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Thread: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

  1. #286
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    Re: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by Harrell View Post
    No, I didn’t admit that at all. We wouldn’t even be having this discussion about Revelation were it not for the fact that divaD, in an attempt to prove that Satan has miraculous powers on a par with the Holy Spirit, offered up Rev. 13:3,12 as evidence that Satan has the power to raise the dead.
    Actually I wasn't trying to prove anything of the such, since I have no clue whether satan could actually raise the dead or not. All I know is, the Bible indicates he can perform miracles, or at least what are perceived to be miracles. In my book, raising someone from the dead, well that would fit with a miracle. In the Revelation passage I supplied, someone or something had a deadly wound and was healed. If all this is symbolic, and it very well may be, then the Bible would have to tell us what that is symbolic of somewhere. So unless you can show with Scriptures what this is plainly symbolic of, then IMO, your solution that it's symbolic is no better than someone else's solution that it's meaning literal in some way. Just because this beast isn't a literal beast, that doesn't mean something literal can't happen to whatever the beast symbolizes. So no, I wasn't trying to prove satan could or could not raise the dead. My point was, how can one know for certain that he couldn't, the fact he's somehow able to perform miracles of some kind?

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    Re: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

    And my point is that, if I witness someone raise someone from being dead, I would tend to believe that God did it; as I don't see any Angel having the power to do it; fallen or otherwise.

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    Re: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo View Post
    And my point is that, if I witness someone raise someone from being dead, I would tend to believe that God did it; as I don't see any Angel having the power to do it; fallen or otherwise.
    The enemy came to kill, steal, and destroy. He cannot restore life because he has/knows nothing of it...except that Life has defeated his greatest fear-inducing weapon, death. One cannot give to others what they do not possess (and I'm using great restraint to refrain from making a comment about governments!)

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  4. #289
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    Re: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo View Post
    And my point is that, if I witness someone raise someone from being dead, I would tend to believe that God did it; as I don't see any Angel having the power to do it; fallen or otherwise.


    True. I would likely think the same thing, unless of course it turns out to be the beast that has a deadly wound and is healed. Speaking of that, here's an interesting search I did on Google last night. I typed in "exegesis Revelation 13:12" without the quotes. Some of the links I checked out, the conclusion was that this is meaning a literal resurrection of some kind.

  5. #290
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    Re: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    The enemy came to kill, steal, and destroy. He cannot restore life because he has/knows nothing of it...except that Life has defeated his greatest fear-inducing weapon, death. One cannot give to others what they do not possess (and I'm using great restraint to refrain from making a comment about governments!)

    W
    Come on team.

    If Satan has authority to empower a beast out of the sea to do xyz, then he can heal a would-be mortal wound b4 it kills the beast. more than that, Satan and his demons are spirit creatures, unable to tphyhsically die, so they can appear to die b ut not really die, and then apprear to be resurrected when they take on another physical form or invade another physical creature, etc.

    That said, i dont' think the first beast is a person or a creatyure at all. It is a government. And the mortal wound is likely a military attack on "one of its heads", which would be one of the beasts 7 heads, which are either divisions of the government (regions or nations), and may refer specifically to their human leaders or their governments. I tend toward the latter. But note that the mortal wound is, in any case, not to the Beast, but to one of his heads.

    Rev 13:3I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed.
    (Please don't tell Harrell I said that, or he'll think I'm being symbolical).
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

  6. #291
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    Re: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If Satan has authority to empower a beast out of the sea to do xyz, then he can heal a would-be mortal wound b4 it kills the beast. more than that, Satan and his demons are spirit creatures, unable to tphyhsically die, so they can appear to die b ut not really die, and then apprear to be resurrected when they take on another physical form or invade another physical creature, etc.


    This is close to how I am seeing it. In one of my other posts, I did mention that the Bible indicates satan can perform miracles. But I also stated this as well..."or at least what are perceived to be miracles." Hopefully I'm not giving the impression that I think satan goes around raising the dead like Jesus or the apostles did, because that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

    On a side note, one of our beloved dogs died the other day. She was 12 and 1/2 years old. Since I have other things on my mind, I'm likely not being very clear as to what I am meaning in these latest posts.

