Why does the 62 weeks of Daniel 9:26 begin 407 - 400 B.C.?

[Fenris]

In my first response in this thread, I gave a link to another thread (March 25, 2012 discussion: "444 BC, not 457 BC, The beginning 'bookend' date for Daniel's prophecy") in which you responded 7 times. I have always assumed that you silently followed that discussion to the end, since you seemed pretty invested in the subject (and, properly so, I thought, since it was about whether or not your Messiah had come).

I don't think Daniel 9 is about he messiah. In never uses the expression "the messiah". It says "an anointed", which sounds completely different.

Anyway, the crux of the fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy (as well as the need to explain why the "70 years" of Exile was shy by about one year) depends on whether or not the length of the year at the time of Creation, and even well past that time, was of 360 days.

It seems to me that the crux of fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy depends a lot on picking the right starting date and the right length of a year.

[Daniel Gracely]

It seems to me that the crux of fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy depends a lot on picking the right starting date and the right length of a year.

I agree. I find it interesting that apparently for centuries no Christian scholar seemed to piece together the Apostle John’s mention of two 1260-day periods in Revelation to that of the remaining 70th week of Daniel, until Sir Robert Anderson expressed the idea in the 19th century.

Also, it’s odd that Daniel mentions how he searched the scrolls concerning Jeremiah’s Prophecy of the time of the Exile. I would think that every Jew would have been aware that 70 years had been prophesied. With the benefit of historical hindsight, I would guess that Daniel had begun to see Cyrus’ intent to allow the Jews to return, but realized it was coming a year sooner than he expected. Or perhaps he wasn’t surprised. For IF there was general knowledge that just a few centuries before, the years had been 360 days long (something corroborative from Daniel’s presumed knowledge of Gen. 7 and 8), perhaps Daniel himself felt that if the Sabbath years that had failed to be observed were of 360 days, that a quid pro quo would suggest that the Exile’s years should also be the same, in which case Daniel may have actually expected Cyrus to make his decree a year ‘early’. I don’t think we can know for sure what Daniel anticipated, but it makes for interesting speculation.

BTW I already assumed you didn’t equate “an anointed prince” in Daniel 9 with the Messiah. I’m not sure what to say, except that I personally feel that the historical evidence for the length of time of the Exile, Gen. 7 and 8, and so forth, ultimately form enough circumstantial evidence to present a reasonable argument for the beginning and ending ‘bookend’ dates of Daniel’s prophecy according to my outline given in the Mar. 25th, 2012 thread (Apr. 6, 444 BC to Apr. 27, 33 AD for the 69 weeks).

One other note I failed to mention was that in David’s time (ca. 1000 BC) the Levitical priests were divided into 24 courses for temple service, apparently for new moon to full moon, full moon to new moon, and so forth, to cover the 12 months; yet no biblical instructions are given for the contingency of an intercalated month. I don’t know if Jewish commentators address this, but I would be interested to know if they wrote on this point. I guess you see where I’m going with this. Does the lack of instructions for what to do in the case of an intercalated month suggest there was no intercalated months at that time, because of a 360 day year? We know, at least, that a strictly lunar calendar would have caused the festivals to drift to inappropriate seasons within just a few decades or so, therefore the Jews could not have been using that. But if they used a lunar-solar calendar, why were there no instructions given for what to do during years in which an intercalated month occurred, which happened about 7 times in 19 years?

However, even if I’m right about the earth having a 360-day orbit during David’s era, I cannot explain why later, e.g. after the Exile, there is still no recorded instructions regarding the Levitical courses when, in fact, there had to have been intercalated months at that point, given the knowledge of Babylonian astronomy at the time. Zacharias, John the Baptist’s father, is said to have been of the family which, according to the Old Testament, served in the 8th course. Ultimately, this helps to place the time of Christ’s birth to what was likely mid-Sept. to mid-Nov. But I still have a question about which priestly course or courses served in the intercalated month that was placed immediately prior to Nisan, during the era of the gospels, and during the centuries BC, too. If you know what sources I could turn to for this information, I would appreciate it. It just seems odd that some priests might have done double duty, so to speak, during years in which there was an intercalated month. If there was double duty, was it always the same Levitical courses that got stuck with the job? Or would they have considered it a privilege to serve twice as long in the Temple during years with an intercalated month, even though it kept them away from their families? Minor points, perhaps. But I still like to run down all the rabbit trails to ensure I’m not IMO overlooking anything.

