Christian Jailed for Hosting Home Bible Study

[Fenris]

Yeah the issue seems to be zoning laws, not what that he's preaching the bible or whatever. Unless the zoning laws were written specifically to stop people from holding bible class I don't see the problem.

[Scooby_Snacks]

http://phoenix.gov/news/071212salmanfacts.html

Thanks for the added information oscarkipling!

One of my things that stood out to me about the video was the way his wife was saying they are being persecuted.
No one has to look for or create persecution to appear a martyr, if walking in His will, it'll happen.

I edited this because in truth this guy angered me, so I need to pray about that, for my own good.

[keck553]

Like I said. He should have called it poker night.

[Reynolds357]

Yeah the issue seems to be zoning laws, not what that he's preaching the bible or whatever. Unless the zoning laws were written specifically to stop people from holding bible class I don't see the problem.

It would be fine for 15 people to come play air hockey, but not fine for them to come pray.
What about if they play old maid for five minutes before they start singing and praying?

[Reynolds357]

Hi Reynolds,

I was discussing the O.P. that happened here, in the U.S.A. where churches are allowed to be constructed to worship Jesus.
I am so greatful that I was born in a country where this is the case, and can tend to be mortified that I have so much freedom, while others elsewhere have so little.

God is the same God in the U.S.A. that He is in Iran. If you are saying God would "never have us break the law in the U.S." then it is only logical that he would never have any of His disciples break the Law in Iran. It seems quite a few of His disciples broke the law in Rome because most of them eventually ended up crucified, boiled, stoned, or exiled to die. That does not happen to you by being law abiding.

[Reynolds357]

http://phoenix.gov/news/071212salmanfacts.html

The Michael Salman court case is about building safety. Building and safety codes are in-place to protect the safety and welfare of all of our residents. Some of the relevant facts in this case include:

A house of worship is allowed in any zoning district in the City of Phoenix
The case is about the building that is used for regular assembly does not meet construction and fire code requirements for assembly

All houses of worship in the City of Phoenix must conform to the same codes

Mr. Salman had regular gatherings of up to 80 people. He held services twice a week and collected a tithe at the services. The building that he held services in had a dais and chairs were aligned in a pew formation. He held himself out as a being a church through the media (Harvest Christian Church) and claimed a church status for tax exemption purposes on his property.

Due to the regular, reoccurring high vehicular traffic in this quiet residential neighborhood, neighbors repeatedly complained about the public assembly occurring on his property. Because of the multiple, reoccurring complaints, the City investigated the activity and discovered numerous building code violations primarily related to fire safety standards. Once apprised of these violations, the City could be held liable for not enforcing safety code requirements in the event anyone was injured on the premises. Prior to commencement of prosecution, Mr. Salman was asked, repeatedly, to comply with the safety codes of the City. He chose to ignore these requests for voluntary compliance prior to the commencement of any proceedings.

Below is a summary of the case from the City's Law Department, including quotes from the relevant court judgments.

Timeline

Mr. Salman's interaction regarding his property dates back to 2006, when he was advised by the Zoning Administrator that his property was analogous to a church and required compliance with the Zoning Ordinance.

During 2007, Mr. Salman had interaction with the City regarding his attempts to build on his property. The issue revolves around Mr. Salman's assertion that he is building a detached garage, when the building is actually to function as a church. Mr. Salman builds, despite not having a proper permit. On May 1, 2007, he is cited for, and eventually pleads responsible to building without the required permit. (Pleads responsible 7/18/2007)

In the Fall of 2007, Mr. Salman is notified several times by the City that he needs to obtain the proper permits and approvals before holding church services on his property.

In 2008, Mr. Salman's church, Harvest Christian Fellowship Community Church, is issued a Building Permit to construct a 2,000 square foot private game room accessory to an existing single family residence. The permit states, "Any other occupancy or use (business, commercial, assembly, church, etc.) is expressly prohibited pursuant to the City of Phoenix Building Code and Zoning Ordinances."

During 2009-2010 church services are held on Mr. Salman's property without proper permits and in violation of safety concerns. As a result, Mr. Salman is cited.

On January 4, 2010, Harvest Christian Fellowship Community Church is found responsible for 96 civil code violations. The Court notes, "[T]he State is not saying the Salmans can't run a church or have worship services at the location, but the State is saying that if they do so, they must do it properly and in accord with the building, fire, and zoning codes."

On August 30, 2010, Mr. Salman was found guilty of 67 Class 1 Misdemeanors. The Court stated, "Everyone is entitled under the United States Constitution to worship as they please. But there is a reason for these codes and that is for public safety. And that, I believe, is all that the State is asking is that the Code violations be rectified."

Mr. Salman appealed his convictions. On June 2, 2011, the Maricopa County Superior Court upheld the convictions and stated, "[T]he Defendant was engaged in public or church activities, and further that Defendant's convictions did not violate his Constitutional right to religious freedom."