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    Re: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    This is close to how I am seeing it. In one of my other posts, I did mention that the Bible indicates satan can perform miracles. But I also stated this as well..."or at least what are perceived to be miracles." Hopefully I'm not giving the impression that I think satan goes around raising the dead like Jesus or the apostles did, because that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

    On a side note, one of our beloved dogs died the other day. She was 12 and 1/2 years old. Since I have other things on my mind, I'm likely not being very clear as to what I am meaning in these latest posts.
    I offer my sincere condolences. 12.5 years is a long, long time, and our pets can be so much a part of us and our families. When an animal is truly your friend, there is nothing quite like it. God bless you and yours.
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

  8. #293

    Re: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

    Taking this question of yours within its obvious genre of romantic poetry, especially in light of your failure to take lightly my jest about being offended that you should accuse me of speaking when I was really merely typing, and taking into account who the typist of that question is (as no one "speaks" though the written word, unless you mean that "symbolically"), and realizing that you aren't much interested in what can be literally understood, and your obvious love of good syntax and grammar, not to mention punctillious punctuation and definitions for technical terms like 'smart guy', 'complex', 'symbolic' and 'obscure,' ... I'd have to say your question mark is disingenous, as is your concern for staying on topic.

    Surely, this mad persona, rabid to avoid talking about the details of the passage I cited in Revelation, is more content to pointificate on how the height of his own brow, evidenced by your grasp of this pet rabbit you have munching on the ancient papayri, which you've named Hermen, and encouraged to multiply like guppies, is breeding bulleted principles to prove you are more erudite, is meant to frighten me. I now feel I must watch my back, because there are some really dangerous emoticons in your arsenal I know nothing about. I'm thinking, 'What will he click on next!?!’
    I do declare, Eyelog, you, sir, are a man after my own heart! You’ve left me utterly speechless. And grinning from ear to ear. And excited too! That was such a massive pile of manure that I was sure I would find a pony in there somewhere. Haven’t found him yet, but hope springs eternal.

    OK. On a more serious note, I give up. I still think the burden is on you to support your literal interpretation of Rev. 13:3, 12 (the mortal death wound that was healed) particularly given the Lord’s own affirmation in Rev. 1:1 that the revelation given to John and recorded in this book was given in signs and symbols. But you are determined to interpret it literally and insist that I explain the symbolism, if indeed it is symbolism as I believe it to be. Since it doesn’t look like we’re going to move this discussion forward unless this issue is resolved or at least addressed by me, I will explain what I think the passage is talking about. Just remember, you asked for it, so I don’t want to hear any complaints about the length.

    First, a few observations that I think are critical to a correctly interpreting this book. The first of these observations is the historical context. The book was written in the latter half of the first century, perhaps as early as the reign of Vespasian as emperor (69-79AD), though it may have been as late as the reign of Domitian (81-96AD). Nero, who had been emperor immediately prior to Vespasian and who reigned 54-68AD, was the fifth emperor of the Roman Empire (Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero), and the first to emperor to persecute the church, though his persecutions were largely limited to the city of Rome and its immediate environs. After Nero, there were three minor emperors (Galba, Otho, and Vitellius) over a period of less than two years. Because their reigns were so short, these are often not counted among the emperors. Excluding these minor emperors, the next to reign after Nero was Vespasian, then his son Titus (responsible for the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD) who reigned only about 2 years. Each of these emperors after Nero abandoned Nero’s persecution of the Christians. However, after the death of Titus, his brother Domitian (who is believed to have been responsible for the poisoning of Titus) became emperor. At first, Domitian was ambivalent toward the Christians in the manner of Vespasian and Titus before him. However, later in his reign Domitian not only revived the persecutions that Nero had instigated, but he extended them throughout the empire and increased their severity. In a sense, Domitian was the reincarnation of Nero’s wickedness and soon his cruelty and wickedness knew no bounds. Now hold that thought for a moment and we’ll come back to it shortly to show why it is significant, especially to Rev. 13.