[Cyberseeker]

... IF there was general knowledge that just a few centuries before, the years had been 360 days long ...

When we search the Dead Sea scrolls we find an ancient calendar intercalated from 360 to 364 days. Further examination expands it to 365.242. Here is the link to an article I wrote about it some time ago.

The Calendar of Enoch

I have no problem with the idea that God used a 360-day count on several occasions. However, there are problems with arguing for a sudden velocity reduction in the earths orbit around the sun. May I suggest instead, that a 360-day system was used for prophetic purposes and that it ran parallel to (and could be intercalated with) the earths natural solar and lunar cycles?

[Fenris]

Also, it’s odd that Daniel mentions how he searched the scrolls concerning Jeremiah’s Prophecy of the time of the Exile. I would think that every Jew would have been aware that 70 years had been prophesied.

How would every Jew know that? Did they read it on the internet? See it on CNN? Read it in the local newspaper?

This is very anachronistic. Daniel would have known because he was one of the elites who was exiled. The common people, many of whom were illiterate, would not have known.

With the benefit of historical hindsight, I would guess that Daniel had begun to see Cyrus’ intent to allow the Jews to return, but realized it was coming a year sooner than he expected.

It's not clear that Daniel was even alive when Cyrus allowed the Jews to return. He would have been over 100 so I suppose it is possible...

BTW I already assumed you didn’t equate “an anointed prince” in Daniel 9 with the Messiah. I’m not sure what to say, except that I personally feel that the historical evidence for the length of time of the Exile, Gen. 7 and 8, and so forth, ultimately form enough circumstantial evidence to present a reasonable argument for the beginning and ending ‘bookend’ dates of Daniel’s prophecy according to my outline given in the Mar. 25th, 2012 thread (Apr. 6, 444 BC to Apr. 27, 33 AD for the 69 weeks).

Again, it helps to pick a good start date and year length.

One other note I failed to mention was that in David’s time (ca. 1000 BC) the Levitical priests were divided into 24 courses for temple service, apparently for new moon to full moon, full moon to new moon, and so forth, to cover the 12 months;

First of all, they did weekly courses not monthly courses. Second of all, the 24 courses appear to be a second temple phenomena not a first temple one.

yet no biblical instructions are given for the contingency of an intercalated month. I don’t know if Jewish commentators address this, but I would be interested to know if they wrote on this point. I guess you see where I’m going with this. Does the lack of instructions for what to do in the case of an intercalated month suggest there was no intercalated months at that time, because of a 360 day year?

12 lunar months is 354 days not 360 days.

We know, at least, that a strictly lunar calendar would have caused the festivals to drift to inappropriate seasons within just a few decades or so, therefore the Jews could not have been using that. But if they used a lunar-solar calendar, why were there no instructions given for what to do during years in which an intercalated month occurred, which happened about 7 times in 19 years?

perhaps instructions did exist, in the oral law.

However, even if I’m right about the earth having a 360-day orbit during David’s era,

Ah.

[dancedwithdolphin]

Why not explore it from YHVH's reckoning of time? Since it was a prophetic observance of time. YHVH's reckoning of time was in observance until Jerusalems destruction. The San Hedrian met and changed the biblical calendar to that of a calculated calendar which is used today. For what you guys are trying to figure out it would make more sense to look at it from a biblical standpoint.

The decree was given by YHVH to Hagai (Haggai) and to Ezra. Ezra's book deals with the decree given by king Koresh (Cyrus) of Persia. Also Zechariah deals with this same prophecy. So the question is, which decree is first? Was it talking about the decree of Cyrus (which was given in king Cyrus' first year). Chapter 3 of Ezra says When the seventh month arrived, after the people of Israel had resettled in the towns, the people gathered with one accord in Yerushalayim....organized the rebuilding of the alter...They observed the festival of Sukkot as written... It also later says in the second year after their arrival and also in the second month and in verse 10 then it says the builders laid the foundation of the Temple.

Now I have no clue how to figure out what was Cyrus' first year scripturally speaking. Since it speaks of it being second month for example we know it is using biblical reckoning of time since Israel, at that time didnt name their months or days. The beginning of a biblical year was the based on the barley harvest (first fruits and passover), this is YHVH's command. Since this is when Israel was delivered out of Egypt.

