Islamic Beast???

[Faithful 1]

What's the possibility that (Scripturally) the 10 horns of the "Beast" of Revelation Chap. 17: (vs. 10 through 16) is actually an Islamic Alliance (rather than the usual stuff about Rome)....much of which we see forming these days in the Middle East.?? Islam is far more anti-Christ than Rome, and seems to be the center of the world stage around Israel....

Haven't been around here much...so I'll just try to listen to some ideas...... pro or con.

Faithful

[dan]

Of course.

As the world situation now stands, the possibility of the RCC killing Christians for fun is zero.

The possibility of Radical Islam killing Christians for fun is 100%.

Similarly, the probability that Gog (Russia) will support the RCC in it's bid to kill Christians for fun is zero, especially since they see the need for the Pope to be assassinated. (Yes, Russia paid for the shooter and supplied the training and the gun for the first attempt on the Pope, Islam supplied the shooter)

As for the chance that Gog will support Islam in it's bid to kill Christians, well, they've been doing it since 1960.

[DurbanDude]

What's the possibility that (Scripturally) the 10 horns of the "Beast" of Revelation Chap. 17: (vs. 10 through 16) is actually an Islamic Alliance (rather than the usual stuff about Rome)....much of which we see forming these days in the Middle East.?? Islam is far more anti-Christ than Rome, and seems to be the center of the world stage around Israel....

Haven't been around here much...so I'll just try to listen to some ideas...... pro or con.

Faithful

I am starting to believe the beast will be a ten nation Middle Eastern confederation with Israel and Turkey at the helm.

I believe Daniel 2 is showing the iron kingdom of Rome (Western Europe) having two end-times capitals (the two feet of iron and clay). These are the capitals of Rome and Istanbul (prev Constantinople).

I believe Daniel 7 is showing that the fourth kingdom of Rome (Western Europe) will set up a ten horned region (Turkey/Israel/Middle East) of which the little horn (Israel) will have directly subdue 3 of these ten countries even though having power over all ten regions.

I believe Rev 13 is showing that the appearance of the ten horned beast (Middle East) is supported by the two-horned beast (Rome/Istanbul)

I believe that Rev 17 is showing that the city of Rome is the power behind the Middle-Eastern beast that arises.

So it is Rome (Catholic), but its also Istanbul (Islam), the other capital of Rome. Roman/Islamic persecution of the true Christian church that does not fall under the RCI umbrella.

[Faithful 1]

I am starting to believe the beast will be a ten nation Middle Eastern confederation with Israel and Turkey at the helm.

Good, Durban;; I've not yet seen any Biblical evidence that would preclude such an Islamic Federation (with possibly Russia included)
And thanks for responding and uses Biblical references in your succeeding responses.

I believe Daniel 2 is showing the iron kingdom of Rome (Western Europe) having two end-times capitals (the two feet of iron and clay). These are the capitals of Rome and Istanbul (prev Constantinople).

OK; why Istanbul, rather than say, Tehran.

I believe Daniel 7 is showing that the fourth kingdom of Rome (Western Europe) will set up a ten horned region (Turkey/Israel/Middle East) of which the little horn (Israel) will have directly subdue 3 of these ten countries even though having power over all ten regions.

So you are STILL saying the 10 nation (10 horns) is old Roman Empire...?? And now you are adding Israel to the mix of the ten horns....? Where is the Scripture for THAT ???

I believe Rev 13 is showing that the appearance of the ten horned beast (Middle East) is supported by the two-horned beast (Rome/Istanbul)

Ok; That's plausable (but now you seem to be ambiguous from your previous statement of 10 horns being Roman)....I never took note of the two little lamb horns before.... could be two capitals.

I believe that Rev 17 is showing that the city of Rome is the power behind the Middle-Eastern beast that arises.

Can't see that ; again give me the exact verse...

Faithful

[DurbanDude]

OK; why Istanbul, rather than say, Tehran.

Its specifically because this prophecy is an ongoing timeline starting with the Babylonian empire. When it refers to the iron empire being split into two feet of iron and clay, the verse specifically states this is the DIVIDED empire. Rome being the fourth empire is normally obvious to most people, because Rome did actually conquer Greece which is named as the third empire. So to work out what these two feet of iron and clay are, we need to understand "clay" and also understand when the Roman empire divided into two empires.

Clay is a symbol for religion, good clay makes good pots, brittle or miry clay makes bad pots. These two feet do not just have the normal "metal" (military) power of the 4 empires (gold/silver/bronze/iron) but also have the power of bad religion mixed into the empire.