    The next thing I think is critical to a proper interpretation of this book is an understanding of the timeframe in which the symbolic visions were to take place. Fortunately, the book itself gives us some clues. Twice in the very first chapter of the book and twice in the very last chapter of the book the Lord makes it clear that the things described in symbolic language in the book would begin to happen very soon.
    The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John. (Rev. 1:1)

    Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near. (Rev. 1:3)

    And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place. And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book." (Rev. 22:6-7)

    And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. (Rev. 22:10)
    According to the record, the things the Lord revealed to John (and to those Christians who were undergoing intense persecution) were “things that must soon take place.” The events described through signs and symbols in the visions of John would begin to happen at once! Furthermore, in the original Greek, the word “must” is an impersonal verb that indicates that a moral necessity is involved; the nature of the case is such that the things revealed here must come to pass shortly for only in this way could those early Christians be assured of the immediate help they needed. It is worth noting that Jesus used this same word in Matthew 16:21 when he told his disciples that “He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.” Because of the lost state of men, it was absolutely necessary for Him to go to Jerusalem to die on the cross. Only then could His purpose for coming be accomplished.

    Similarly, the word “soon” means that the things in the book would come to pass very soon, or quickly. It is the same word that Paul used in 2 Timothy 4:9 when he told Timothy, “Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me.” Paul’s life was about to end. He was alone except for Luke. All others had left him. So, he was anxious to see Timothy once more before he died.

    Finally, we must remember to whom this letter was written and the purpose of its writing. The book was sent to the seven churches of Asia, and its purpose was to give them comfort, consolation, and hope to endure the persecutions which they were suffering. Though the church had had a rather auspicious beginning (Acts 2:47) and grew quite rapidly for a time, Satan and his forces had now had time to regroup and he was doing all that he could to bring a swift end to the rapid growth of the church. He had found a willing accomplice first in Nero and then later in Domitian who was in a sense the embodiment of all the wickedness of Nero, reincarnating, as it were, Nero's rather limited persecution of Christians and then extending it throughout the whole of the Roman empire. In the meantime, many Christians were beginning to have some doubts about the commitment they had made. After all, most of them had never personally seen or heard Jesus and now Rome seemed invincible. From their limited perspective and with the faith of many of them beginning to waver, it appeared that the church was soon to be totally destroyed. "Perhaps we are wrong. Perhaps Jesus is not in heaven. Perhaps God has forgotten about us. Else, why is He not doing anything to stop this persecution?" It is against this background that the Lord gives this revelation to John- to let His people know that they are part of a larger conflict between the forces of God and the forces of Satan, that Christ is still on His throne, that they should continue to persevere, and to encourage and comfort them in the knowledge that He was and they will be eternally victorious over all world conditions.

    OK, that’s a lot of background but it was necessary in order to see the context of the book generally and chapter 13 in particular. Chapter 12 is a picture, from Heaven’s perspective, of Satan’s (the dragon) attempts to stop God’s grand plan of redemption in its tracks by killing Christ. Being unsuccessful in his efforts, the dragon (Satan) turns his attention to God’s people (i.e., the church). If he can destroy the church, he can still thwart God’s plan. Which brings us to chapter 13.

    In chapter 13, the dragon (Satan) finds some allies to help him in this battle against God’s people. The first beast is Rome, embodied in the Roman emperor. The seven heads of the beast represent the first seven emperors (Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian). The head (or the emperor) portrayed in verse 3 is Nero. He had begun a persecution of God’s people, but it was rather limited and short-lived. When Nero died the persecutions ended (at least insofar as Rome’s directing them) and it appeared to have been a death blow to the persecuting force of Rome against God’s people. For the next fourteen years or so the church enjoyed relative peace from Roman persecution. But then Domitian came to the throne and things changed for the worse. Much, much worse. In a figurative sense Domitian was the reincarnation of Nero’s cruelty, wickedness, and persecution against the church. This is perfectly symbolized in Rev. 13:3 and Rev. 13:12 as one of the heads of the beast (Nero) is mortally wounded, but the persecutions that had been initiated by that beast were begun again, expanded and extended in the other head, Domitian.

    I think that’s enough. You may or may not agree with this interpretation but I hope I have accomplished these things:
    • To offer an interpretation that is consistent with what Revelation says about itself, that the visions contained therein would begin to happen within a very short time.
    • To offer an interpretation that is consistent with what Revelation says about itself, that the visions contained therein are revealed through signs and symbols. A symbol cannot represent itself.
    • To show show how "the mortal wound [that] was healed" can be interpreted symbolically, consistent with the symbolism of the book.
    • To offer an interpretation that is consistent with the historical context at the time the Revelation was given to John.
    • To offer an interpretation that would be both meaningful and comforting to those to whom John was writing, to those who were in the very midst of severe persecution.