I didnt see where it said Cyrus decreed this on such and such day. But I can assume it was after the 70th year of exile. Now Daniel was still around when Cyrus and Darius were, he was the one that had to come and explain the writing on the wall. Which Babylon at that moment in time was being taken over by the Medes and Persians. So we have clues.

Have you guys looked into this for your starting point?

[Fenris]

The commonly accepted date for Cyrus's decree is 538 BC.

[divaD]

I don't think Daniel 9 is about he messiah. In never uses the expression "the messiah". It says "an anointed", which sounds completely different.

.

It's really too bad that you don't find the NT credible. I think there's several passages where Jesus is said to have been anointed by God. Acts 10 is one good place to look, starting around verse 34. I think it's verse 38 where we're told Jesus was anointed by God. So putting 2 and 2 together then, since I'm assuming most professed Christians conclude the Messiah was Jesus, then it doesn't matter if Dan 9 didn't mean Messiah necessarily, but meant an anointed instead. It still adds up to the same person Dan 9 has in mind. That person being Jesus of course.

[Fenris]

It's really too bad that you don't find the NT credible.

It's not "too bad". I believe what I believe.

My only point was that the verse doesn't say "the messiah". If you want to believe that it's referring to Jesus because he was anointed, that's fine. But people should use it as a proof because that isn't what it says.

[divaD]

But people should use it as a proof because that isn't what it says.

Didn't you mean to say should not use it as proof, instead of use it as proof?

A question for you Fenris? Why don't you want the one being spoken about in Dan 9 to be Jesus? What does it mean to you if really is meaning Him? Could it possibly mean that you have misinterpreted other Scriptures? If not, then why is it so important to you that Dan 9 isn't referring to Jesus? You might ask the same. But I would think you already know the answer to that. Professed Christians conclude it's meaning Jesus, because it agrees with what's recorded in the NT, for one.

[Fenris]

A question for you Fenris? Why don't you want the one being spoken about in Dan 9 to be Jesus?

"Why don't I want?" What does that mean? As if my wishes are important? The chapter means what it means.


I don't think it's the messiah, period. And all this juggling of starting dates and lengths of a year does nothing for me.

[Daniel Gracely]

Fenris writes:

First of all, they did weekly courses not monthly courses. Second of all, the 24 courses appear to be a second temple phenomena not a first temple one.

I never said they were "monthly" courses. I said "the Levitical priests were divided into 24 courses for temple service, apparently for new moon to full moon, full moon to new moon, and so forth, to cover the 12 months". I think from this statement it should have been plain I was speaking of 2 courses per month, for 12 months, which equaled 24 courses.

Secondly, I refer you to 1 Chronicles 24, which shows that the 24 courses were set by David, and therefore was a feature of the First Temple also, not just the Second Temple.

Thirdly, you claim that the courses (orders) were weekly. But 24 courses repeated twice does not fit into your lunar year of 354 days, which is approx. 50.5 weeks. Why wouldn't you suppose there were two orders per month, making 24 orders per 12 months?

Finally, is there a reason you refuse for the upteenth time to answer my point about 5 months equaling 150 days in Genesis 7 and 8, which fits only a 360-day year in which each lunar month was 30 days? For again you merely assert that

"12 lunar months is 354 days not 360 days"

That's your answer????

Your repeated unwillingness and/or inability to answer my repeated question about statements in Gen. 7 and 8, imply either you do not hold to the principle of inerrancy regarding the Old Testament, or else that you have an unteachable spirit.

Indeed, how many times must I ask you to address the statements in Gen. 7 and 8, which show that 5 months was 150 days in Noah's time, an interval that fits neither the lunar year of 354 days nor the Julian year of 365+, but only a 360-day year? Your red herring reiteration that a lunar year is 354 days does not impress, but does suggest you're confusing assertions with reasons. If you can't answer this one question, I trust you're too considerate to waste my time by again replying off point, since your last comment about how many days a lunar year has today had no relevance.

[dancedwithdolphin]

Wasnt this passage already fulfilled?


Land conquered by Alexander the Great; Hellenistic rule.
As part of the ancient world conquered by Alexander the Great of Greece (332 BCE), the Land remained a Jewish theocracy under Syrian-based Seleucid rulers.




Maccabean (Hasmonean) revolt against restrictions on practice of Judaism and desecration of the Temple
When the Jews were prohibited from practicing Judaism and their Temple was desecrated as part of an effort to impose Greek-oriented culture and customs on the entire population, the Jews rose in revolt (166 BCE). First led by Mattathias of the priestly Hasmonean family and then by his son Judah the Maccabee, the Jews subsequently entered Jerusalem and purified the Temple (164 BCE).

