Popular Atheist Blogger turns to Catholicism

[Colight]

If you refuse to give to someone who is truly in need, absolutely.

Again giving is free willed.
You are creating compulsion, this is not in line with scripture..

Matthew 25 has nothing to do with oppressed Jews, e.g. Christ never refers to Jewish believers as his 'brothers' (as you claim in post #140, to Slug), and if anything the section has to do with the response of nations towards Jesus and his followers.

Yet in Matthew 12..

48 And he answering said to him who spake to him, `Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?'
49 And having stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, he said, `Lo, my mother and my brethren!
50 for whoever may do the will of my Father who is in the heavens, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.'

That's very American of you, but non-sequitur. That you ought to provide food for the hungry (e.g. you ought to give food to someone about to die of starvation), does not entail that the hungry have a right to your food. Or maybe it does, and the free-market is more beastly than Marxism ever was.

Perhaps it is Gods will they are in that situation they are in.
Once again you are creating compulsion on what some one else does with their labor.

In freedom, I have a right to do with my fruits as I see fit.
If not then why should I create fruit... if it is just going to be eaten by some one else ?

Paul is speaking to fellow Christians, first of all. And the warning against 'idleness' is primarily directed at fellow Christians. It's great when people with disabilities work (why should they be praised?), no one is saying otherwise, and no one is saying that people should refuse to work and expect handouts every week. And again, you're generalizing. We're talking about actual people in need, while you can't seem to get your mind off of welfare-system abusers.

Not a generalization, with a RECORD number on food stamps and a record number of people thinking other people who work owe them a living.

And? If such a person were starving, or in need of medical attention, or in need of clothes, you would stand over them and say, 'Oh well, you had opportunities'? Not everyone is poor for reasons they had control over, and just because someone had control over some aspects of their lives, doesn't mean they don't need help; and Jesus' commands to love everyone as one loves themselves don't stop at 'you had opportunities / you messed your life up'.

Love them... share the gospel.... is not God able to help those who call on him?

He provides for the birds and the beasts.
He is more than able to bless those who seek him with food and shelter.
Or is God just a name in the sky, where it is the hustling of believers that are really the driving force?

There has been many times he has provided for me.. why cant all these poor people be provided for in the same manner as I have?

I will tell you why.. they reject truth and follow a lie.. therefore many are under his judgement.

Historically there have been similar positions. People are poor because their ancestors sinned. People are poor because God doesn't favor them.

We have a living God..
Why is it your thinking acts as if it all depends on you to run out and right all the wrongs and stuff all the empty tummies?

Mat 6

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

If they turn to truth, God will provide
...and if God will not provide for them when they reject truth... why should I?

He transcends all ancestors and favors to those who turn to the truth.
Yet your focus is on men hustling around with pots of food running after the poor people, there is no dependence on Christ for any of the out look you promote.

It is human carnal action over faith and trust in God, therefore a carnal distraction.

1 peter 5

6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Phil 4
19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

[Colight]

V 28 is strong!

Matthew 12..
48 And he answering said to him who spake to him, `Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?'
49 And having stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, he said, `Lo, my mother and my brethren!
50 for whoever may do the will of my Father who is in the heavens, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.'

[andrew_no_one]

Cut/paste from CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION (Article 3)

460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

[Athanasius]

Again giving is free willed.
You are creating compulsion, this is not in line with scripture..

You are compulsed, as a Christian, to obey the commandments of Christ and the teachings found throughout Scripture.

Yet in Matthew 12..

48 And he answering said to him who spake to him, `Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?'
49 And having stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, he said, `Lo, my mother and my brethren!
50 for whoever may do the will of my Father who is in the heavens, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.'

You'll notice he's speaking of his followers, not Jewish believers who are not following him.

Perhaps it is Gods will they are in that situation they are in.

How does that absolve you from loving your neighbour as yourself, or taking care of the poor?