    I warned you that chasing this rabbit would get us off topic, but you insisted that I chase it anyway. It’s all your fault.

  9. #294

    Re: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

    divaD,

    I echo the sentiments of Eyelog. Our dog is an outside dog and is about 15 years old now. She's quite deaf, and even though she's slowed down a bit and does a lot of sleeping, she's as loyal as ever. I think she thinks I'm the greatest person who ever lived. There could be a lot more of that type of thinking around here, by the way (cough, cough). I expect her to go any time, but other than her hearing she's in good health and a great friend, and I'll miss her when she's gone.

  10. #295
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    Re: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by Harrell View Post
    I do declare, Eyelog, you, sir, are a man after my own heart! You’ve left me utterly speechless. And grinning from ear to ear. And excited too! That was such a massive pile of manure that I was sure I would find a pony in there somewhere. Haven’t found him yet, but hope springs eternal.

    OK. On a more serious note, I give up. I still think the burden is on you to support your literal interpretation of Rev. 13:3, 12 (the mortal death wound that was healed) particularly given the Lord’s own affirmation in Rev. 1:1 that the revelation given to John and recorded in this book was given in signs and symbols. But you are determined to interpret it literally and insist that I explain the symbolism, if indeed it is symbolism as I believe it to be. Since it doesn’t look like we’re going to move this discussion forward unless this issue is resolved or at least addressed by me, I will explain what I think the passage is talking about. Just remember, you asked for it, so I don’t want to hear any complaints about the length.

    First, a few observations that I think are critical to a correctly interpreting this book. The first of these observations is the historical context. The book was written in the latter half of the first century, perhaps as early as the reign of Vespasian as emperor (69-79AD), though it may have been as late as the reign of Domitian (81-96AD). Nero, who had been emperor immediately prior to Vespasian and who reigned 54-68AD, was the fifth emperor of the Roman Empire (Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero), and the first to emperor to persecute the church, though his persecutions were largely limited to the city of Rome and its immediate environs. After Nero, there were three minor emperors (Galba, Otho, and Vitellius) over a period of less than two years. Because their reigns were so short, these are often not counted among the emperors. Excluding these minor emperors, the next to reign after Nero was Vespasian, then his son Titus (responsible for the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD) who reigned only about 2 years. Each of these emperors after Nero abandoned Nero’s persecution of the Christians. However, after the death of Titus, his brother Domitian (who is believed to have been responsible for the poisoning of Titus) became emperor. At first, Domitian was ambivalent toward the Christians in the manner of Vespasian and Titus before him. However, later in his reign Domitian not only revived the persecutions that Nero had instigated, but he extended them throughout the empire and increased their severity. In a sense, Domitian was the reincarnation of Nero’s wickedness and soon his cruelty and wickedness knew no bounds. Now hold that thought for a moment and we’ll come back to it shortly to show why it is significant, especially to Rev. 13.

    The next thing I think is critical to a proper interpretation of this book is an understanding of the timeframe in which the symbolic visions were to take place. Fortunately, the book itself gives us some clues. Twice in the very first chapter of the book and twice in the very last chapter of the book the Lord makes it clear that the things described in symbolic language in the book would begin to happen very soon.

    According to the record, the things the Lord revealed to John (and to those Christians who were undergoing intense persecution) were “things that must soon take place.” The events described through signs and symbols in the visions of John would begin to happen at once! Furthermore, in the original Greek, the word “must” is an impersonal verb that indicates that a moral necessity is involved; the nature of the case is such that the things revealed here must come to pass shortly for only in this way could those early Christians be assured of the immediate help they needed. It is worth noting that Jesus used this same word in Matthew 16:21 when he told his disciples that “He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.” Because of the lost state of men, it was absolutely necessary for Him to go to Jerusalem to die on the cross. Only then could His purpose for coming be accomplished.

    Similarly, the word “soon” means that the things in the book would come to pass very soon, or quickly. It is the same word that Paul used in 2 Timothy 4:9 when he told Timothy, “Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me.” Paul’s life was about to end. He was alone except for Luke. All others had left him. So, he was anxious to see Timothy once more before he died.

