What's my obligation with other Christians?

[Boo]

I agree that there are likely some things in scripture open to interpretation and can honestly be debated. Some things, however, are glaringly obvious as to whether or not they're sin. And yet, some people want to debate it because it doesn't fit their liking.

Trying to get someone who refuses to see is like trying to teach a pig to sing, no? The best we can do here is to try very hard not to be the one who is refusing to see.

[Eyelog]

And sometimes we neglect to see that the swine might just be us!

If you have learned your "truth" of scriptures from a preacher or a church Statement of Beliefs instead of from the words in scripture, your truth might just be man's truth and not God's.

Before we get upset with those with whom we argue, it might pay dividends to make sure that we really know why we believe what we do. It is really wonderful to see someone, who thought that he or she knew the truth, find a scripture that finally turns on the light of truth. For that person, it might be a "duh!" moment, but for me; I get to watch someone who was just blessed with understanding.

I have been the person having the "duh!" moment. When you are debating, keep in mind that both of you believe that you know the truth. Until God gives one or both of you your blessing of understanding, you might be the one who goes "duh!"

If it is the other person, the credit goes to God and not to ourselves. We are only servants (and brothers and sisters) passing on the Master's message.

Boo, it would be great if each person on this forum had this same attitude. Well said.

[Eyelog]

Sometimes people need to twist Scripture quite spectacularly to support whatever point they want to make, other times issues relate to a question like whether a particular verse is still relevant today. To take an example that I've seen more than once, Lev 19:28 makes it pretty clear that tattoos are a no-no although the people who like to quote it typically also like to overlook Lev 19:27 which forbids cutting the edges of our beards, and few people today expect women to be set apart during their period despite this being explicitly required in Lev 15:19.

Where it comes to figuring out which rules are eternal and which are contextual to the society of the day things can get pretty heated, on the basis that a simple disagreement can lead to one person regarding something as a clear sin and another regarding it as something that no longer applies. With a little bit of contextual twisting and reasoning there are all sorts of things one could come to regard as accepable on the basis society has changed, even if it does require all sorts of manoeuvrings to make the point.

The ultimate question goes back to the reason for looking to Scripture in the first place. Oscar Wilde referred to how a drunkard uses a lamppost more for support than illumination - if someone goes to Scripture looking for support for their own position they will probably find it even if they do have to twist the words. If someone goes to Scripture looking for illumination, looking for truth even if it means they have to change their position they are more likely to find enlightenment.

Sometimes, what seems like Scripture twisting is actually untwisting. It takes discernment to see which it is. All too often habits of belief and thought control, so we don't receive that illumination you speak of.

But are we not all trying to receive illumination rather than confirmation of our own ideas? Illumination is revelation from God.

But we have to be careful about the words translated, too. Word studies show that what we thought it said, may not be, or very likely isn't, more times than we might expect.

[Eyelog]

Your only obligated to tell them what scripture says, you can't make them believe it. I agree it get wearisome, when people continue to reject the truth of the scriptures, so they can keep hold of their own pet doctrine. If you resent the truth, and they don't want it, you can walk away, knowing you tried. Some people we will never get through to, they are too set in their ways, but we can pray and ask the Lord to open their eye.

blessings to you

I know what you mean. Some user was trying to get me to believe his view for over a month. He was extremely persistent. Then, one day, he just quit. Of course, I did have to insult him first, to get him to quit.

But was he right? Was he right to try?

Actually, he may have been right.

He was right to try.

And neither of us insulted the other, all the way thru, until he wasn't getting the hint I was done.

In my view, that is a success story.

I still look at the verses he cited, and ones like them, ... and I turn it over and over in my mind. It has made me plan to do an in-depth word study and such. So, persistent attempts to persuade are worthwhile in theory.

[Boo]

I know what you mean. Some user was trying to get me to believe his view for over a month. He was extremely persistent. Then, one day, he just quit. Of course, I did have to insult him first, to get him to quit.

But was he right? Was he right to try?

Actually, he may have been right.

He was right to try.

And neither of us insulted the other, all the way thru, until he wasn't getting the hint I was done.

In my view, that is a success story.

I still look at the verses he cited, and ones like them, ... and I turn it over and over in my mind. It has made me plan to do an in-depth word study and such. So, persistent attempts to persuade are worthwhile in theory.

Word study - that really can be a problem. It can also remove problems.

Mostly, though I see people using "word studies" to change the meaning of verses. Sometimes, I find that I get involved in word study only because I don't want to accept what scripture says.

On occasion, it is because someone tells me something that I did not realize, so my word study is done to show me how a verse can be saying something that I didn't initially see.

All that being said to say that our intention toward the study makes a lot of difference. Its a "heart thing."

Are we wanting illumination or are we wanting to justify a belief that we already decided is valid? A "word study" can be made to do either one. It depends on our honesty.

Usually, I start out with believing that many teams of translators did their work correctly to start with. That is why we should not depend on only one translation. People make mistakes.

[Eyelog]

Word study - that really can be a problem. It can also remove problems.

Mostly, though I see people using "word studies" to change the meaning of verses. Sometimes, I find that I get involved in word study only because I don't want to accept what scripture says.

On occasion, it is because someone tells me something that I did not realize, so my word study is done to show me how a verse can be saying something that I didn't initially see.

All that being said to say that our intention toward the study makes a lot of difference. Its a "heart thing."

Are we wanting illumination or are we wanting to justify a belief that we already decided is valid? A "word study" can be made to do either one. It depends on our honesty.

Usually, I start out with believing that many teams of translators did their work correctly to start with. That is why we should not depend on only one translation. People make mistakes.

I agree. Do we want truth and mutual edification or do we want to be right?

Incidentally, a few years ago I did a word study on heart (kardia), along with the other constituent factulties of the human, such as psuche, nous, dianoia, pneuma, etc.

One thing I found was the modern prejudice to translate Kardia as mind in at least 3 places in the NT. I see that as an unfounded no-no, ... a translational interpretation which reflects bias. I also found that belief is not associated with the mind at all. It is associated with the kardia. This is a deeply profound difference, unless one is collapsing kardia into nous/dianoia.

Anyway, like all techniques to get to the bottom of things, how you do it, why you do it, the skill with which you do it, and the discernment with which you do it determine the outcome. Yes?

[Boo]

I agree. Do we want truth and mutual edification or do we want to be right?

Incidentally, a few years ago I did a word study on heart (kardia), along with the other constituent factulties of the human, such as psuche, nous, dianoia, pneuma, etc.

One thing I found was the modern prejudice to translate Kardia as mind in at least 3 places in the NT. I see that as an unfounded no-no, ... a translational interpretation which reflects bias. I also found that belief is not associated with the mind at all. It is associated with the kardia. This is a deeply profound difference, unless one is collapsing kardia into nous/dianoia.

Anyway, like all techniques to get to the bottom of things, how you do it, why you do it, the skill with which you do it, and the discernment with which you do it determine the outcome. Yes?

Exactly!

God bless you, brother.

[joquiros]

Just spreed the good words on which the the holy bible says, arguing with other is not a proper way just spreed it an that is it. There nothing to argue about it for we all know that we are created equal by God and we are not his disciple that we have the right to argue.

[Boo]

Just spreed the good words on which the the holy bible says, arguing with other is not a proper way just spreed it an that is it. There nothing to argue about it for we all know that we are created equal by God and we are not his disciple that we have the right to argue.

Have the right to argue? We don't have the right to disagree? We are not to discuss God's words?

We don't come here necessarily to spred God's Word to the lost. The lost are on different forums, not necessarily here. The only lost ones who come here do so to start trouble with us. They are not looking for find God.