Once again you are creating compulsion on what some one else does with their labor.

In freedom, I have a right to do with my fruits as I see fit.
If not then why should I create fruit... if it is just going to be eaten by some one else ?

You are morally compulsed to give food to a man about to die of starvation. It has nothing to do with whatever freedoms you think you have, and everything to do with how you treat other people in light of your relationship with God.

Not a generalization, with a RECORD number on food stamps and a record number of people thinking other people who work owe them a living.

Who cares how many people are on food stamps, not all poor people are, not and all poor people think others owe them a living. You're generalizing, and nothing you can say, short of stopping, is going to help your cause.

Love them... share the gospel.... is not God able to help those who call on him?

He provides for the birds and the beasts.
He is more than able to bless those who seek him with food and shelter.
Or is God just a name in the sky, where it is the hustling of believers that are really the driving force?

There has been many times he has provided for me.. why cant all these poor people be provided for in the same manner as I have?

I will tell you why.. they reject truth and follow a lie.. therefore many are under his judgement.

God is able to help those people, sure, and often he uses other people.

We have a living God..
Why is it your thinking acts as if it all depends on you to run out and right all the wrongs and stuff all the empty tummies?

I'll let you point out where I said anything of the sort.

Mat 6

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

If they turn to truth, God will provide
...and if God will not provide for them when they reject truth... why should I?

Who said God wouldn't provide for them? That's not the point of this portion of Scripture.

He transcends all ancestors and favors to those who turn to the truth.
Yet your focus is on men hustling around with pots of food running after the poor people, there is no dependence on Christ for any of the out look you promote.

Where did I say that?

It is human carnal action over faith and trust in God, therefore a carnal distraction.

1 peter 5

6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Phil 4
19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

You're not reading what I'm saying, if this is the direction you're going.

[Colight]

You are compulsed, as a Christian, to obey the commandments of Christ and the teachings found throughout Scripture.

As I have posted before...

2 Corinthians 9
7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Therefore there is no compulsion.

You'll notice he's speaking of his followers, not Jewish believers who are not following him.

....and?
We have a definition of who Christ considers as brethren...therefore we know that when the nations do not treat his brethren well. In the time that he returns.. a judgement will occur.

How does that absolve you from loving your neighbour as yourself, or taking care of the poor?

You are morally compulsed to give food to a man about to die of starvation. It has nothing to do with whatever freedoms you think you have, and everything to do with how you treat other people in light of your relationship with God.

Who cares how many people are on food stamps, not all poor people are, not and all poor people think others owe them a living. You're generalizing, and nothing you can say, short of stopping, is going to help your cause.

Yet today among the Poor in the USA obesity is rampant.
They just are not dying of starvation there.
There is plenty of good food that is being tossed...
There is no real case for your position. These people are just plain too lazy.
We are not as Christians slaves to run around and feed the lazy.

And even here in India.. if they are staving.. while a fat cow waddles by .. you are telling me it is a Christians duty to run up and feed them?
Heck a starving person here could eat quite well on just the millions of stray dogs running around here.
if one was truly starving.. the road kill here is abundant. as it is in the USA.

Honestly.. you are making up work.. there is no starving poor.. especially in the USA.. they are surrounded by food.

God is able to help those people, sure, and often he uses other people.

IF they are un willing to help them self...and God is not helping them..
Why are you running around after them?

Where did I say that?

You stated...
You are morally compulsed to give food to a man about to die of starvation. It has nothing to do with whatever freedoms you think you have, and everything to do with how you treat other people in light of your relationship with God.

It maybe Gods will for that man to suffer such things for rejection of truth.
In many heathen areas God has stretched forth his hand and cursed the land.
so Now these heathen...
who reject the gospel Have some Christian running in there with food..
If God wanted them fed he would not have cursed the land they live on.

[Athanasius]

As I have posted before...