    Finally, we must remember to whom this letter was written and the purpose of its writing. The book was sent to the seven churches of Asia, and its purpose was to give them comfort, consolation, and hope to endure the persecutions which they were suffering. Though the church had had a rather auspicious beginning (Acts 2:47) and grew quite rapidly for a time, Satan and his forces had now had time to regroup and he was doing all that he could to bring a swift end to the rapid growth of the church. He had found a willing accomplice first in Nero and then later in Domitian who was in a sense the embodiment of all the wickedness of Nero, reincarnating, as it were, Nero's rather limited persecution of Christians and then extending it throughout the whole of the Roman empire. In the meantime, many Christians were beginning to have some doubts about the commitment they had made. After all, most of them had never personally seen or heard Jesus and now Rome seemed invincible. From their limited perspective and with the faith of many of them beginning to waver, it appeared that the church was soon to be totally destroyed. "Perhaps we are wrong. Perhaps Jesus is not in heaven. Perhaps God has forgotten about us. Else, why is He not doing anything to stop this persecution?" It is against this background that the Lord gives this revelation to John- to let His people know that they are part of a larger conflict between the forces of God and the forces of Satan, that Christ is still on His throne, that they should continue to persevere, and to encourage and comfort them in the knowledge that He was and they will be eternally victorious over all world conditions.

    OK, that’s a lot of background but it was necessary in order to see the context of the book generally and chapter 13 in particular. Chapter 12 is a picture, from Heaven’s perspective, of Satan’s (the dragon) attempts to stop God’s grand plan of redemption in its tracks by killing Christ. Being unsuccessful in his efforts, the dragon (Satan) turns his attention to God’s people (i.e., the church). If he can destroy the church, he can still thwart God’s plan. Which brings us to chapter 13.

    In chapter 13, the dragon (Satan) finds some allies to help him in this battle against God’s people. The first beast is Rome, embodied in the Roman emperor. The seven heads of the beast represent the first seven emperors (Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian). The head (or the emperor) portrayed in verse 3 is Nero. He had begun a persecution of God’s people, but it was rather limited and short-lived. When Nero died the persecutions ended (at least insofar as Rome’s directing them) and it appeared to have been a death blow to the persecuting force of Rome against God’s people. For the next fourteen years or so the church enjoyed relative peace from Roman persecution. But then Domitian came to the throne and things changed for the worse. Much, much worse. In a figurative sense Domitian was the reincarnation of Nero’s cruelty, wickedness, and persecution against the church. This is perfectly symbolized in Rev. 13:3 and Rev. 13:12 as one of the heads of the beast (Nero) is mortally wounded, but the persecutions that had been initiated by that beast were begun again, expanded and extended in the other head, Domitian.

    I think that’s enough. You may or may not agree with this interpretation but I hope I have accomplished these things:
    • To offer an interpretation that is consistent with what Revelation says about itself, that the visions contained therein would begin to happen within a very short time.
    • To offer an interpretation that is consistent with what Revelation says about itself, that the visions contained therein are revealed through signs and symbols. A symbol cannot represent itself.
    • To show show how "the mortal wound [that] was healed" can be interpreted symbolically, consistent with the symbolism of the book.
    • To offer an interpretation that is consistent with the historical context at the time the Revelation was given to John.
    • To offer an interpretation that would be both meaningful and comforting to those to whom John was writing, to those who were in the very midst of severe persecution.


    I warned you that chasing this rabbit would get us off topic, but you insisted that I chase it anyway. It’s all your fault.
    Congrat's, Harrel. I see your view as internally consistent and even plausible.

    I also appreciate your brief consult of the greater counsel fo God by citing other NT texts.

    Which parts of revelation have not occured yet, if any?

    So far as my view, you may have picked up by now that I too view the first beastas a government, and I see the mortal wound to be to one of its heads, likely a branch and/or succusseor and/or even the particular person who heads that branch or office.

    So, you see, we agreein a literal interpreation of the mortal wound as well, as you see the death of Nero as an actual mortal event. You see his successor as the means by which the mortal wound to the branch or office of the government/beast to be "healed" via a successor. That is not without possibility at all.

    However, I am not in agreement over the ID of the government being Rome of the day, nor its emporers, though they could be types for the heads which will come later. I happen to see the antitypes as yet to come.

    So far as soon and very soon, I don't think that most of Revelation has occurred in its antitypes yet.

