Praying to the Saints

[Slug1]

If all prayers must be given to God then how do the elders have possession of them in your scenario if not by giving them to the elders?
That is not twisting, that is logic.

If the end-times has not happened yet, then a Christian praying 1000 years ago concerning pleas for relief from persecution and this will not be answered till Jesus' return, it is logical that the prayers are yet to be answered. Once it is time, the imagery given to John was written as we read in the scripture you posted.

[Sojourner55]

This is one support among many. And if it is proven that Satan cannot read our thoughts then I will be surprised, but not persuaded in the least that saints and angels cannot hear our prayers. That Satan is the 'god of this world' is not my opinion, it is proven in scripture.
2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You seem unimpressed with Satan's power. If he has the power to blind men's minds from the incredible glory of the gospel, and to hold their minds captive; this is extraordinary power. Even to be able to perceive the dispositions of every man on earth, to know their weak points, to be able to hear everything they say and know their motivations. That is incredible power which if I were to say an angel had equivalence in power but for good you would accuse me of ascribing omnipotence to them.

Yes, Satan does have tremendous power--but only to the extent that God allows it. Satan's power over death and hell was crushed upon the resurrection of Jesus, and he now has no power over a child of God except as God allows him or her to be sifted. He's like a caged wild beast: he may roar and act scary, but he cannot harm us beyond this earthly temple we inhabit.

The passage you quote about Satan blinding the mind speaks of those to whom the Gospel is hid. And it is hid to them because they willfully turn away from the light and refuse to see. Those who are kept by the indwelling Spirit of God have no fear of Satan's power: "So humble yourselves before God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." Imagine that: stand strong in the power of Christ, and put up enough resistance, and the Devil will turn tail! Should we really be afraid of that?

Are you saying that Satan not only cannot read our mind, he cannot even hear our spoken words? If indeed you concede that Satan can hear the spoken words of every individual on earth, then I say that the archangel and the saints have equivalent power to hear the spoken words of every individual on earth.

I do not concede that. Sure Satan can hear us. But you greatly over-estimate him and all other created beings by assuming that they're capable of hearing and comprehending collective communications, the way God can--rather than recognizing that they are limited by a finite mind to hearing and understanding one person at a time, like we are.

Now we can have an argument about whether or not it is necessary to vocalise our prayers to the saints.

I'm not interested in arguing with you. And if you really want to believe saved people in heaven have the ability to hear unspoken prayers, that's up to you, my friend. However, you must cling to this belief without support of either Scripture or the written testimony of the early church fathers. (But then, such a lack of corroboration hasn't stopped you from believing all the other dogma you have blindly accepted, has it?)

To be able to influence our thinking is in itself an incredible power. It shows that he has access to our minds and can even plant thoughts in our minds. What makes you think that this is a lesser power than the power to read minds.

Even manipulative human beings can influence our thinking; thoughts can be subliminally planted in our minds, and a good hypnotist can make you think you're a chicken--all without supernatural power. Knowing our thoughts is an altogether different matter than planting thoughts.

I notice that you have not commented on the points I made that Satan can enter our hearts and take captivity of our minds. In cases of demon possession he is able to enter into a person and take over his will and make him do and say things that he does not want to, even causing the person to jump into a fire. He can even supplant the personality of the person and live his own personality in him.

What you are describing is the power of spirit beings to enter our bodies and usurp control of our minds. Yes, demonic possession is a powerful quality to be reckoned with--by the unsaved, not those sealed by the Holy Spirit. Yet, even in the extreme examples of such possession we see in the Scriptures, in which a demon takes complete control of a person, the thoughts of the person are not accessible to the Spirit. At least there is no evidence for that.

Our thoughts and silent prayers are like a radio transmissions: unseen and inaudible until a proper reception takes place. In our case, only God is spiritually equipped to receive what we're transmitting.

What you have written here is an example of mindless rhetoric.

Well....I'll give you the rhetoric, but I take exception to the charge of "mindless."

I have given you a scripture which you have chosen to ignore.

I haven't ignored it, I've simply rejected your interpretation of it. We will not agree, but that's fine. Our dialogue goes far beyond exchanging our respective views, or proving who is right or wrong. This thread will remain here indefinitely for others to evaluate, and make a determination as to what the Scriptures validate.

I have presented the Sacred Tradition which demonstrates 2000 years of Christians praying to the Saints. I have presented the authorities and rulings of the church. This is not speculation on my part, but a certainty learned from the divine authorities of the Divine Scripture and Sacred Tradition, with the highest earthly authority of the church.

Well....2000 years is stretching. I believe the late centuries in which such ideas arose and were ratified by the "holy see," represents the fact that they were not believed until at least four or five centuries after the time of the Apostles. (And there is a good reason for that).

So, I'll give you maybe 1500 years of tradition, depending on which dogma you're talking about. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception did not become dogma until 1854, and the Assumption wasn't made official until 1950. I'm not sure when praying to the saints came into vogue, but I do know that the early church fathers knew nothing about it. Why is that? Could it be perhaps because such a practice was not passed down from the Apostles? That's why your "sacred tradition" is weightless.