The Court sentenced Mr. Salman to serve jail time. He was ordered to report to jail on June 18, 2012. The county jail relies on a Department of Public Safety table of criminal codes to confirm the basis for the incarceration when a person self surrenders. The table did not include the particular charge on Mr. Salman's confinement order. Mr. Salman was, therefore, not incarcerated. The table has been corrected.

On June 28, 2012, a Probation Revocation Arraignment was held alleging violations of Mr. Salman's sentence by twice having a gathering in excess of 12 people on his premises while not in compliance with all ordinances and failing to cooperate with the Court's Financial Screening.

It is safe for 15 people to play games but not safe for 15 people to read and sing?
How bout if they play the game of who can find the citation I am preaching on quickest in their Bible? Would that be legal?
When they finish that game, they can play who can find it quickest in the hymnal.

[Fenris]

It is safe for 15 people to play games but not safe for 15 people to read and sing?

He had gatherings of up to 80 people.

"[T]he State is not saying the Salmans can't run a church or have worship services at the location, but the State is saying that if they do so, they must do it properly and in accord with the building, fire, and zoning codes."

Let's not make more of it than it is.

[Watchman]

This man, while one with noble intentions, ignored the laws of Arizona. He is now reaping the consequences of his actions. End of story.

[Scooby_Snacks]

God is the same God in the U.S.A. that He is in Iran. If you are saying God would "never have us break the law in the U.S." then it is only logical that he would never have any of His disciples break the Law in Iran. It seems quite a few of His disciples broke the law in Rome because most of them eventually ended up crucified, boiled, stoned, or exiled to die. That does not happen to you by being law abiding.

Reynolds, I was saying that he did not have to break the law here, he chose to.

[BrianW]

Yeah, I saw a big story on this on one of the Christian networks and you and others are correct Scooby_Snacks.

The problem here is not that the guy was having a bible study. The problem is that the guy got permits for a game room and built a church instead. He did not use the building as a game room he used it as a church and he planed on using it for a church instead of a game room from the start.

He could have used the building as a church if he brought the building up to code and got the proper permits.

I worked in the construction/remodeling trade for many years. The codes are there for safety reasons not only for him and the people that attend his church but for his neighbors as well. He chose to ignore repeated warnings and is now paying the price.

His rights weren't trampled on. He was trying to put one over on the authorities --and ignoring the safety concerns in the process--and was finally smacked down for it.

[keck553]

He had gatherings of up to 80 people.

"[T]he State is not saying the Salmans can't run a church or have worship services at the location, but the State is saying that if they do so, they must do it properly and in accord with the building, fire, and zoning codes."

Let's not make more of it than it is.

80 people? wow. Zoning laws, fire codes, building codes exist mostly for public safety. There are also laws in the Bible against putting people at risk on one's own private property. I think this guy might be breaking some of those also.

And please, no one start with the "Jesus did away with God's Law" thing here.

[Reynolds357]

He had gatherings of up to 80 people.

"[T]he State is not saying the Salmans can't run a church or have worship services at the location, but the State is saying that if they do so, they must do it properly and in accord with the building, fire, and zoning codes."

Let's not make more of it than it is.

Can he have 80 people there to play game?

[Reynolds357]

Yeah, I saw a big story on this on one of the Christian networks and you and others are correct Scooby_Snacks.

The problem here is not that the guy was having a bible study. The problem is that the guy got permits for a game room and built a church instead. He did not use the building as a game room he used it as a church and he planed on using it for a church instead of a game room from the start.

He could have used the building as a church if he brought the building up to code and got the proper permits.

I worked in the construction/remodeling trade for many years. The codes are there for safety reasons not only for him and the people that attend his church but for his neighbors as well. He chose to ignore repeated warnings and is now paying the price.

His rights weren't trampled on. He was trying to put one over on the authorities --and ignoring the safety concerns in the process--and was finally smacked down for it.

Number of occupancy and type of use is the real issue here if one is truly concerned about safety. If it is safe for x number to occupy to play games then it is safe for x number to occupy to sing and pray. In my mind, the two usages are similar enough to constitute the same safety issues. Its not as if he permitted it as a game room and then used it as a concert hall with pyrotecnic displays.

[BrianW]

The building wasn't up to code man. It's the law. Jesus had no problem paying taxes and we Christians shouldn't have any problems obeying laws that don't go against God's will and commandments.

You know this.

[doug3]

No way is this persecution.

This man has arrogantly broken laws regarding building codes.

Oskarkipling, Fenris and others have stated all that needs saying.

If anyone wants to read about, and pray for, the real persecuted church we have a forum expressly for that. There you will find find posts indicating that real persecution of Christians is indeed increasing in the USA, and in other western nations such as UK. As well as read about the daily oppression - and almost weekly slaughter now - of our brother and sisters throughout the world.


Further Information

I think this article might give us a few clues to his motivation: http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-...n-t-buying-it/