In 330 AD the emperor Constantine built Constantinople. Constantine sponsored the consoladation of Christianity and made it the state religion. So it was in 330 AD that the empire of iron in Rome, became an empire of iron and clay in both Rome and Constantinople. These are the two feet of iron and clay. The nature of these two cities has changed over time, the Bishop of Rome became the most prominent and powerful figure in Europe, and the Byzantium Caesar was the most powerful man in the east. Then the Moslems took over, called themselves Caesar , based themselves in the same city, and we had this continuation of religious power centred on Constantinople (now Istanbul). Same two cities, religious capitals of military and religious power until Jesus comes (the stone of Daniel 2).

So you are STILL saying the 10 nation (10 horns) is old Roman Empire...?? And now you are adding Israel to the mix of the ten horns....? Where is the Scripture for THAT ???

Lol! No, the fourth beast, Rome, sets up the ten horn kingdom. It is not the ten horn kingdom, Rome creates the ten horn kingdom in the Middle East. This implies that the ten horns of the fourth beast, and the little horn are geographically seperate to Western Europe, and yet are set up to further the purposes of Western Europe. I believe we are seeing this in our own times, when western style democracy is invading the Middle East, and at USA expense, Europe's backyard is being sidelined as a military threat. Only Iran is left as a bastion of Islamic power. Turkey is the West's ally in these operations, using Western military prowess to dominate the Kurds in their own country, in Iraq and in Syria.

Ok; That's plausable (but now you seem to be ambiguous from your previous statement of 10 horns being Roman)....I never took note of the two little lamb horns before.... could be two capitals.

Well like I said , Western Europe creates a Middle-Eastern Empire. This does not mean that Western Europe is in the Middle East (of course, now that would be silly!)

Can't see that ; again give me the exact verse..

Rev 17:18 defines this whore as the city that rules the kings of the earth ie Rome.
all the descriptions of this Western Europe power are accurate descriptions of western Europe under the ancient first century Roman Empire, and yet still describe Western Europe of today. (great trade, scarlet robes of the RCI, golden cups etc)

Now this Roman city is described as sitting on the beast. Sitting sort of implies "riding", controlling, being in a superior position to the one being sat on. So the city of Rome which represents the West, is in control of the Middle Eastern beast.

[John 8:32]

What's the possibility that (Scripturally) the 10 horns of the "Beast" of Revelation Chap. 17: (vs. 10 through 16) is actually an Islamic Alliance (rather than the usual stuff about Rome)....much of which we see forming these days in the Middle East.?? Islam is far more anti-Christ than Rome, and seems to be the center of the world stage around Israel....

Haven't been around here much...so I'll just try to listen to some ideas...... pro or con.

Faithful

Beast power is Germany there are ten kings aligned with him. According to the image in Dan 2, probably 5 Eastern European and 5 Western European. There will be a great false church behind this Beast power and this harlot has daughters.

Beast...

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

False church...

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Ruling over...

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

[Faithful 1]

Beast power is Germany there are ten kings aligned with him. .

Yeah; well; that is the standard asssumption .....which is, BTW, what I am questioning....and asking if there is any Scriptural basis which would preclude an Islamic (or Arab) 10 nation Beast confederacy instead.

Faithful

[Faithful 1]

Rev 17:18 defines this whore as the city that rules the kings of the earth ie Rome.
all the descriptions of this Western Europe power are accurate descriptions of western Europe under the ancient first century Roman Empire, and yet still describe Western Europe of today. (great trade, scarlet robes of the RCI, golden cups etc)

Now this Roman city is described as sitting on the beast. Sitting sort of implies "riding", controlling, being in a superior position to the one being sat on. So the city of Rome which represents the West, is in control of the Middle Eastern beast.

Yes, but Rev. 17:18 merely describes the hoe' (as Southern preachers say it ) which is the "religious" or possibly even the economic system and not the 10 nation political system per se.
I think the false prophet must arise from this "other beast" with 2 horns. However, my main concern was about the first Beast arising from Arab nations as opposed to the Europen ones.
Thanks for your ideas. I'm not at all doctrinal yet on THAT issue....and lookiing for references that seem to indicate Arab (Middle east) nations.

In that regard I think Daniel Chapter 11, beginning with vs 6 seems to indicate that it is the surroundig Arab nations (and Russia) that are involved exclusively leading up to the very end.

