Article: As a Little Child

[Sojourner55]

You can view the page at http://bibleforums.org/content.php/1...a-Little-Child

[Redeemed by Grace]

Hi Sojourner55,

Hope all is well. Knowing you over the years, I think I know what you are striving to show here, and in that would agree with the spirit of the intent. However, I would slightly challenge you to say that children are not born innocent. Unknowing, untaught/learned, would be better, but innocent equates to not guilty, and all men are guilty before God without Christ, even babes.

Now the argument could then follow, 'but what about those babes who died young?' {for which is not what your thread is about but would be common to my reply that children are not born innocent} To that - I'd trust God to declare for His glory who is covered by the blood and who is not. But again, to the spirit of what you want to convey, I'd agree.


Blessings

RbG

[Sojourner55]

Hi Redeemed. Hope all is well with you as well. Obviously, a young child who becomes an adult is going to have to meet the terms of salvation. But I believe it's correct to say such a child innocent of any wrong-doing is "innocent" before God--or else he or she would not be saved if he or she dies before the age of accountability. Out of curiosity, what do you think Jesus meant when He said we must become like a little child in order to to enter the kingdom?

[Redeemed by Grace]

Hi SJ,

Humbly, I see you implying innocence to fit as a meaning towards children, when it's really behavior not innocence... A child is dependent on his father and mother, for a child still needs to be taught right from wrong, for wrong he naturally knows..... he is born a sinner... So you may see a child as being innocence, but what you are describing using scripture is his behavior.

And they were bringing children to Him so that He might lay hands on them; and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it at all." (Mark 10:13-15)

Hope all is well,

RbG

[Sojourner55]

Certainly every single person is born into Satan's kingdom, and must be born spiritually in order to leave it and enter God's kingdom. Yet, as I said, an infant or child can hardly be accountable for sin until they develop the capacity for the very concept of sin.

As you noted, it is the lesson of the article and its spiritual application that matters. Point is, Jesus used the qualities and attributes as representative of those who will enter the kingdom. I think the point of contention here is actually more a matter of semantics rather than theology, so we'll just drop the matter, and let the spirit of the article stand or fall on its own merits.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Howdy Sj,

Not to get lost though, is that a child, no matter how old, as with growing into an adult, is not born in innocence, but born in sin. The purpose of Jesus' focus on children is dependance. A child is dependent on their parents as we are dependent on Christ. A child, as hard as it is to say as a mother holds a sweet babe in her arms, is just as guilty of sin as an adult.

Again just to clarify that innocence is not what Jesus was saying that a child is.

[Sojourner55]

Why are you unable this drop this bone of contention and focus on the lesson itself? You're taking my statement that a person is innocent of wrong-doing until they learn the difference between right and wrong, and making it seem as if I'm saying we are not born in sin. Once again, absent your added stipulation of a child growing into an adult, if an infant or toddler dies, they are obviously deemed not guilty of sin as far as God is concerned. Otherwise, they would go straight to hell when they die. I really don't believe infants and toddlers are suffering in hell because they were born in a lost condition.

I fully understand that every person is born in a lost state because of Adam's sin. I'm not saying otherwise. But I'm not sure you understand that God will not judge a child for sin until they are at least old enough to understand what sin is. There are only two reasons why that would be the case:

1. They are not condemned for their unsaved condition until they are able understand sin and salvation. 2. God provides some legal loophole that allows them immunity from prosecution until they're older. I choose to believe the former.

Please don't mar a good Bible lesson by contending over a theological difference that does not exist. By "innocence," I refer to the absence of purposeful, wrongful actions, and the absence of culpability for sin--not the absence of sin itself.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Hi Sj,

Sorry that you feel it's a bone of contention, but that's not the intent at all. Jesus does not say a child is innocent, you do. Jesus does say that a christian needs to be as a child and that is dependent....

A child will learn from those he is dependent on. By the time one is an adult, how many who are old desire to be dependent and learn? To say a child is innocent has nothing to do with the fact of scripture, for all men are conceived in iniquity. And to say that God saves all children if they die, is a noble thought, but lacks scriptural support. You can only hope, as do I that that is the case, but you can't blanket state that God saves all children who died, for all children do not start out saved and then lose it some time unknown, and then become saved again when they are older.

The more you write, the more error I am seeing in what you're writing, You are declaring that an infant or toddler dying - is automatically saved? Where in scripture is this stated? Again, it's an admirable hope, but you can't teach that it's a blanket truth. For what age does this toddler cross over and become "non-Innocence?"

The only way one is non-innocent is through the blood of Jesus. Thus this passage is not on the innocence of a child, but of the humbleness of being dependent and the need to the training of a child, for how many adults can say that they are humble.... dependent upon God.... and teachable of the ways of God?

That's all it is my brother, innocence is a noble thought, but that is not what Jesus is saying... Being dependent, trusting God, wanting God, knowing God, that is what Jesus is driving towards.

For His Glory,

RbG

[Sojourner55]

I'm sorry you think that babies may be screaming in hell. I don't. I cannot provide Scripture that directly supports my position, but then, neither can you. As such, you really have no basis for declaring me guilty of "errors."

We'll have to believe what we believe for now, and ask the Lord the truth of the matter one day. In the meantime, I choose to cling to my belief that God does not condemn to hell, a child who is not able to understand that he or she needs a Savior. You are certainly free to hold a contrary opinion.

I'm also sorry this is all you got out of the article.

[esper88]

This is a very insightful article. I often reflect on the idea of being a "son of man", as is written about in the book Job. While the term "son of man" is often used to refer to the savior, it is also a way for us to understand what it means to be born again. Those who are born again are children, born from their own womb, impregnated with the holy spirit. This is my conceptualization, but I believe this is reasonably universal.

