works is not living faith. Why?

Please reread 2Pet1:5-11 --- bad translation is "add to your faith". Good translation is "supply IN your faith" --- the good works, moral excellence, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness and love. For he who LACKS these qualities is no longer saved.

Not for a lack of works, but for a lack of the right kind of faith. The right kind of faith is one which (a) seeks to allow Christ to be our righteousness (substitutionary), and (b) is sufficiently in earnest -- that works in keeping with that faith accompany it.

"Accompany" --- not "are causally involved in it".

Note that works consistent with one's faith are not optional.

Agreed.

The faith is not saving faith or living faith without the works.

Technically agree; but rather than "saving-faith", without works it is not SAVED faith. Saving-faith comes before works. That seems to be our disagreement.

But even with the works, if one intends the works as a means to nullify our reliance on God to justify us by grace, i..e, by the free gift of Christ's propitiation of our sins, justifying us and imputing His righteousness to us, then that faith is dead as well.

Agreed.

This is the lesson of grace vs. works. To suggest we need no grace or we need no works is wrong. To say we can intend one to nullify the other is wrong. Instead, the two must work together in the correct way, lest anyone boast or anyone not receive grace in earnest. Those are the two dangers, and whether one will succumb to one danger or the other, or get it right, is a matter of the "thoughts and intents of the heart" Hebrews 4:12.

Seems we are debating a technical point; do works CAUSE saving-faith, or does saving-faith cause good works?

This is the lesson I have been seeking to teach. For the Church is mightily confused on this issue. Unless one sees it as I have explained, they are confused. They may be saved, but they are confused. ... But they might not be saved ....

Do you still think I am confused, seeing as I don't "see it as you have explained"?

;-)

[Gadgeteer]

Gadge, not one of these verses says WHEN one will receive the indwelling of the HS or under what conditions. As such, to say that to receive the manifestations of the Spirit is to receive the indwelling of the Spirit is still not established. Period.

Our argument is over the fact that Cornelius & company received the Spirit --- John14:17 says the world cannot receive the Spirit. It's something ONLY a saved person can do. (Period.) :-)

John 1:12 doesn't even mention the HS! Jn 14:17 says that at some future time those who "see Him and know Him" or who already abide with Him {HS} will be indwelt: This says nothing about when, nor the final conditions for how.

John 14:16-17 speaks of the COMING Spirit, who will be sent after Jesus dies. Cornelius' incident was after the Spirit was available (poured out upon the world). At Cornelius' time, "receiving the Spirit" was inseparable from "receiving Christ" --- no one could receive Jesus, without also receiving the Spirit. Hence, my reference to Jn1:12.

Failing to see Him and know Him or abide with Him might be necessary prerequisites, but they are not necessarily sufficient prerequisites for receiving indwelling, yet one can receive manifestations by merely believing. Yet, Jn 14:23 says you have to love and obey Him before you can be indwelt. Finally, Rom 8:15 describes the situation after receiving the indwelling, but it does not talk of how it occurred or when or under what conditions. Not one of these verses refers to manifestations.

Cornelius receive the Spirit, which the WORLD (unsaved world) could not do, and received Him just as the APOSTLES did after believing.

But you insist "there is no proof they were saved". I insist there was every proof, as we've established with Jn14:17, Acts11:17, Jn1:12, etcetera.

These verses about "receiving" do not demonstrate that everywhere "receive" is spoken of the Spirit, that it refers to receiving the indwelling as well as the manifestations. This method of throwing up verses that contain a word or two which might be significant does not prove your point, especially when you assert you are dead certain of this and it can be depended upon when arguing further points based on it. This is not flawless exegesis. It is interpretive theologizing.

Show me anywhere that "receiving the Spirit and speaking in tongues" happens in the NT without salvation.

Free country, but when you claim it is obviously the truth, ... your reader is looking for something clear and certain. You are asking your reader to see a couple of words in your verses and ASSUME they mean what you claim.

Okay, let's ask the other readers --- is it unconvincing that they were saved, given Acts11:17, Jn14:17, Jn1:12 --- and the fact that it's the same "ekcheo-poured" in Acts10:45 as in Titus3:5-6?

[Eyelog]

Show me anywhere that "receiving the Spirit and speaking in tongues" happens in the NT without salvation.

This begs the question. I say receiving of manifestations of the Spirit without the indwelling is possible in the precise place you depend on your proposition that this cannot be: the Acts 10-11 Gentiles. Your problem has been circular reasoning from the beginning. You chose a problem text to prove your proposition, and you try to prove the problem text proves your proposition by simply asserting your proposition to be true.

I could say, "See, my dog is black." And you could say, "no, your dog is gray." I could say, "dogs that look like mine are black by defn." You would say, "your own dog proves that the defn is flawed, bc your dog is the exception to the rule." I could say, "show me another dog that looks like mine which is not black." And you would say, "Whether I can find another or not, your dog is gray, not black."

And you would be correct. Requiring you to find another example could not prove what color my dog is, anyway.

This is how it is here, where you keep asking for examples of what I say is possibly exemplified by the very passage you claim proves your point.

In the end, we have uncertainty.

