Does anyone know what John 16:7 means ? Why did Jesus have to leave first ?
Does anyone know what John 16:7 means ? Why did Jesus have to leave first ?
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Just curious. When starting a thread, does your caps lock automatically turn on?
(Sorry, I notice those things)
The Bible doesn't tell us, so all you're going to get is speculation. If there is a discoverable answer, it would be what goes on between Pesach and Shavu'ot
'You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. In the name of God, go!''
- Winston Churchill quoting Cromwell
Well, keck is right. What you will get is speculative. So here's my speculation.
I don't think it's a matter of the Holy Spirit being physically and spiritually impotent, restrained, and unable to come down. It's that He wasn't needed in that regard until Jesus ascended and the many, many disciples had obeyed and met in Jerusalem and spent many days in prayer and were of one accord. The Holy Spirit was with Jesus and God from the beginning as He is a part of them. And He has had a role in creation and humanity from the beginning. It's just that His timeless and unchanging role is about to take on a new aspect. Just like Jesus took on a new aspect to His timeless and unchanging role when He came to earth as a baby.
Until Jesus ascended, HE was their personal counselor, convicter, teacher, guide, protector, advocate, and more. But it was time for Him to take His rightful place on the throne and to fulfill even more aspects of His eternal and unchanging role - that of Intercessor and more. And in John 17, Jesus prays a very burdened prayer to God for the Father to protect the disciples that He (Jesus) is leaving behind. He is concerned for them being left alone. And in John 14, when He is tryng to explain this to them, Jesus tells them that He will ask the Father to send another Advocate that will be with them forever (permanently).
They don't need to be spoon-fed and held by the hand anymore. It's time for the disciples to leave the school yard and the nest to go out and preach the gospel to all the world.
But they DO need Someone who will remind them of all the words of Jesus, convict them of sin, empower them to do mighty things, guide them, and supernaturally fill them with counsel, strength, peace, joy, and more.
If Jesus were to have physically stayed with them until they died, they would have forever been disciples and never become apostles.
So I don't see this as Jesus saying that the Holy Spirit is forbidden in anyway, but that until He (Jesus) ascends, He (Jesus) is fulfilling that role to a small group of men and women. The Holy Spirit, in living in the bodily Temple of all Christians will fulfill that role to literal millions.
".....it's your nickel"
Not sure. But how about this for a possible answer.
Jesus needed to die on the cross in order to pay for our sins and for the new covenant to be established. Jesus was always to return to the father in heaven, but he did not leave us alone. He said he would send us the Holy Spirit, the spirit of truth and our comforter.
Pauli Exclusion Rule - No two particles of identical quantum state may occupy the same space.
Well let's see. The Comforter, the Holy Spirit comes to us through Jesus the Christ. Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;-----Through meaning Jesus sends the Comforter to us from the Father. John 15:26 YLT `And when the Comforter may come, whom I will send to you from the Father -- the Spirit of truth, who from the Father doth come forth, he will testify of me;-----What does that mean? Does it mean Jesus had to receive the Holy Spirit from the Father before he could be sent to us? Acts 2:33 YLT at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear;
Paul ask the question: Galatians 3:2 YLT this only do I wish to learn from you -- by works of law the Spirit did ye receive, or by the hearing of faith?-----John 16:7 YLT `But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;-----What was the faith they heard about by which the spirit was sent/given to them? What was the going away of Jesus? Galatians 3:1 YLT O thoughtless Galatians, who did bewitch you, not to obey the truth -- before whose eyes Jesus Christ was described before among you crucified? His death on the cross was the faith they heard of, by which the promise of the Spirit was given. Galatians 3:22 YLT but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise (of the Holy Spirit) by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing.
What did Jesus have to say about this going away? Did he believe he would come back? John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. Jesus knew they did not understand. V19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me? Therefore he explains. V20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. The world is going rejoice in his death his going away and they are going to have sorrow because he is dead. But their sorrow will not last for he Jesus will be; Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. John 16:21,22 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. The dead Jesus would be made alive no more to return to corruption; Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Therefore let me ask: Who has been through, washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, so that the Holy Spirit could be given to us?
19 yet a little, and the world doth no more behold me, and ye behold me, because I live, and ye shall live;
20 in that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you;
4 `Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God [is] one Jehovah;
It has to do with the promises God gave. The covenant given to all the children of Israel had to be renewed. Just as one renews its wedding vows. Israel is God's bride. So just as on the day they were led out of Egypt to Mount Sinai to recieve God's instructions, so too was the Passover of our Messiah. It was believed that fifty days after leaving Egypt, Israel recieved the commands written on stone. It was prophesied in Jeremiah 31:
31 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new covenant,
32 Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them -- an affirmation of Jehovah.
