Having no sin

[PJW]

1 John 1:8- 9
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.[/QUOTE]

Can't you say "I have no sin" after you have been cleansed of ALL unrighteousness?
John is speaking of those who walk in darkness, who cannot say they have no sin (1 Jo 1:6)

[claybevan]

1 John 1:8- 9
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Can't you say "I have no sin" after you have been cleansed of ALL unrighteousness?
John is speaking of those who walk in darkness, who cannot say they have no sin (1 Jo 1:6)[/QUOTE]

Hello again PJW,

Jesus took my sins upon himself that I could stand before God unblemished, yes, but for me to say that I know longer sin even though forgiven would be a lie.
My life is a constant battle to live by the His commands and I fall short everyday but I know if I confess my sins I will be forgiven.
What the Holy Spirit does do is convict me of me sin, he makes me feel so uncomfortable that I cannot NOT repent.

I know you and I have had this conversation before, I don't know where you live or what you do but can you honestly say to me that since you have received Christ into your life and have been filled with the Holy Spirit you have never once sinned, you have never since then had to confess a sin?
If you can honestly answer yes to this then I really do stand in awe.

John as far as I know was writing to the churches in Ephesus and they would have been believers.
What do you make of the verse below.
Luke 17:3-4
So watch yourselves! “If another believer sins, rebuke that person; then if there is repentance, forgive. Even if that person wrongs you seven times a day and each time turns again and asks forgiveness, you must forgive.”

Our sins have been forgiven at the cross but our refining is a process that continues throughout our lives and he will not stop until, like the silversmith he can see His reflection in us.

C.S. Lewis said that once we give God permission, by surrendering our lives to Him, He will not stop that process of purifying us no matter how painful or unpleasant it may be.

We would not need to be purified by the refiners fire if we no longer sinned.
We are not perfect just forgiven.
And I thank God that he is guiding, refining and strengthening me, it's a slow process but I will be ready cos he told me so.

[Dani H]

Don't take the bait ... this issue of "can a Christian sin?" has been discussed in other threads to great depths already ....

[BrianW]

Edit to say:

Never mind. Dani's right. I won't take the bait.

[salesman]

If we truly loved one another, would there be war? Would Christian brother kill christian brother to protect land and "rights" if we were focused on a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly one? Think of England and Ireland with Protestants killing Catholics. Think of the War Between the States with Lutherans killing baptists and episcopalians killing methodists. When Lazarus died and Jesus saw the anguish of Mary and Martha he wept. How much more must he weep as we slaughter each other for earthly kingdoms over the centuries? Christ told us to love our enemies and be willing to die for our brothers. He never commands us to protect our freedom, or stand-up for our rights as earthly citizens. He calls us to love everyone. UNCONDITIONALLY!

[PJW]

If we truly loved one another, would there be war? Would Christian brother kill christian brother to protect land and "rights" if we were focused on a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly one? Think of England and Ireland with Protestants killing Catholics. Think of the War Between the States with Lutherans killing baptists and episcopalians killing methodists. When Lazarus died and Jesus saw the anguish of Mary and Martha he wept. How much more must he weep as we slaughter each other for earthly kingdoms over the centuries? Christ told us to love our enemies and be willing to die for our brothers. He never commands us to protect our freedom, or stand-up for our rights as earthly citizens. He calls us to love everyone. UNCONDITIONALLY!

Real Christians don't kill anybody. They will die for you, though.

[-SEEKING-]

Real Christians don't kill anybody. They will die for you, though.

SO they'll commit suicide. That's still killing dude. No matter how you slice it.

Sorry Dani. Couldn't resist. Just out of sheer boredom.

[Slug1]

Real Christians don't kill anybody. They will die for you, though.

Killing is not a sin according to the context of the Bible... so if a person of faith in God was to kill, this would not be sinning anyway.

I guess your statement means that anyone who is Christian but is given provision BY God through a position of employment requiring them to be in a position of authority to kill AND ALSO die for others... does this mean God has led them to employment that MAKES you deem them NOT a real Christian?