    As a matter of fact, I am interested in your view, however, of what you think is yet to come in Revelation.

    Thanks for the specific statement of your theory.
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

  11. #296

    Re: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

    Eyelog,

    Which parts of revelation have not occurred yet, if any? (Eyelog, #295)
    As I indicated in my previous post, I believe the book of Revelation was written primarily to meet the immediate needs of the persecuted Christians of the late 1st century. They needed the assurance that Christ was on the throne, that He was in control, that He had not forgotten about them, that they would be avenged. They needed to know that the persecuting Roman empire was not all-powerful. They needed to know that maintaining their faith in God during the most severe trials would be rewarded. They needed immediate comfort and consolation. It is for all of these reasons that the Lord told John that the things that He was about to reveal through symbols “must shortly come to pass.” That is, the Lord was acknowledging the plight of His people and the moral imperative of showing them that something was beginning to be done about their situation and would be accomplished in a short time. There are, to be sure, secondary applications that we can make of the principles in this book to our own trials and persecutions. That is, we can go to this book and see how God is always in control (though we may sometimes doubt it), that He always is watching out for His people, that He will always avenge them, that He will always and ultimately reward them. Those are all timeless principles that apply in every situation.

    The book of Revelation presents a picture in symbols of Satan’s struggle against God as he tried to prevent God from carrying out the plan the plan of redemption. In it we see Satan as he tries to kill the Christ before he has a chance to begin his work, then failing that he tries to destroy the church. Ultimately, we see Christ victorious and the saints dwelling with him in heaven.

    In my opinion, nearly the entire book has already been fulfilled because nearly all of it is dealing with the struggle of Satan to destroy the church before it can get a firm toe-hold. The climax of this part of the book (i.e., the fulfilled portion) is Rev. 20:10 where we are told that the devil is cast into the lake of fire, where the beast (the emperor) and the false prophet (the Concilia that was responsible for enforcing emperor worship) were, to be tormented forever.

    Beginning in Rev. 20:11 I believe we are given a vision of the ultimate reward of God’s people who persevere through trials, persecutions, and tribulations. It is a picture of our future in heaven with God.

    That's the nutshell version. Emphasis on "nut."

  12. #297
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    Re: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

    Based on your interpretation, what historic event represents the 1000 years of the devil not deceiving the nations?
    Slug1--out

    ~Do not quench the Spirit ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:19~

    ~
    "So what hardship are you willing to endure, to see My will accomplished through you?"~

    ~Your relationship isn't knowing "ABOUT" GOD! Relationship is to "KNOW" GOD,
    so that in the end and you stand before Him for the first time in heaven… HE KNOWS YOU~


    ~Do we, as Christians witness Jesus to the lost because we love Jesus? Or do we witness Jesus to the lost because we love them as Jesus loves them?~

    ~A prompting from God means that you are to DO. Thinking, causes you to... NOT DO!~

    ~Being on the tall mountain is where "you" go, to meet with God. Being in the deep valley is where "God" goes, to meet with you!~


  13. #298
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    Re: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by Harrell View Post
    Eyelog,


    As I indicated in my previous post, I believe the book of Revelation was written primarily to meet the immediate needs of the persecuted Christians of the late 1st century. They needed the assurance that Christ was on the throne, that He was in control, that He had not forgotten about them, that they would be avenged. They needed to know that the persecuting Roman empire was not all-powerful. They needed to know that maintaining their faith in God during the most severe trials would be rewarded. They needed immediate comfort and consolation. It is for all of these reasons that the Lord told John that the things that He was about to reveal through symbols “must shortly come to pass.” That is, the Lord was acknowledging the plight of His people and the moral imperative of showing them that something was beginning to be done about their situation and would be accomplished in a short time. There are, to be sure, secondary applications that we can make of the principles in this book to our own trials and persecutions. That is, we can go to this book and see how God is always in control (though we may sometimes doubt it), that He always is watching out for His people, that He will always avenge them, that He will always and ultimately reward them. Those are all timeless principles that apply in every situation.

    The book of Revelation presents a picture in symbols of Satan’s struggle against God as he tried to prevent God from carrying out the plan the plan of redemption. In it we see Satan as he tries to kill the Christ before he has a chance to begin his work, then failing that he tries to destroy the church. Ultimately, we see Christ victorious and the saints dwelling with him in heaven.