Faithful

BTW, I cannot see how you are including Israel in the 10 nation Beast; sound FAR fetched.......how do you come to that conclusion scripturally ?

[Old man]

I believe Daniel 2 is showing the iron kingdom of Rome (Western Europe) having two end-times capitals (the two feet of iron and clay). These are the capitals of Rome and Istanbul (prev Constantinople).

Many people want to make a big issue about the number of arms, legs, feet or toes the image has. Yet neither the dream nor the interpretation, mention anything about the number of feet, toes, legs, arms, etc. This is because the number of body parts is irrelevant. What is important is what they are made out of (head of gold & feet and toes of iron and clay) as Daniel indicates in his interpretation. Does the image have ten toes, two feet, two legs, two arms, etc.? Probably; (I don’t know how anatomically detailed and accurate the statue was, I didn’t see it.) But if you were going to make a statue of a man (as this seems to be) how many toes, feet, legs and arms would you give it? I would think that it would sensible to give the statue the proper number of parts wouldn’t it? If the number of body parts is not specifically mentioned and included in the interpretation as being important then they are insignificant. If God doesn’t point them out to be important then they probably aren’t. He is; after all, the one who gave the dream and told Daniel how to interpret it in the first place and Daniel didn’t seem to think they were important or significant enough to mention so why should we?

[John 8:32]

Many people want to make a big issue about the number of arms, legs, feet or toes the image has. Yet neither the dream nor the interpretation, mention anything about the number of feet, toes, legs, arms, etc. This is because the number of body parts is irrelevant. What is important is what they are made out of (head of gold & feet and toes of iron and clay) as Daniel indicates in his interpretation. Does the image have ten toes, two feet, two legs, two arms, etc.? Probably; (I don’t know how anatomically detailed and accurate the statue was, I didn’t see it.) But if you were going to make a statue of a man (as this seems to be) how many toes, feet, legs and arms would you give it? I would think that it would sensible to give the statue the proper number of parts wouldn’t it? If the number of body parts is not specifically mentioned and included in the interpretation as being important then they are insignificant. If God doesn’t point them out to be important then they probably aren’t. He is; after all, the one who gave the dream and told Daniel how to interpret it in the first place and Daniel didn’t seem to think they were important or significant enough to mention so why should we?

I politely disagree...

Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

The Holy Roman Empire, the feet are at the end of the legs showing time frame.

Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

We have ten toes...

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Two feet, one Western, one Eastern. Although they give their allegiance to the Beast, the iron and clay shows they will not be homogenous.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Shows the time frame. The Kingdom of God is set up upon the earth.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

A very short time.

Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

The return of Christ and the resurrection of the Saints...

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The body parts are significant. God assumes we have enough sense to realize there are ten toes, five on each foot. He also assumes we understand that two legs are not one, that there is a division. Rome/Constantinople, Hitler/Mussolini. The Coming Beast will also be divided in some fashion.

And then again, is all evident about Bible prophecy today?

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Technology remained approximately the same for about 5800 years. Donkey carts and Oxen for power. When did knowledge burgeon? With the invention of the internet and I am not blaming all this on Al Gore. LOL. Anyhoo, Daniel said the prophecies were sealed until the time of the end. We have to arrive at that time for the details to become plain.

Another little sidenote is that in Daniel, the further one looks into the future, the less detail one sees, whereas the book of Revelation is the opposite. The further one looks into the future, the more detail one sees.

[John 8:32]

Just some more thinking on the this subject...

Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Dan 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

Modern day Jordan, a look at the 83rd Psalm below shows this.

Dan 11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
Dan 11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

The KoS does something that provokes the KoN to react violently. The KoS is predominately Muslim. This pretty much rules out the KoS as the Beast, since the Beast decimates the KoS (Egypt, Libya, Ethiopia).

Now factor in Psa 83

Psa 83:2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
Psa 83:3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, (Judah) and consulted against thy hidden ones.(Rev 12:14-16)
Psa 83:4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
Psa 83:5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
Psa 83:6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
Psa 83:7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
Psa 83:8 Assur (Assyria, modern day Germany) also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah. (Germany and Jordan are confederates)

There is much to be said about the church's place of safety being in the nation of Jordan. If anyone is interested, I will put together the scriptures that show this and post them.

