To those who believe in free will............

[chad]

I Don't know. Maybe Genesis was defining sin in the world as it relates to man, specifically sin entering through Adam and Eve?

Paul writes in Romans 5:12 (NIV) Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

Lucifer had already sinned, and the serpent was already here sinning in deceiving Eve. Why didn't that count for sin and evil in the world?

[Noeb]

I Don't know. Maybe Genesis was defining sin in the world as it relates to man, specifically sin entering through Adam and Eve?

Paul writes in Romans 5:12 (NIV) Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

I agree, but why -as it relates to man? Man was given dominion (over all - those that had sinned) and man had not sinned. It doesn't mean man was righteous, of course. He was just innocent. Having done neither good or evil he could not be otherwise. To maintain dominion man had to continue to be righteous. The book of Hebrews explains this, in Christ. Some believe Adam gave dominion to the serpent, but that's not true. First of all only God gives it. Secondly, the serpent simply has greater spiritual influence and power than 'fallen' man.

[poorinspirit]

and have children? Do you allow your children to practice theirs?

I'm sure we have the "freedom" to be foolish and sow to the works of the flesh in reaping corruption or be prudent in sowing to the fruits of the Spirit.

But even then, the Father chastens even His own children as fathers do their own. Read Hebrews 12th chapter at the link below.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...12&version=KJV

We also have the free will in making that decision to want to follow Jesus, but do we have the power in keeping that decision by the flesh to exercise the free will in following Jesus? No, we do not.

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:....9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

When we came to Jesus Christ, we acknowledged our need of the Saviour BECAUSE we cannot save ourselves. If God's chosen people could not keep the law in following God in doing the best they can, then how can believers can even attempt to follow Jesus when His standard is higher than the works of the law? And yet, little children are free to come to Him, and if we do not receive the kingdom of God as a child does, we shall in no wise enter therein: so what can a child do but trust the Lord in following Him?

The same grace and faith in the Son of God we are saved by is the same grace and faith in the Son of God that we live and follow Him by. Our confidence is in Him and not in any will power or keeping our sincere decision, otherwise, you will be disappointed in yourself as you will find that no matter how much the spirit si willing, the flesh is weak, therefore what is impossible with man, is possible with God. We follow Jesus Christ by faith in the Son of God that He will help us to follow Him as the Good Shepherd He is.

So the freedom of free will may exists, but know that there are consequences or rewards for the choice we make, but the power in the right choice made is not from the will of man, but the free will to believe and trust the Lord that He will enable them to follow Him by understanding His words in the KJV to continue in Him as His disciple, and not a disciple of something else like the world.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So decide this day Whom you will serve, the Lord Jesus Christ or something else in His name which is not the same thing.

Even I am trusting the Lord to help me to serve Him and nothing else in His name. Thanks to Him, I acknowledge my need of my Good Shepherd in helping me to follow Him by His help and by His grace so I got nothing to boast about in regards to my free will. Were we not all slaves to sin and the devil? Yet by faith in Jesus Christ, we have been set free, only because God saw that we wanted to be free and reproved of our evil deeds.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So even our believing in Jesus Christ is a work of God Himself too! So where is the boast and glory of free will?

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[Ceegen]

If we had no free will, what would be the point of repenting?

[Galatians 2:21]

The doctrine of free will comes solely from the reasonings of man. Free will teaches that man can act independently of God. Free will teaches that man has the freedom to choose or reject God, never mind the verse that says: "There is none that understands, there is NONE THAT SEEKS after God." (Romans 3:10,11). What about the verse that says God is operating all things in accord with the counsel of His will? (Ephesians 1:11)? The Scripture rejects the idea of free will. Free will is nothing but the traditions of men that have no basis in Scripture, and can easily be refuted in more places than I can count. People love to quote man's reasoning and say that God gave us free will to choose. If one were to believe that, all of these Scriptures would have to be tossed out:

"No one is able to come to Me UNLESS the Father Who sent Me DRAWS HIM unto Me." (John 6:44)

"For by grace are you saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the Gift of God." (Ephesians 2:8-9).

"It is NOT of him that WILLS or of him that runs, but of GOD that shows mercy." (Romans 9:16)

"You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU." (John 15:16).