33 For this [is] the covenant that I make, With the house of Israel, after those days, An affirmation of Jehovah, I have given My law in their inward part, And on their heart I do write it, And I have been to them for God, And they are to me for a people.
34 And they do not teach any more Each his neighbour, and each his brother, Saying, Know ye Jehovah, For they all know Me, from their least unto their greatest, An affirmation of Jehovah; For I pardon their iniquity, And of their sin I make mention no more.
Jesus is the fulfillment of scriptures. Many things in the Torah we recognize as shadow pictures of better things to come. And there is still plenty more to come.
"Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!"
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The Father, Jesus (The Word) and the Holy Spirit are One.
So Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One.
That's why Jesus said:
20 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
So did Jesus leave them? Yes, But Jesus is with them always even to the end of the world. So who came to them on the day of Pentecost? The Holy Spirit who is Jesus in a different form. Because the three are One.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Did Jesus receive the Holy Spirit from the Father before it was shed/poured out on us?
These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Note (more or less in order of occurrence):
1. Jesus preached these things in the synagogue (He had just finished saying that unless the follower ate His flesh and drank His blood, he had no life in him!) and the result was pretty clear - most people couldn't handle it. Preaching what sounded like cannibalism in a place of authority - it wasn't just a nice hillside talk, it was about as official as you could get.
2. He hid the whole truth from those who didn't follow Him after He preached those doctrines.
3. The truth was that those whose mind was on the flesh would not last and would ultimately be offended and probably even not understand what was being said. But that was by design. Jesus told the disciples who stayed in spite of the hard words that the flesh profits nothing - it's the spirit that gives life and that's what He was speaking, not fleshly things but spiritual.
4. An example of fleshly focus is whether it would do the disciples any good to watch Him ascend to heaven. Of itself, it wouldn't, but since He's speaking of the spirit here, we have a clue that there might be a connection.
5. Finally, Jesus reveals to those that stayed with Him that it is only through God's giving of them to Jesus that they are still with Him. Indeed, none could come to Him unless the Father grants it. The point here (for the purposes of this discussion) is that it serves to underscore the spiritual nature of Christ's ministry and work in His disciples and the necessity of God doing the work. It places a stark divide between the work and focus of men and the work and focus of God.
Which leads to the other passage I had in mind. I don't think anyone quoted it (though possibly from the same chapter?). And again, I am having trouble limiting what I paste because so much seems to pertain to what Jesus said. So I'm trying to focus :
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
I'm not sure I can do this justice, but I'll try :
1. The world wouldn't receive the Holy Spirit because it can't see the Holy Spirit. The disciples know the Holy Spirit exists because Jesus told them He would send it to them - and even commanded them to receive the Holy Spirit (John 20:22).
2. Recall the passage in John 6 in which Jesus says that the flesh profits nothing - in part He's showing the disciples that they are the ones who are in Him and not the world. They are distinguished from the world by their faith in Christ. They are the ones who saw and understood. The rest of the world was, for the most part, left in the dark. A fulfilling of Isaiah's commission.
3. Jesus, the people could see (even those that didn't really believe). But just seeing Jesus (and the miracles) didn't make one a believer - rather, the receiving of what He said did (and does). More to the point here is that the Holy Spirit was to take the things of Christ and make them real to the disciples (John 16:13-16). So part of the reason that Jesus had to go away was (as has been said) to cause them to grow in the things of Christ. But why did He have to leave to do that? It seems His absence, the disciple's faith and the invisibility of the Spirit are all linked in one common thrust.
4. And when talking about the Spirit, Jesus seamlessly transitions into talking about Himself. That the Spirit will come to them and Jesus says He will come to them (after saying He wouldn't leave them comfortless). So the disciples will "see" Jesus and they will "know" the Spirit.
Could that have happened if Jesus was with them? First they had to believe and be separated. Next they had to have their understanding changed. Finally, they had to receive what God was giving them and then they could start to see all that Jesus was doing. But it was all God's work and the world had to be able to see that without seeing the Holy Spirit (otherwise it wouldn't be by faith that some might see).
Finally, and maybe secondarily, the separation was necessary so that they could be witnesses to Christ. They would have to be witnesses to Him, know Him and the Holy Spirit and be equipped to authoritatively spread the gospel with the critical element of the Holy Spirit being preached. The world would never see the Spirit, but they could see those who walked with Christ and partook of the Spirit. The giving of the Spirit had to be separate from the earthly ministry of Christ for the world to have any hope of understanding both. The disciples/apostles were the link in the chain that both knew and partook.
I think I may be rambling now...hope that gives you a little to think about. It's really hard to express....
Last edited by nikolai_42; Jul 20th 2012 at 04:36 AM. Reason: formatting
What did Jesus mean by, go away? Go away where? How long was he gone or is he still gone?
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