To those who believe in free will............

[Mark F]

Isaiah 7

14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. 15 He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. 16 For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.

Hi Eyelog,

This passage is speaking of Jesus and I would not think that it should be used in a general sense, wouldn't you agree?

But with that in mind...

This is not saying that children are sinless, this is pointing out that there is a point that they are to be capable of making the choice to choose good over evil. I would say, and not in the case of Immanuel, that prior to this point the child may not posses the ability to choose the good INSTEAD of evil so the do not REFUSE it, but that is a learned process. By the above passage it implies that until they know enough they choose evil, not good, because why would it be pointed out then?

[Dani H]

I don't know if I'd make it about sinlessness. We're all definitely born into a fallen world, and because nobody grows up in a vacuum, from babyhood on we all end up being conditioned in some way, shape or form. Maybe we don't deliberately train our kids to be bad; however, kids aren't stupid, are very observant, get their clues from the energy of the people around them, learn very quickly because the growth curve of small children is just so incredibly steep, and a self-absorbed parent can very, very quickly rub off on their kid.

Which is why by the time they're 2 and say "mine" ... we think "well the kid must have been born with that selfish attitude"; however, we forget that 2 years at that age is actually a HUGE amount of time with massive amounts of learning and growth, relatively speaking.

So it ends up being kind of a chicken/egg deal, I think, that nobody can 100% prove and people go round and round between "children are born sinners" and "children are born innocent and learn sin from others."

Regardless, I think that we can all agree on the fact that kids are highly impressionable and easily conditioned while they're young yet, which is why parenthood is rather a big deal, as is children's ministry in the churches (that sadly ends up being a "stepping stone" so often for the "real" ministry which is perceived to belong to the adults but I actually disagree there).

So, from a purely practical standpoint (because theoretical debates are for the birds and resolve nothing), I stick with God's charge of "teach your children My precepts" and seek to model godly behavior and an environment of peace and love and God's presence even with the 7-month-old grandbaby and spend much time in prayer for my children and modeling right and wrong to them, along with teaching them.

Ok a little long-winded, hope you understand where I'm coming from.

[Eyelog]

Hi Eyelog,

This passage is speaking of Jesus and I would not think that it should be used in a general sense, wouldn't you agree?

But with that in mind...

This is not saying that children are sinless, this is pointing out that there is a point that they are to be capable of making the choice to choose good over evil. I would say, and not in the case of Immanuel, that prior to this point the child may not posses the ability to choose the good INSTEAD of evil so the do not REFUSE it, but that is a learned process. By the above passage it implies that until they know enough they choose evil, not good, because why would it be pointed out then?

Agreed. You explained it.

In Psalm 51:5, David wrote, “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”
Psalm 58:3-4
(Psa 58:3-4 KJV) The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. {4} Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

[Watchman]

We are REborn into freeDOM.

[Eyelog]

We are REborn into freeDOM.

Amen. That's the ticket. And what are we doing with that freedom?

[glad4mercy]

Yes if I had my choice I would honor God in everything I do. I really would. Fact is I don't. I want to though.

The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. You can not obey God in the strength of the flesh. It can only be accompished by walking in the Spirit. The Spirit is the one who can help you honor God in everthing you do.

Here is a set of steps I think are helpful. I assume you have been born again, so these steps are for a born again person who wants to honor God in everything but hasnt yet been sucessful.

a. Stop feeding the flesh/ sinful tendencies. starve it/them.
b. Feed the Spiritual man. Read the Bible, pray, fellowship, serve
c. When you sin, confess it and ask God to forgive and cleanse with the intention of not doing it again, by His Grace.
d. Realize that the only one keeping us from holiness is ourselves. God has already supplied everything to His children.
e. Don' t listen to the devil when he tells you that you can't do it or it's too late to start.
F. Stay close to God.

[Eyelog]

The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. You can not obey God in the strength of the flesh. It can only be accompished by walking in the Spirit. The Spirit is the one who can help you honor God in everthing you do.

Here is a set of steps I think are helpful. I assume you have been born again, so these steps are for a born again person who wants to honor God in everything but hasnt yet been sucessful.

a. Stop feeding the flesh/ sinful tendencies. starve it/them.
b. Feed the Spiritual man. Read the Bible, pray, fellowship, serve
c. When you sin, confess it and ask God to forgive and cleanse with the intention of not doing it again, by His Grace.
d. Realize that the only one keeping us from holiness is ourselves. God has already supplied everything to His children.
e. Don' t listen to the devil when he tells you that you can't do it or it's too late to start.
F. Stay close to God.

Hi, Glad. Good list. Would you explain what it means to "stay close to God"?

