CAN A PERSON LOVE GOD WITHOUT OBEYING HIM ?

[PJW]

The heart is just a metaphor for the mind. The mind does not operate without knowledge That is why Paul commands us to renew our minds. I haven't observed one person in all my life who has demonstrated God's laws are written on their hearts. Have you?

Unless you believe Christians are without sin. If you do, we have a problem. If you agree that Christians sin, then you've just put them all under the Law according to your application of Romans 3. Which is it?

I'm glad I read all the posts before replying to this one.
I do believe that the true Christians are free from committing sin. Their "old selves" have been crucified and a new creature was born of incorruptable seed.
If so-called Christians sin, they are under the law, "For by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Rom 3:20)
Jesus said, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."
Free of what?
Jesus' next words were, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo 8:32,34)
The truth has freed me from servitude to sin.
The only reason to have a problem with that is if you won't turn from sin (repent).

[Boo]

I've heard before that the "heart" and the "mind" were the same. I think there may be a tecnicality in that which proves true, but it doesn't feel that way to me.

I can know things with my mind, but sometimes I get this "gut feeling" that something is wrong, and my mind doesn't know what it is.

That tells me that it is not all conscious mind. There is something inside me that works separately from my mind. It takes effort and time to sort out what my "heart?" told me.

[keck553]

I've heard before that the "heart" and the "mind" were the same. I think there may be a tecnicality in that which proves true, but it doesn't feel that way to me.

I can know things with my mind, but sometimes I get this "gut feeling" that something is wrong, and my mind doesn't know what it is.

That tells me that it is not all conscious mind. There is something inside me that works separately from my mind. It takes effort and time to sort out what my "heart?" told me.

The Bible tells us not to follow our "hearts."

Jeremiah 17:19
Matthew 15:19

[Saved7]

Well, it was a tongue-in-cheek comment. Our outward obedience to God's Laws have been so marginalized by mainstream Christian doctrine (notibly charismatic doctrine) that I've actually been afraid to outwardly obey God for fear that I would be judged as a person doing a dead work by the very people who constantly say not to judge. It's a dichotemy actually; I've never really understood it. God says do, man says if you do as God says, it's insufficient. Insufficient for salvation? Perhaps! But insufficient to give glory and honor to the LORD? NO! Insufficient as a human expression of love, trust and faith that God means what He says? NO!

The very people who have bombarded others with accusations of me practicing legalism out of one side of their mouth tell them to obey two commandments given through Moses, but toss the rest out in the trash. God's Word doesn't belong in the 86 can, IMHO.

People say if I obey God's Law that I am under God's Law. Yet the same people cite God's Law as a measure of obedience with these two commandments. As if God is incapable of dispensing grace to someone faithfully trying to obey God. These (love God and love your neighbor) are from God., given to Moses. It's funny, people through two laws given to Moses out there, and in the same breath chastize someone for "following Moses."

In the end, we all have to make a crucial decision. Obey God as we know how, or obey men's doctrines. It's a blurred line, because I don't have a problem with doctrine within the bounds of say, the Westminster Chatechism. But all this hocus pocus stuff about instant sanctification, being sinless after being regenerated or "walking in the Spirit" without needing God's Word (even though it's part of our armor in Ephesians 6).....I have not witnessed much holiness from that.

When someone says "love God" and ignores the rest of God's commandments, I want to know two things from them - who defines "love" and how we are to love God. And when someone says "love your neighbor," I want to know the same from them who dispense with the rest of God's Laws - who defines that love, and how we are to love our neighbor. Not in vague non specific hypothetical terms, but solid applicable Biblical terms. It's all there. But for some reason people shy away from all those instructions for fear of being called "legalistic."

I couldn't rep you, need to spread some around, but all I can say is very well said!!

[Boo]

The Bible tells us not to follow our "hearts."

Jeremiah 17:19
Matthew 15:19

Thanks for the information, but you need to check your Jeremiah reference. I think there must be a typo.

Also, the words of Jesus in Matthew does not tell you not to follow your heart. It tells you that, at a time before the New Covenant, before God wrote His laws on our hearts, that our hearts were evil. At least, that is what this verse indicates to me.

[John 8:32]

Thanks for the information, but you need to check your Jeremiah reference. I think there must be a typo.

Also, the words of Jesus in Matthew does not tell you not to follow your heart. It tells you that, at a time before the New Covenant, before God wrote His laws on our hearts, that our hearts were evil. At least, that is what this verse indicates to me.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Watchman]

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Ezekiel 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

[John 8:32]

Ezekiel 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Right back atcha Watchman, my friend...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

[Watchman]

Yep.

blessings,

Watchman

[keck553]

Ezekiel 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

So now that the Scripture portion has been expanded, what is the context?

WHO?
WHAT?
WHEN?
WHERE?

[John 8:32]

So now that the Scripture portion has been expanded, what is the context?

WHO?

Ephraim and Manasseh

Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

WHAT?

The gathering of Israel from where they have been scattered.

WHEN?

Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

At the return of Jesus Christ when David is resurrected and made king of all Israel, Israel and Judah united.

WHERE?

Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

The land promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for an eternal inheritance. The land Judah is currently living in.

[keck553]

Thank you for puttiong this passage into context. Great job!