Messiah in Daniel is only mentioned in verse 26 Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing.
And "the annointing" is only done to the Most Holy Place. Then in verse 25 it speaks of an anointed prince. We know that Jesus (Yeshua) didnt come to be a king at his first appearing. His first coming was to redeem as a Passover Lamb. And YHVH is King of kings and Lord of lords, not a prince. In Daniel however, it does call Michael a prince in chapter 10 verse 21 (however it does talk about Mikhael and Gabriel fighting against other princes of Persia and Greece), (like it says in Ephesians 6:12 because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh but with the principalities with the authorities with the world rulers of the darkness of this age with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places).

It just might need a different looking into than what we have heard. I am speaking for myself here. I mean I had always believed what church had taught me, but now I believe in taking a closer look.

Just a little bit of input here.

[Daniel Gracely]

Wasnt this passage already fulfilled?


Land conquered by Alexander the Great; Hellenistic rule.
As part of the ancient world conquered by Alexander the Great of Greece (332 BCE), the Land remained a Jewish theocracy under Syrian-based Seleucid rulers.




Maccabean (Hasmonean) revolt against restrictions on practice of Judaism and desecration of the Temple
When the Jews were prohibited from practicing Judaism and their Temple was desecrated as part of an effort to impose Greek-oriented culture and customs on the entire population, the Jews rose in revolt (166 BCE). First led by Mattathias of the priestly Hasmonean family and then by his son Judah the Maccabee, the Jews subsequently entered Jerusalem and purified the Temple (164 BCE).

Messiah in Daniel is only mentioned in verse 26 Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing.
And "the annointing" is only done to the Most Holy Place. Then in verse 25 it speaks of an anointed prince. We know that Jesus (Yeshua) didnt come to be a king at his first appearing. His first coming was to redeem as a Passover Lamb. And YHVH is King of kings and Lord of lords, not a prince. In Daniel however, it does call Michael a prince in chapter 10 verse 21 (however it does talk about Mikhael and Gabriel fighting against other princes of Persia and Greece), (like it says in Ephesians 6:12 because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh but with the principalities with the authorities with the world rulers of the darkness of this age with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places).

It just might need a different looking into than what we have heard. I am speaking for myself here. I mean I had always believed what church had taught me, but now I believe in taking a closer look.

Just a little bit of input here.

Your suggestion is generally the one advocated by non-Christians in an attempt to prove the "anointed one" was not Jesus. The claim often relies on placing a comma between 7 weeks and 62 weeks, following the punctuation in the Masoretic text which came centuries after Christ fulfilled this prophecy. There was no punctuation in the original Old Testament text, and nothing grammatical in the phrase "7 weeks and 62 weeks" demands a comma.

[Fenris]

Fenris writes:


I never said they were "monthly" courses. I said "the Levitical priests were divided into 24 courses for temple service, apparently for new moon to full moon, full moon to new moon, and so forth, to cover the 12 months". I think from this statement it should have been plain I was speaking of 2 courses per month, for 12 months, which equaled 24 courses.

The courses were one week, not two.

Secondly, I refer you to 1 Chronicles 24, which shows that the 24 courses were set by David, and therefore was a feature of the First Temple also, not just the Second Temple.

The list of priests is actually a second-temple list.

Thirdly, you claim that the courses (orders) were weekly. But 24 courses repeated twice does not fit into your lunar year of 354 days, which is approx. 50.5 weeks. Why wouldn't you suppose there were two orders per month, making 24 orders per 12 months?

That makes no sense either. Two orders per month would be 28 days and the lunar month has 29 or 30 days.

Finally, is there a reason you refuse for the upteenth time to answer my point about 5 months equaling 150 days in Genesis 7 and 8, which fits only a 360-day year in which each lunar month was 30 days?

Where does it say that 5 month is 150 days?

For again you merely assert that



That's your answer????

Um, yeah, it is. I can look at the sky and count days, and 12 lunar months is 354 days.

[Fenris]

Your suggestion is generally the one advocated by non-Christians in an attempt to prove the "anointed one" was not Jesus. .

It's not an attempt to "prove" anything. The verse says what it says. You've already decided that it's Jesus and won't hear anything to the contrary.