[glad4mercy]

Hi, Glad. Good list. Would you explain what it means to "stay close to God"?

We need to develop an intimate relationship with God. Just as I stay close to my wife by spending time with her, opening my heart to her, listening to her, etc. we need to do the same things with God. Points B and C in my list are two ways of staying close to God.

We also stay close to God by obeying Him. When we disobey God it produces a breach of fellowship with Him. We are putting up a wall between ourselves and God, or perhaps we are distancing ourselves from Him. Confession as described in 1 John 1:9 removes the sin that hinders our fellowship with God. Yet we don't want to use that verse as a license to sin, for when we hear the Word, read the Word, etc then go out and disobey it, what we are actually doing is hardening our own hearts and we may actually make ourselves immune to the necessary conviction that the Word produces.

One of the greatest problems with some who profess Christ is that people read the Bible and pray every day, go to church every time the door is open, serve in ministry, yet live in daily rebellion/disobedience to God. I think when one does this, it produces a reverse reaction. The hearing of the Word and not doing it actually produces a terrible hardness rather than a softening. So we must stay close to God by abiding in His Word, which means not only hearing but doing, not only doing but continuing in, not only abounding, but increasing in His Grace.

So let all who hear the Word take heed to obey it.

[Illuin]

The doctrine of free will comes solely from the reasonings of man. Free will teaches that man can act independently of God. Free will teaches that man has the freedom to choose or reject God, never mind the verse that says: "There is none that understands, there is NONE THAT SEEKS after God." (Romans 3:10,11). What about the verse that says God is operating all things in accord with the counsel of His will? (Ephesians 1:11)? The Scripture rejects the idea of free will. Free will is nothing but the traditions of men that have no basis in Scripture, and can easily be refuted in more places than I can count. People love to quote man's reasoning and say that God gave us free will to choose. If one were to believe that, all of these Scriptures would have to be tossed out:

"No one is able to come to Me UNLESS the Father Who sent Me DRAWS HIM unto Me." (John 6:44)

"For by grace are you saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the Gift of God." (Ephesians 2:8-9).

"It is NOT of him that WILLS or of him that runs, but of GOD that shows mercy." (Romans 9:16)

"You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU." (John 15:16).

"There is none that understands, there is NONE THAT SEEKS after God." (Romans 3:10,11)

"For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not." (1 Corinthians 4:7)

"According as HE HAS CHOSEN US in Christ before the foundation of the world." (Ephesians 1:4)

"NO MAN can say Jesus is Lord, BUT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT." (1 Corinthians 12:3)

God is even responsible for unbelief.............

"Even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day." (Romans 11:8)

"For God has shut up all in unbelief so that He may show mercy to all." (Romans 11:32)

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." (Matthew 13:11)

"Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening." (Romans 9:18)

Here are a few more Scripture passages that would need some serious explaining (or ignoring) if one subscribes to the free will tradition:

"The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." (Proverbs 16:9).

"The lot is cast in the lap, but every decision is from the Lord" (Proverbs 16:33).

"Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, how then can man understand his way?" (Proverbs 20:24).

"We cannot arrange our case because of darkness" (Job 37:19).

"The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Proverbs 16:4)

"Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it?" (Isaiah 10:15).

"To whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening" (Romans 9:18).

"Who has withstood His intention?" (Romans 9:19).

"For the Lord of Hosts has planned it, who can frustrate it?" (Isaiah 14:27).

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2:10)

"For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"Lord, You will ordain peace for us, for You have also done in us and for us all our works." (Isaiah 26:12)

"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." (Romans 9:16-18)

"But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it. Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?" (Romans 9:20-21)

I could go on and on, but I think the point has been made. The question is; "Is God sovereign, or isn't He?" Is God operating ALL THINGS in accord with the counsel of HIS WILL (Ephesians 1:11), or OUR WILLS?

[Boo]

The doctrine of free will comes solely from the reasonings of man. Free will teaches that man can act independently of God. Free will teaches that man has the freedom to choose or reject God, never mind the verse that says: "There is none that understands, there is NONE THAT SEEKS after God." (Romans 3:10,11). What about the verse that says God is operating all things in accord with the counsel of His will? (Ephesians 1:11)? The Scripture rejects the idea of free will. Free will is nothing but the traditions of men that have no basis in Scripture, and can easily be refuted in more places than I can count. People love to quote man's reasoning and say that God gave us free will to choose. If one were to believe that, all of these Scriptures would have to be tossed out:

"No one is able to come to Me UNLESS the Father Who sent Me DRAWS HIM unto Me." (John 6:44)

"For by grace are you saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the Gift of God." (Ephesians 2:8-9).