    In my opinion, nearly the entire book has already been fulfilled because nearly all of it is dealing with the struggle of Satan to destroy the church before it can get a firm toe-hold. The climax of this part of the book (i.e., the fulfilled portion) is Rev. 20:10 where we are told that the devil is cast into the lake of fire, where the beast (the emperor) and the false prophet (the Concilia that was responsible for enforcing emperor worship) were, to be tormented forever.

    Beginning in Rev. 20:11 I believe we are given a vision of the ultimate reward of God’s people who persevere through trials, persecutions, and tribulations. It is a picture of our future in heaven with God.

    That's the nutshell version. Emphasis on "nut."
    I guess I can see why you would more easily conclude that the gifts have ceased, if you conclude that the Second Coming of Christ has already occurred. Of course, in that case, you should conclude that the reign of Chirst is taking place even now. In fact, this must be eternity future already ....

    I can see why you think that is a bit nutty.
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

  14. #299

    Re: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

    Based on your interpretation, what historic event represents the 1000 years of the devil not deceiving the nations? (Slug1, #297)
    I can give you a short answer or a longer answer. The short answer would probably raise more questions in your mind than it would answer so I’ll give you the longer answer. It may raise as many questions as the short answer, but it will give more context so you can (hopefully) have a better understanding of what I’m saying. As you read this you will see the “cessationist” coming out in me, and I know that we disagree on that, but bear with me and hopefully you’ll see and understand the relevance. As I’ve said before, I prefer clarity over agreement. I’m not expecting you to necessarily agree with everything (maybe even anything) I say, but I do hope to explain myself in such a clear way that you can at least understand where I’m coming from and the reasoning behind what I believe.

    What follows is a kind of chronological summary of what I believe to be relevant events that factor into a proper understanding of Rev. 20:1-10.
    30 AD:
    1. Church established
    2. Apostles receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. They are empowered to work miracles. They also have the power to pass these miraculous gifts to others through the laying on of hands (Acts 6:6; 8:17; Rom. 1:11; 2 Tim. 1:6).
    3. The secondary (laying on of hands) measure was received by some, but not all Christians (see #2 above). As was true with the apostles, these Christians had power to perform signs and wonders for the purpose of confirming the Word of God which was being revealed and written down.
    4. All baptized believers received the indwelling measure of the Holy Spirit. No spiritual gifts were involved here.


    55-64 AD
    1. Paul writes his first letter to the Corinthian church. He tells them that the era of spiritual gifts would end "when that which is perfect is come" (1 Cor. 13:10).
    2. James later refers to the written Word of God as "the perfect law of liberty." (James 1:25)
    3. When Paul wrote to the Ephesians, Holy Spirit baptism was no longer being administered. Since Pentecost, only one other instance of Holy Spirit baptism is recorded in the Scripture, and that is the case of Cornelius (Acts 10, 11). But by the time he wrote to the Ephesians, Paul said that there was then only "one baptism." (Eph. 4:5)