Innocent, Faithful, Persistent. Very keen observations. I personally think of my relationship to my fiance as a son-mother relationship, at least relative to other relationships. Babies cling to their mothers and have one mother alone. This is how we should be as Christians, not engaging in meaningless relationships with women that we discard later on, but clinging to the one woman who will forever be our wife in the same way our mother will forever be our mother.

There's much to be said on the subject of the "sons of men". It's a spot on metaphor for the manners of the faithful.

[Redeemed by Grace]

I'm sorry you think that babies may be screaming in hell. I don't. I cannot provide Scripture that directly supports my position, but then, neither can you. As such, you really have no basis for declaring me guilty of "errors."

We'll have to believe what we believe for now, and ask the Lord the truth of the matter one day. In the meantime, I choose to cling to my belief that God does not condemn to hell, a child who is not able to understand that he or she needs a Savior. You are certainly free to hold a contrary opinion.

I'm also sorry this is all you got out of the article.

Brother... scriptures do not hold multiple interpretations, for if so then the hearer supplies the understanding. When you or I write a paper as you have done here, you do so for proclamation, but also for examination. If what we write is congruent to the word, then there comes an amen. If there is a doubt, then comes a challenge. Thus a challenge of the teaching that children are born innocent. The bible declares that all men are sinners and all are born in iniquity.

As the OP's author, you are the one who is putting out a position, thus you are the one that if a doubt comes, is to show why from a scriptural basis why you say it is such. In a term, when questioned, you need to defend your position. Show why, not look at is as personal attack.

Nowhere within your post does Jesus declare that children are innocent.... that is your reading into the text. Thus instead of looking at my replies as negative, look at my replies as constructive. Thus you can either take the feedback as an opportunity to show why through scriptures, or come to an understanding that yepper, it's not there.

As far as babes who die being in hell, the word is pretty silent on that... so for me, I don't teach one way or the other. I do however teach to trust that God knows all things and is just.... so I'm pleased to rest in His way.

I hope you understand my heart towards you is not evil, but love.

For His glory,

RbG

[esper88]

Where in the scripture does it say children have unwaivering faith? Where in the scripture does it say they are persistent? Should we discount the whole article because citation can't be made for every point the article makes? Sojourner is speaking from his own experience.

How about this: Children are innocenter. They're not perfectly pure because of original sin, but they're certainly more innocent than most adults. The article is expressing an idea about being innocent before God, and perhaps its better to take the words for what they are instead of getting wrapped up in semantics.

[Ta-An]

The article is expressing an idea about being innocent before God, and perhaps its better to take the words for what they are instead of getting wrapped up in semantics.

Amen!! !

[Sojourner55]

Redeemed,
I fully understand the point you're trying to make. But I'm not certain you realize that this exchange is becoming far too protracted for so small a point. You have ignored both the clarified, non-salvific context in which I use the word "innocent, and my request that we simply "agree to disagree." Consider this my final reply on this matter.

First of all, the article seeks only to highlight child-like characteristics lacking in adults that we would deem proper for citizens of the kingdom of God--and so are reasonably inferred in the context of Jesus' statement. The article was not intended to be some theological treatise to be debated on the basis of doctrinal fidelity. I believe most people would agree that infants and small children are unaware of both the concept of sin, and their need for a Savior. As such, I don't believe God will condemn to eternal judgment, those not yet old enough to understand those concepts. You are free to believe otherwise. If you have Scriptural evidence that refutes my position, present it. Otherwise, please stop implying that I am circumventing Scripture and Biblical truths to make a point.

Jesus implied that the nature and qualities children are representative of those who enter the kingdom, and that "unless we receive the kingdom as a little child, we shall in no wise enter in." Those statements are wide open for us to ponder and delve into--and the traits I expounded on are certainly ones possessed by children that God would expect from His children. Yes, I am extrapolating from the text, but I feel it's very sound exytapolation.

Being so meticulous in details yourself, I'm you can show me where in the text you see Jesus implying that He was referring specifically to the quality of "dependence," as you opine. Can you find that in the text--or are you inferring it? Are you engaging in a little private interpretation? If so, you are guilty of taking the same liberties you accuse me of. I firmly believe the three child-like characteristics I have deduced from Jesus' statement are at least as valid and pertinent as the "dependence" you infer.

With that, I feel I've already expended far more time and energy than this explanation deserves. I only hope no one else finds this point to be the distracting, stumbling block it has become for you. God bless.

[Sojourner55]

Where in the scripture does it say children have unwaivering faith? Where in the scripture does it say they are persistent? Should we discount the whole article because citation can't be made for every point the article makes? Sojourner is speaking from his own experience.

How about this: Children are innocenter. They're not perfectly pure because of original sin, but they're certainly more innocent than most adults. The article is expressing an idea about being innocent before God, and perhaps its better to take the words for what they are instead of getting wrapped up in semantics.

Hello esper88,

Glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels Redeemed by Grace is caught up in semantics. I was beginning to wonder. Thank you, and I'm pleased that you recognized the validity of the points I made about the child-like qualities.

Also, I agree with you about the "son of man" concept. I believe when Jesus used it of Himself, we see instances of Him directly speaking as God, of the temple in which He resided. As when when He stated that He Himself would raise that body up after three days (John 2:19); likewise, the righteous dead at the last day (John 6:39-54).

Indeed, aside from being God our Savior manifest in the flesh, Jesus is the "prototype" for the children of God: human being indwelt, led by, and empowered by the Spirit of God within. And I believe the same child-like qualities Jesus alluded to are representative of those that God both desires and requires in His children.