"It is NOT of him that WILLS or of him that runs, but of GOD that shows mercy." (Romans 9:16)

"You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU." (John 15:16).

"There is none that understands, there is NONE THAT SEEKS after God." (Romans 3:10,11)

"For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not." (1 Corinthians 4:7)

"According as HE HAS CHOSEN US in Christ before the foundation of the world." (Ephesians 1:4)

"NO MAN can say Jesus is Lord, BUT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT." (1 Corinthians 12:3)

God is even responsible for unbelief.............

"Even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day." (Romans 11:8)

"For God has shut up all in unbelief so that He may show mercy to all." (Romans 11:32)

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." (Matthew 13:11)

"Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening." (Romans 9:18)

Here are a few more Scripture passages that would need some serious explaining (or ignoring) if one subscribes to the free will tradition:

"The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." (Proverbs 16:9).

"The lot is cast in the lap, but every decision is from the Lord" (Proverbs 16:33).

"Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, how then can man understand his way?" (Proverbs 20:24).

"We cannot arrange our case because of darkness" (Job 37:19).

"The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Proverbs 16:4)

"Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it?" (Isaiah 10:15).

"To whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening" (Romans 9:18).

"Who has withstood His intention?" (Romans 9:19).

"For the Lord of Hosts has planned it, who can frustrate it?" (Isaiah 14:27).

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2:10)

"For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"Lord, You will ordain peace for us, for You have also done in us and for us all our works." (Isaiah 26:12)

"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." (Romans 9:16-18)

"But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it. Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?" (Romans 9:20-21)

I could go on and on, but I think the point has been made. The question is; "Is God sovereign, or isn't He?" Is God operating ALL THINGS in accord with the counsel of HIS WILL (Ephesians 1:11), or OUR WILLS?

Yes, you could go on for a bit. By rights, though, you need to include the verses that show man's bad choices, man's bad decisions, man's sin. The verses that you are using could be a demonstration that you believe that all of the bad things that man does must also be God's will.

[tango]

Freedom to fail is too often denied to kiddos. Failure is a learning experience, and can be quite valuable. Love allows for failure, yes?

W

I'd go as far as say love encourages trying and failing.

Better to try and fail in a safe environment than grow up thinking you can do absolutely anything, only to fail spectacularly and maybe dangerously because you'd never come across the concept of not acing something first time every time.

[DeRick]

I remember reading something about "free will" and what God does sometimes. Although the topic is something i brought up before, it mentions "free will" in a way i never heard before. If yall can find a scripture to back this statement up, i'd appreciate it. I'll try to be descreet about the main topic as i can but it does tie in with the "free will" thing.
"In many cases circumstances have conspired to produce a single. Caring for a family member, illness, and many other factors can make marriage difficult or impossible. (In this article I am not dealing with the singleness which comes after marriage - bereavement, separation and divorce raise a different set of questions.)
These kinds of "enforced" singleness can be saddening, even embittering. Yet God does, on occasion, use force to get his way. Have you never prayed "your will be done"? Perhaps it is?"
Does that sound right to yall, as far as "free will" is concerned?

[Watchman]

These kinds of "enforced" singleness can be saddening, even embittering. Yet God does, on occasion, use force to get his way. Have you never prayed "your will be done"? Perhaps it is?"
Does that sound right to yall, as far as "free will" is concerned?

If free will means we never do anything we do not desire to do, then we don't have it. If, OTOH, free will means we always have a choice of what we do, then we do, in fact, have it. My view is the latter.

blessings,

Watchman

PS: Cozumel is a beautiful island, and one of my favorite scuba destinations.

[DeRick]

i don't think i understand (what is OTOH) Bsicly as far as free will and God's soveriegnty is concerned, Does God sometimes "use force to get His way"....so to speak?

[DeRick]

I don't believe in free will. Our wills can be bound up.

I do, however, believe in the power of choice. We may not always want to do the right thing, but there's nothing stopping us from choosing it anyway. Except us.

Choose this day who you're going to serve. It's not a novel concept.

I let my children exercise their power of choice. Every choice, however, has consequences. If you choose stupidly ... well ... there you go. So choose wisely.

God lets us choose freely. There are, however, consequences. Again, it's not a novel concept.

What does it mean to have your will "bound up"? i think i know but not sure. A friend of mine once said we have the freedom to choose our actions, but not the outcome or consequences of those actions. the question is WHY you are making that choice, what outcome do you hope to accomplish from your action? But ultimatly GOD chooses the outcome, not you. I guess thats why the author of that article i posted was saying "God sometimes uses force to get His way." Although i'm not sure why he would say it like that.