    81 AD
    1. Beginning of the reign of Roman emperor, Domitian.


    96 – 100AD
    1. John receives the Revelation on Patmos. Having received this final revelation from God, Christians were now reassured that the things which they had received by way of other epistles (some more than 40 years earlier) were indeed worth obeying. Now, some 60 or more years after the church was first established they realize that Christianity is not a dying religion, though it is a religion worth dying for. They now realize that God lives and reigns and watches over and fights for His children. Now they realize that they need not see earthly utopia to be assured of eternal victory. Theirs was a spiritual religion. They had always believed it so. Now, with greater understanding and appreciation than ever before they see things from God's perspective. They now begin to understand Paul's words in Phil. 2:5-12, In persecution and even in death they "live and reign" with Christ!
    2. Death of Domitian. If nothing else, this had to be a moral victory for these persecuted Christians. Though Domitian had been behind their persecutions and appeared invincible, the Lord had only a short time earlier told them that no man or nation could have any power without God's permission. With the death of this persecutor, they see again that it is God who controls events.
    3. Death of John, the last of the Apostles. With his death, there is now no one alive who has the power to pass spiritual gifts to others by the laying on of hands. Some spiritual gifts remained, but only with those few Christians who had already received the secondary measure of the Spirit. As these Christians died, the era of spiritual gifts drew to a close for there was no longer any way for them to be perpetuated.
    4. Satan is bound. There is a sense in which Satan was "bound" by the death of Domitian. He had found in Domitian a powerful ally who was more than willing to oppose Christianity. With the emperor's death, Satan is restricted, as least for a time in regards to emperor worship. While Domitian's death was not a mortal blow to Satan, it was a moral defeat just as it was a moral victory for those first century Christians.
    5. In another sense, Satan was "bound" by the death of John and the corresponding end of the baptismal measure of the Holy Spirit. Up until this time, Satan was allowed to exercise power which would seem extraordinary to us today. It was necessary that Satan have such power so that men might have free and equal opportunity to accept or reject the gospel which was being confirmed with extraordinary power of signs and wonders.
    6. Beginning of the thousand years. Having received the last of God's revelation to mankind, these Christians can now see earthly events from God's perspective. Now that they enjoy this new relationship and fellowship with God, their earthly persecutions are seen as nothing more than "momentary light affliction" (2Cor. 4:17-18). The number "1000" is, like all the other numbers of Revelation, a symbolic number. It is the product of the "complete" or "full" number ten raised to the third power, that is "10 x 10 x 10." The number three, of course, was a number which to Jews symbolized that which is holy. The number "1000" then is understood to be a symbol of that full or complete period of time appointed by God during which these first century martyrs would be raised (resurrected) from beneath the altar (Re. 6:9) to live and reign with Christ in heaven. A single day with the Lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years of earthly persecution is as a single day when we have overcome (Psalms 90:4; 2 Peter 3:8).


    120 – 160AD
    1. Secondary measure of the Holy Spirit ends. The last of God's divine revelation has been recorded and is now in general acceptance and usage by Christians. (The Muratorian Fragment, dating to the last half of the 2nd century lists all the books of our New Testament except Hebrews, James, 1 & 2 Peter, and 1 John. The list would undoubtedly be more complete if we had more than a fragment. About the year 200 AD, Origen, the noted Greek writer, teacher, and "church father" named all the New Testament books). Spiritual gifts, which merely served the purpose of confirming the spoken word, are no longer needed because the spoken word has now been recorded. Today, we "try the spirits" by comparing their teaching to the written Word of God, the New Testament.
    2. As the period of miracles draws to a close, Satan is released for one last furious attempt to destroy Christianity. Though he is apparently successful in gathering allies in his cause, he never gets a chance to fight for fire came down from heaven and destroyed them. In Rev. 19, Christ is seen going into battle, but in Rev. 20, He does not even bother to leave heaven. In the former battle the Christians are shown that Jesus will come fight for them if necessary. In the latter "battle," they come to realize that Jesus need not even leave heaven to protect them. The full power of Deity is witnessed on our behalf. Although persecutions did not cease at the death of Domitian, they would never again have the same intensity. Now God’s people are armed with the promises of God. They had always had those promises, of course, but now they are able to point to actual past events as evidence of God’s protection and love, and now they are assured that God is faithful and can rest in this confidence no matter what trials come their way. Though the physical hurt might be the same, the spirit could not be broken for now they know what they once did not.
    3. Satan is cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet. Satan is now in Hades awaiting judgment just as Christ is in heaven reigning. Of course, Satan works on men even today, though he himself is in Hades; however, he no longer exercises the extraordinary power that he did in the first century. He is only able to work in the same way as the Word of God works today.

  15. #300
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    Re: A very serious major doctrinal change after the apostles

    After reading all you wrote and to elevate questions, let me ask this in a way that may be easier... what portions of The Revelation are "not" symbolic?

    (You may want to stick to a short answer )
    Slug1--out

    ~Do not quench the Spirit ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:19~

    ~
    "So what hardship are you willing to endure, to see My will accomplished through you?"~

    ~Your relationship isn't knowing "ABOUT" GOD! Relationship is to "KNOW" GOD,
    so that in the end and you stand before Him for the first time in heaven… HE KNOWS YOU~


    ~Do we, as Christians witness Jesus to the lost because we love Jesus? Or do we witness Jesus to the lost because we love them as Jesus loves them?~

    ~A prompting from God means that you are to DO. Thinking, causes you to... NOT DO!~

    ~Being on the tall mountain is where "you" go, to meet with God. Being in the deep valley is where "God" goes, to meet with you!~


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