[PJW]

[QUOTE=-SEEKING-;2866498]SO they'll commit suicide. That's still killing dude. No matter how you slice it.

Was Jesus' death a suicide? Was Stephen's death a suicide, in Acts 7? They both could have escaped, if they had been over-absorbed with their own lives, but by obeying God, both glorified God with their obedience unto death.
They loved God.

[PJW]

Killing is not a sin according to the context of the Bible... so if a person of faith in God was to kill, this would not be sinning anyway.

I guess your statement means that anyone who is Christian but is given provision BY God through a position of employment requiring them to be in a position of authority to kill AND ALSO die for others... does this mean God has led them to employment that MAKES you deem them NOT a real Christian?

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 Jo 3:10) Explain to me how a man who "loves his brother" can take months of training to kill "his brother"? Who is NOT your brother?

[Slug1]

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 Jo 3:10) Explain to me how a man who "loves his brother" can take months of training to kill "his brother"? Who is NOT your brother?

Is killing a sin or not?

Establish killing is a sin because if you cannot, then you cannot say that killing is of the devil, thus you cannot say that righteousness is less or removed when a Christian kills.

[salesman]

Real Christians don't kill anybody. They will die for you, though.

I agree totally. No greater love has any man, than that he lay down his life for his brother.

[salesman]

Killing is not a sin according to the context of the Bible... so if a person of faith in God was to kill, this would not be sinning anyway.

I guess your statement means that anyone who is Christian but is given provision BY God through a position of employment requiring them to be in a position of authority to kill AND ALSO die for others... does this mean God has led them to employment that MAKES you deem them NOT a real Christian?

In the early church, if you were in the military, you could only be baptized if you agreed to never use your sword, or execute anyone. If you were already baptized and joined the military you were asked to leave the church. To those that had met Paul, Peter, John, and the other disciples this was the meaning of Jesus teaching about loving your enemy. They would not be administrators in the government if they would hold any position that caused them to execute, indict for execution, or imprison others. This is the consistent message in document after document from the first 300 years of our faith. This idea of protecting our selves, our rights, and our country through vilence did not happen until Constantine co-opted Christianity into the government. From the very founding of our faith, the idea of killing for any reason was forbidden. I know that the anti-nicene writings are not scripture, but they are a lot closer to it than you or I. Therefore I put a LOT of weight onto what they say and what they did. For example, I think Clement, who traveled with Paul and is mentioned in Acts, had a better understanding of what Paul wrote than I do as he TALKED TO PAUL IN PERSON.

I am not telling anyone who is or is not a Christian, I am saying that for myself, I could never accept a position or employment that required me to kill.

You have heard it said love your neighbor and hate your enemy, while I say love your enemy...

[salesman]

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 Jo 3:10) Explain to me how a man who "loves his brother" can take months of training to kill "his brother"? Who is NOT your brother?

This world has become one in which Christians kill other Christians over rights, and taxation, and land etc. We in America see this country as good, and anyone else who desires to be a super-power as evil. In the 1500's Europe exploded with catholic countries killing each other and then ganging up on the protestants. Christians slaughtered other Christians in the Revolutionary war, with both sides calling on God for help in the killing. In the War Between the States we killed each other. In the French Revolution the peasant Christians rose up and killed the royal Christians. In the crusades the Christian armies raped and pillaged their way to the Holy Land. In Vietnam we protected our interests by bombing and killing in a war most of the combatants themselves did not understand.

I think the God who said "they will know you are Christians by your love" is very disappointed in us.

[Slug1]

OK... I removed all this debate content from the original thread and created this new thread where all this can be discussed freely and separate from the origianl thread. (Which has been moved back to Growing in Christ)

Someone will still need to establish scripturally that "killing" is a sin. That way if a person who is faithful to God kills, it is a sin in the eyes of God and thus has DONE an unrighteous act.