2 Corinthians 9
7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Therefore there is no compulsion.

Well, you know...

v.6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.

v.9 As it is written: "They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor; their righteousness endures forever.”

v.12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of the Lord’s people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God.
v.13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.

This said, Paul isn't really speaking towards giving to the poor, widowed, etc. as, say, James 1 might be; or as Jesus' would have covered in his teaching of the two greatest commandments. v.1 - 5 make it obvious why Paul is writing this, and your application of this portion of Scripture, to the plight of the poor, isn't justified in this text.

....and?
We have a definition of who Christ considers as brethren...therefore we know that when the nations do not treat his brethren well. In the time that he returns.. a judgement will occur.

And feed the poor, clothe the hungry, give drink to the thirsty; visit the jailed...

Yet today among the Poor in the USA obesity is rampant.
They just are not dying of starvation there.
There is plenty of good food that is being tossed...
There is no real case for your position. These people are just plain too lazy.
We are not as Christians slaves to run around and feed the lazy.

And even here in India.. if they are staving.. while a fat cow waddles by .. you are telling me it is a Christians duty to run up and feed them?
Heck a starving person here could eat quite well on just the millions of stray dogs running around here.
if one was truly starving.. the road kill here is abundant. as it is in the USA.

You're assuming a few things:

- health / mental health
- education
- access to transportation
- basic survival skills
- knowledge of food forces
- generosity from others
- resistance to sickness
- and so on and so forth...

Those aren't givens, and you shouldn't be treating them as such. Just as you shouldn't be grouping all poor people in the same boat. But really, Hindu's killing cows and fat Americans living off road kill? Why do you think any of this absolves you of any moral responsibility you have?

Honestly.. you are making up work.. there is no starving poor.. especially in the USA.. they are surrounded by food.

There's no starving North Koreans either, I suppose.

IF they are un willing to help them self...and God is not helping them..
Why are you running around after them?

I'm not able to judge whether or not God is helping them, and I'm not able to judge if they're helping themselves (usually). Scripture doesn't say, 'look after the widowed and orphaned... Unless God has damned them and they aren't helping themselves'. And who said I was running around?

You stated...
You are morally compulsed to give food to a man about to die of starvation. It has nothing to do with whatever freedoms you think you have, and everything to do with how you treat other people in light of your relationship with God.

It maybe Gods will for that man to suffer such things for rejection of truth.

That's not for you to judge. I'm sure God will let you know if you aren't to feed the man about to die of starvation, until then, this is more Hinduanity than Christianity.

In many heathen areas God has stretched forth his hand and cursed the land.
so Now these heathen...
who reject the gospel Have some Christian running in there with food..
If God wanted them fed he would not have cursed the land they live on.

You have no way of knowing, and what Scripture are you using for this position?

[Colight]

There's no starving North Koreans either, I suppose.

And as a bunch of God hating communists they should starve.
Better they starve than be well fed as they charge over the hill to plunge their bayonet into the guts of a freedom Loving American.

Is your position that we should run around and feed a bunch of God hating aggressive communists as part of Christian service?

I'm not able to judge whether or not God is helping them, and I'm not able to judge if they're helping themselves (usually). Scripture doesn't say, 'look after the widowed and orphaned... Unless God has damned them and they aren't helping themselves'. And who said I was running around?

And in the USA, they are looked after..

next..

You're assuming a few things:

- health / mental health
- education
- access to transportation
- basic survival skills
- knowledge of food forces
- generosity from others
- resistance to sickness
- and so on and so forth...

A lot of stuff to consider.. so this whole feeding thing will became a all day event.. guess we will have to cut bible class to go feed people.
Seems God is not able to keep people fed... so it is on us... on ward Christians soldiers.
Maybe we can erect a gold cross to carry before us.. like they did in the crusades.

Those aren't givens, and you shouldn't be treating them as such. Just as you shouldn't be grouping all poor people in the same boat. But really, Hindu's killing cows and fat Americans living off road kill? Why do you think any of this absolves you of any moral responsibility you have?