"There is none that understands, there is NONE THAT SEEKS after God." (Romans 3:10,11)

"For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not." (1 Corinthians 4:7)

"According as HE HAS CHOSEN US in Christ before the foundation of the world." (Ephesians 1:4)

"NO MAN can say Jesus is Lord, BUT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT." (1 Corinthians 12:3)

God is even responsible for unbelief.............

"Even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day." (Romans 11:8)

"For God has shut up all in unbelief so that He may show mercy to all." (Romans 11:32)

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." (Matthew 13:11)

"Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening." (Romans 9:18)

Here are a few more Scripture passages that would need some serious explaining (or ignoring) if one subscribes to the free will tradition:

"The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." (Proverbs 16:9).

"The lot is cast in the lap, but every decision is from the Lord" (Proverbs 16:33).

"Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, how then can man understand his way?" (Proverbs 20:24).

"We cannot arrange our case because of darkness" (Job 37:19).

"The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Proverbs 16:4)

"Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it?" (Isaiah 10:15).

"To whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening" (Romans 9:18).

"Who has withstood His intention?" (Romans 9:19).

"For the Lord of Hosts has planned it, who can frustrate it?" (Isaiah 14:27).

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2:10)

"For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"Lord, You will ordain peace for us, for You have also done in us and for us all our works." (Isaiah 26:12)

"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." (Romans 9:16-18)

"But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it. Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?" (Romans 9:20-21)

I could go on and on, but I think the point has been made. The question is; "Is God sovereign, or isn't He?" Is God operating ALL THINGS in accord with the counsel of HIS WILL (Ephesians 1:11), or OUR WILLS?

Cherry pickin' verses doesn't support your claim. It's called "proof-texting", ya know?

[poorinspirit]

If we had no free will, what would be the point of repenting?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Is free will related to the act of repenting? If we were slave to sin and thus in bondage to sin and to death, then where is the power of free will in repenting?

If no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him (John 6:44) then how can anyone speak of free will?

John 3:18-21 speaks of how God knows those that are seeking Him from those that are not, but prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the light to have their evil deeds reproved. So then those seeking God and wanting to be free but cannot, it is on God to draw them unto the Son, and thus by the fact that we are believing is a work of God Himself.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

[Ceegen]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Is free will related to the act of repenting? If we were slave to sin and thus in bondage to sin and to death, then where is the power of free will in repenting?

If no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him (John 6:44) then how can anyone speak of free will?

John 3:18-21 speaks of how God knows those that are seeking Him from those that are not, but prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the light to have their evil deeds reproved. So then those seeking God and wanting to be free but cannot, it is on God to draw them unto the Son, and thus by the fact that we are believing is a work of God Himself.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Why does God repeatedly tell us to "turn from our sins" if we didn't have free will? What is the point of God telling us anything, if God is the one that is in control of our thoughts and actions in the first place?

This leads to the idea [in a slippery-slope kind of way] that, "Because I sin, God meant me to sin, therefore I am doing God's will even while sinning."

[Boo]

Why does God repeatedly tell us to "turn from our sins" if we didn't have free will? What is the point of God telling us anything, if God is the one that is in control of our thoughts and actions in the first place?

This leads to the idea [in a slippery-slope kind of way] that, "Because I sin, God meant me to sin, therefore I am doing God's will even while sinning."

I've actually had a guy tell me that one day. He claimed total innocense since everthing he did was in God's will.

[Ceegen]

I've actually had a guy tell me that one day. He claimed total innocense since everthing he did was in God's will.

Yep, hidden/secret knowledge. Mystery religion junk.

[Ta-An]

What is the difference between :"Free will" and "Free choice"
If it has been answered already, please guide me to that post ...Thanks

[Boo]

What is the difference between :"Free will" and "Free choice"
If it has been answered already, please guide me to that post ...Thanks

I would say that there is a signficant difference, but we tend to use the terms interchangably.

Free will allows us free choice. It is the broader aspect of the concept.

[Nobunaga]

What is the difference between :"Free will" and "Free choice"
If it has been answered already, please guide me to that post ...Thanks

They are basically the same, the act of will is simply determining what you want, and therefore choosing that which you want.

[Boo]

They are basically the same, the act of will is simply determining what you want, and therefore choosing that which you want.

Well, yes, put that way; they are. Free will and the act of will are not the same. That was my point. An act of will is a choice.