[Eyelog]

Seems we are debating a technical point; do works CAUSE saving-faith, or does saving-faith cause good works?

Do you still think I am confused, seeing as I don't "see it as you have explained"?

You have uttered a false dilemma. There is another option, and it is the only option which is true: Hope in Christ as our substitutionary sacrifice for our sins leads to confessing Him as our Lord/Master who we must obey. IOW, Hope leads to Action, and the combination of the two results in "living faith" or "saving faith".

But the real issue is that you still have not acknowledged that it is the intention which makes an action violate the grace principle, not the action itself.

If I intend to earn my salvation, it doesn't matter whether I follow through and do any acts or not. I am not saved.
If I intend to accept the righteousness of God as my own, through trusting in Christ as my Savior, and I then do some kind of an act consistent with that intent, the act does not nullify grace, and I can be saved that way.

You mention the thief on the Cross as having done no action. Clearly, he confessed Jesus as Lord by all that He said to the other thief and to Jesus. So, this is not an example of one who believes in their heart but fails the second prong of Romans 10:9-10 as to confessing with their mouth Jesus is Lord.

Ever heard of a death-bed "confession?" Is it a confession that we have sinned that gets us saved? No. It is a confession that Jesus is Lord that gets us saved. Does that require the person to get up and start serving the poor? Certainly not if he is about to die. Rom 10 requires belief in the heart and confession with the mouth. to suggest a confession with the mouth is not a physical action is absurd.

So, if it is a physical action, it is a deed, a work: Ergon (noun); Ergazomai (verb).

If your amazingly concrete thinking on this issue were true, that all works nullify the grace which salvation by faith and not of works requires, then no one could confess with mouth, and Romans 10 would be contradicted.

The bottom line is that it is the intent of the works. Indeed, for the most part Paul is talking about trying to earn salvation by keeping the Law of Moses. Nearly every reference to works refers to the "works of the Law."

Ro 3:20 -
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Ro 3:27 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Ro 3:28 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Ro 4:2 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
1. Romans 4:4
Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Romans 4:3-5 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
2. Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Ro 4:6 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
Romans 4:16
For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Romans 4
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Justification by Faith Evidenced in Old Testament
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8 “BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE.” 19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

Ro 9:11 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Ro 9:32 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Romans 10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Word of Faith Brings Salvation
10 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
Ro 11:6 - 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Ga 2:16 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Ga 3:2 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
This is the only thingI want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Ga 3:5 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Ga 3:10 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM
Galatians 3:11
Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”
Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Philippians 3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.
Colossians 1:6
that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace.
2 Timothy 1:8-10
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
2Ti 1:9 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
Tit 3:5 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Heb 4:10 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
Heb 6:1 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Jas 2:14 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:17 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:20 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:24 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Jas 2:25 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Jas 2:26 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
1 Peter 1:1-3
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

But it is true that it is not just works of the law which are a problem. It is any attempt to earn our salvation. But you can't attempt anything without the state of mind combined with an act in furtherance of the intent to do the thing. The state of mind or intent to earn salvation is the problem. It is not the incidental actions involved in getting saved that nullify grace.

Think about it. Billy Graham on the podium in a stadium. Tells all those people to come down to him and repeat a prayer. These are physical actions coupled with (hopefully) belief in the heart. (A) Why ask them to do them? (B) Why are these actions not works which nullify grace?

Billy asked them to come forward as an outward sign/confession that they accepted Christ as Lord and Savior. This did not nullify grace, but rather fulfilled, completed or perfected the belief/hope in Christ ala James 2 and Romans 10.

If you don't understand works this way, you are still confused. It is precisely the failure to understand (willfully or not) works as I have been explaining which drives the hyper grace movement and all its outrageous statements, prohibitions on good deeds, assumptions God obeys for us and we are to be as passive as possible, and in many cases justifies licentiousness in their view.

So, this is one of the big issues of our day. What is the life in Christ supposed to be in light of our obligations to and the expectations of our Lord and master, Jesus Christ?

Believe me, ... just getting close to God is not enough. For He will require us to DO. He who does not do, does not abide. But hyper grace folk think abiding is simply fellowshipping with the Lord. But that very fellowship is destroyed by failing to obey.

There are many implications for the life in Christ. Those who are into hyper grace are not very likely to persevere to the end, suffering in order to live a righteous life. But that is what we are called to.

1 Peter 2:19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.

1 John 3:7
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

James 2:24
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Hebrews 12:11
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Hebrews 5:13
Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

2 Timothy 2:22
Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

1 Timothy 6:11
[ Final Charge to Timothy ] But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.

1 Thessalonians 2:10
You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.

Ephesians 4:24
and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Romans 6:18
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Those who think actions nullify grace by defn are prone to great confusion on these issues.

Nor am I saying after we are saved we seek to earn our salvation or earn righteousness, etc. No. We act righteously by faith, in accordance with our faith, because of our faith, as an expression and completing of our faith. But to say it happens on its own, by the Work God has and is doing is us, is only partially true. God works unilaterally in hopes we will learn to act bilaterally. Sometimes that requires Him to wait on us, because the ball is in our court.