In the siege of Jerusalem, they ate their own kids.
So if a person is really starving,,, road kill would be a delight.
Therefore I do not have a moral responsibility to cater food to the lazy, with menus that are fitting to their religious choices or diet choices..
We are not to be caters for Jeszus to people who have not missed a meal since being infants, then call that Christian service.
It is time to get real on this.

That's not for you to judge. I'm sure God will let you know if you aren't to feed the man about to die of starvation, until then, this is more Hinduanity than Christianity.

This may sound harsh.
But in some nations to have them dying of starvation is a wonderful thing...
for if they stay active and fit their wicked ways will spread.
The sickness of their soul has spread to their land..

Jesus Christ controls history..
If their fields are dry and their flocks wither.. there is judgement on them.
Do you think it comes as a surprise to God that his judgements have the result of people starving to death?

You have no way of knowing, and what Scripture are you using for this position?

Is your God living and alert to the world..
Mine is.
We know Gods judges nations and peoples.


Lev 26

19 I will also break down your pride of power; I will also make your sky like iron and your earth like bronze.
20 Your strength will be spent uselessly, for your land will not yield its produce and the trees of the land will not yield their fruit.

What is the result of this ???
STARVATION !!! by Gods will as a form a judgement.
Now when God is judging a land.. then we hustle in there with food to a evil people who reject God..
there is really no blessing in that act..
They need the gospel and thru that God will perhaps relent his judgement.
If not then they should enjoy that which they have sown.

Or is it that we as Christians should disagree with Gods judgements.. question Gods will.. where will that get us should we do that?

I disagree with the whole attitude of running around feeding the poor, who are not really poor..
it does not offer a divine solution or attitude...
it only focuses human activity... man relying of the strength of man.
It is of the mind set....
I go and feed some people there fore that makes me good with God..
there is little to no focus on doctrine or teaching these people a foundation of a relationship with God..
Instead they show up for a free meal.

Men working under the banner of a cross are still men working.. not God.
Men working in the name of God are still men working.. not God.

Therefore it is a doctrine of carnality, that distorts the true state of poverty that Christ was addressing.

and ignores..
Matthew 4
4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'"

If they do not live from the word of God,,, why should they have the bread of God?
Let their gods provide.

[Cyberseeker]

... This may sound harsh. But in some nations to have them dying of starvation is a wonderful thing...
for if they stay active and fit their wicked ways will spread.

Harsh? 'Carnal' might be a better word in your case Colight.

[Colight]

Harsh? 'Carnal' might be a better word in your case Colight.

Was it carnal of the Lord to order the slaughter of the Canaanites?
Is it carnal of the Lord to with hold the rains needed to have crops grow?

Is God wrong when he does these judgements?
If not.. then why am I wrong when I state... let them enjoy the wrath God has given them?
If they do not like these tribulations.. them maybe they should seek God.

I just do not see precedence... where Christians should rush in to areas of evil to lessen the judgement of God upon a unrepentant people.

Even Paul turned over unrepentant people to Satan for discipline

Paul also states..
1 cor 5

11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
....
13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

The wicked will be Judged, ruin and starvation etc... is part of that judgement..
If they do not like this, then let them repent..
Since when is judgement supposed to be something pleasant?

Look at Haiti.. Billions spent there yet nothing seems to progress.

It is not a economic solution they need, rather a spiritual one..but they are not open to that spiritual solution ... so the quagmire continues.
.

[Watchman]

Matthew 5:43-44 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you..."

[Athanasius]

And as a bunch of God hating communists they should starve.
Better they starve than be well fed as they charge over the hill to plunge their bayonet into the guts of a freedom Loving American.

Are you being serious?

Is your position that we should run around and feed a bunch of God hating aggressive communists as part of Christian service?

Matthew 5:43-44 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you...