[Saved7]

What's the possibility that (Scripturally) the 10 horns of the "Beast" of Revelation Chap. 17: (vs. 10 through 16) is actually an Islamic Alliance (rather than the usual stuff about Rome)....much of which we see forming these days in the Middle East.?? Islam is far more anti-Christ than Rome, and seems to be the center of the world stage around Israel....

Haven't been around here much...so I'll just try to listen to some ideas...... pro or con.

Faithful

I've been calling it Islam for years. Many have. So the possibilities are great. It could ALSO include Rome or the eastern parts of Rome that broke away and became a part of the Islamic Empire early on. Considering that the beast in Revelation is made up of all the parts of the beasts in Daniel and those parts are majority middle eastern Islamic nations, it's highly probable that the beast is Islamic.

I actually made a thread showing a map of these things, showing scriptures on what nations make up that beast in Revelation and those beasts in Daniel. Too many people are ignoring the creatures that make up the beast.

[esper88]

An important thing to consider is that a large part of the reason we would consider the Islamic nations as the "Beast" in Revelations is because they exist during our time period. If we are to accept that Revelations is metaphorical and that a chimeric beast will not literally rise up to oppose Christ, then we must also realize the nature of metaphor. Metaphors do not have one meaning and will largely reflect the views of the one who reads it.

Let's say someone during the time of Egypt's prominence said, "Egypt is like a lion." Perhaps at the time he meant that Egypt was strong and powerful. But suppose someone during the decline of Egypt interpretted the same statement to reflect that Egypt was going extinct and was needlessly warlike. A metaphor has no set meaning, and both interpretations are technically "right".

In the same way we can't say that the beast is definitely the Islamic alliance. Rather, we can say this is our beast. Our manifestation of opposing power that will be overcome in the end by the power of Christ.

The prophecy says, "The time is at hand", and it has said this for all ages. The prophecy is constantly being fulfilled through different instances of the metaphors within it. I believe that the true wisdom of the prophecy is that whatever beast-like people and whores arise, they will always be end up being burned away by the power of Christ.

[Saved7]

I'm afraid your point may be good in "the world" but biblically speaking, metaphors remain the same. If the metaphors for who those animals represented had changed, then why even use a metaphor for a creature made of all those same animals as found in Daniel? Why not instead just design a whole new animal for the Revelation beast then? God repeats and uses His own words over and over in order to help us interpret His Word. You use the Word to interpret the Word, this fact remains the same even in metaphors.

[esper88]

The point I'm making is that to early Christians Revelations referred to Rome, its 7 hills and Nero, for the most part. But I seriously doubt the end times have passed, and that the significance of Revelations has passed with it. Now we're saying that the Islamic nations are what the prophecy speaks of, but is this time in history really going to be the time when Revelations is fulfilled? By a "beast" that fits the description in the same abstract way as Rome? I doubt it.

The power of using the symbol of the beast is that it keeps us vigilant. We can interpret the world around us to represent the symbols of the prophecy, which allows us to always be ready for when the end times come. This time may be now, or it may be 1,000 years in the future, or later. People in the past faced the same dilemma. After the terrorist nations are crushed and left behind, we will realize that this was not the end times, just as people in the past have. Hitler's regime resembles the anti-christ much closer than the Islamic regimes: I imagine the people of that time thought Hitler was the beast.

If we're to say that the image of the beast is not a "metaphor", this says that eventually a beast which literally fits the description in Revelations (and Daniel) will eventually come to Earth. This is very possible, and might just be what is going to happen in the end times. But in the meantime the power of the beast is that it can represent so much more than itself, being a subconscious image. By telling us about the anti-christ in such an abstract way, we can associate worldly events with the image of the beast, and bring our faith directly into the way we view the world. We can conceptualize the world through the tools the bible gives us, and grow in our faith that much more by seeing the world through a holy lens.

Jesus spoke in parables rather than giving out dry information because it's not just the truth that's important, but the way we realize it. We're not all literally plants that will be reaped, but we can conceptualize the idea of the end times through this metaphor. In the literal end times we will have a definitive reaping, but in the meantime we can appreciate that with each "harvest", or each new generation, the good overcome the wicked. We can see through the image of the reaping that God's message exudes in all of his creation, and does not necessarily denote one occurrence. Everything is interrelated in God's universe.

I'm being very verbose, but my point is that while there may be a "single meaning" for the beast, and while the metaphor may "remain the same", the power of symbolic imagery is that we can see it in more than what is denoted. I don't doubt that there will be a beast, or that there will be a reaping, but the way we learn about these things allows us to keep the Word alive in everything we see.