And in the USA, they are looked after..

next..

You're being a bit thick, aren't you? Who do you think is looking after these people?

A lot of stuff to consider.. so this whole feeding thing will became a all day event.. guess we will have to cut bible class to go feed people.
Seems God is not able to keep people fed... so it is on us... on ward Christians soldiers.
Maybe we can erect a gold cross to carry before us.. like they did in the crusades.

This isn't a response, and you're ignoring what are very serious complications to your 'all poor are fat, lazy Americans'.

In the siege of Jerusalem, they ate their own kids.
So if a person is really starving,,, road kill would be a delight.
Therefore I do not have a moral responsibility to cater food to the lazy, with menus that are fitting to their religious choices or diet choices..
We are not to be caters for Jeszus to people who have not missed a meal since being infants, then call that Christian service.
It is time to get real on this.

Hmm...

First century Jews ate their children, therefore 21st century road kill is a delight. How is this anything but a truly dumb argument? Why not just say, 'road kill is a delight, you could be dead'? But that's not the point, the point was that road kill isn't a solution, nor is a religious Hindu killing cows, and the whole suggestion is idiotic, if you're being serious.

This may sound harsh.
But in some nations to have them dying of starvation is a wonderful thing...
for if they stay active and fit their wicked ways will spread.
The sickness of their soul has spread to their land..

Who is taking the place of God, now?

Jesus Christ controls history..
If their fields are dry and their flocks wither.. there is judgement on them.
Do you think it comes as a surprise to God that his judgements have the result of people starving to death?

You haven't answered yet. Where is anything like this evidenced in the New Testament? You aren't God that you can tell if someone is being judged by their position in life.

Is your God living and alert to the world..
Mine is.
We know Gods judges nations and peoples.

And nothing you can quote (in context) is going to absolve you of any of Jesus' commandments.

Lev 26

19 I will also break down your pride of power; I will also make your sky like iron and your earth like bronze.
20 Your strength will be spent uselessly, for your land will not yield its produce and the trees of the land will not yield their fruit.

What is the result of this ???
STARVATION !!! by Gods will as a form a judgement.
Now when God is judging a land.. then we hustle in there with food to a evil people who reject God..
there is really no blessing in that act..
They need the gospel and thru that God will perhaps relent his judgement.
If not then they should enjoy that which they have sown.

Leviticus 26 is God talking to His Jewish people, and has nothing to do with God punishing other nations. Genesis 41 has Joseph preparing Egypt for famine. If you were on the outside looking in, would you declare Egypt to be under judgment, and Joseph to be under opposition to God? Your outlook really isn't very Christlike, on this.

Or is it that we as Christians should disagree with Gods judgements.. question Gods will.. where will that get us should we do that?

Appearances can be deceiving, and where some might say 'rich people are blessed of God', you're saying 'poor people are under judgment'. I'm pretty sure Jesus abolished that idiotic idea.

I disagree with the whole attitude of running around feeding the poor, who are not really poor..
it does not offer a divine solution or attitude...
it only focuses human activity... man relying of the strength of man.
It is of the mind set....
I go and feed some people there fore that makes me good with God..
there is little to no focus on doctrine or teaching these people a foundation of a relationship with God..
Instead they show up for a free meal.

Speak for yourself.

Men working under the banner of a cross are still men working.. not God.
Men working in the name of God are still men working.. not God.

Therefore it is a doctrine of carnality, that distorts the true state of poverty that Christ was addressing.

Christ spoke of both physical poverty, and physical poverty. He did heal the crowds that gathered around him, after all.

and ignores..
Matthew 4
4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'"

If they do not live from the word of God,,, why should they have the bread of God?
Let their gods provide.

Really, really out of context. This isn't saying, 'don't take care of the poor'.

[the rookie]

Folks, this conversation has wandered so far from the reservation (meaning: the OP) that it's time to bring it to a close. Thanks for participating!