If we are to believe your version, we must conclude that the long ages of Christians which have preceded us were all necromancers. If that is the case then where was the church for all those years?

I don't know about being necromancers, but if they were not talking to the Lord, they were talking to empty air. Look, I'm not going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me. We're just laying out our cases, and letting the preponderance of evidence be examined by others.

One thing you cannot escape from is this: at any given moment, there are hundreds of millions of people praying in many different languages, all at the same time. In order for the saints in heaven to hear and understand them all, they would have to be endowed with some amazing supernatural powers--which is assuming facts not in evidence.

The fact is, the only individuals identified as saints in the texts you cited are the martyred saints under the altar--and they're petitioning God for themselves, not others. You are free to believe as you wish. But you need to learn that Scripture interprets Scripture, so you should stop isolating and bending a single passage to prove a doctrine.

[Boo]

Can we first get past the concept that Satan is omniscient, omnipresent, and all powerful?

Being "the god of this world" does not give him the power of God. His powers are of lies and deception and authority over demons. Should we not first come to some agreement over those ideas?

[excubitor]

Lets establish if we are to pray to angels at all... is that to difficult for you? I agree they return with the answers given by God.

Post the Jacobs ladder scriptures if they will support what you argue. Then we can be edified.

Are you telling me you don't know the story of Jacob's ladder?

[excubitor]

If the end-times has not happened yet, then a Christian praying 1000 years ago concerning pleas for relief from persecution and this will not be answered till Jesus' return, it is logical that the prayers are yet to be answered. Once it is time, the imagery given to John was written as we read in the scripture you posted.

It sounds like your home grown theology is growing with each post. Please provide the scripture which states that God does not answer pleas for relief from persecution for a thousand years or until Christ returns.

Do you think this innovative theology might suffice to start another protestant church upon. Each protestant denomination has it's own combination of ideas. You might be able to whip up a following for this.

[excubitor]

Can we first get past the concept that Satan is omniscient, omnipresent, and all powerful?

Being "the god of this world" does not give him the power of God. His powers are of lies and deception and authority over demons. Should we not first come to some agreement over those ideas?

I never at any time said that Satan was omniscient, omnipreset, or omnipotent. Please do not accuse me of saying something which I did not say.
I said that he was very knowing and very powerful and is able to influence the minds of all humanity with his lies and deception.

[Boo]

I never at any time said that Satan was omniscient, omnipreset, or omnipotent. Please do not accuse me of saying something which I did not say.
I said that he was very knowing and very powerful and is able to influence the minds of all humanity with his lies and deception.

My brother, I never said that you made claims. Since the referrences made came under question, I felt like we should establish what Satan is actually like. When we say Satan is "very powerful," that begs the question as to what powers he actually has.

[Slug1]

It sounds like your home grown theology is growing with each post. Please provide the scripture which states that God does not answer pleas for relief from persecution for a thousand years or until Christ returns.

Rev 5:8 for starters...

While I speak against the Roman Catholic doctrine throughout this thread and keep everything on that level... please stop reducing yourself to the level of personalizing your replies.

I have not home grown any theology and I have posted scripture to support all I have said or have replied with scripture when you request it (you have not). What you call "home grown" and later as " innovative theology" is on a personal level.

Also... much of the cross scriptural references I've posted and some of the understanding of these involved scriptures are straight from a Study Bible... I'm not home growing anything... so now that you know this, if you want to continue on a personal level, just let me know it's against that Study Bible and I won't be phased knowing this... OK?

Do you have a Bible that has scriptural cross references posted in it? If so, I'd check them all out since dividing scripture with scripture REALLY helps a person understand God's truth and it's easier to see when and how doctrine has bent and twisted scriptures.

You have not used any scriptures except what you have posted which is in the light of the Roman Catholic doctrinal teaching. So it has been out of context and proper meaning according to the Word of God. In other words... bent/twisted to fit that doctrine.

Should you continue to work from a level that shows you will attack character by calling something you don't agree with as "home grown" and "innovative theology"... you only prove that you are not going to discuss for edification.

So far, the only scripture you have posted is bent to the Roman Catholic teachings... scripture don't bend or twist. Doctrine does and then the scripture is out of context or used in error.

Am I clear enough concerning the fact you are taking this personal so it seems you react on a personal level and that this needs to STOP?

All the participants in this thread are illuminating how Roman Catholic doctrine is not aligned with scripture... don't take it personal. If you do, that only shows us all the hold that doctrine has OVER you.

[Slug1]

Are you telling me you don't know the story of Jacob's ladder?

NO... I'm asking you that if it will help your argument, then to post the scripture.

Are you telling me that the scripture doesn't by not posting the verses? If the scriptures support that angels are prayed to and they go UP the ladder with them, then please, post the scriptures.

If the scriptures don't help you... then why raise an issue about Jacobs Ladder?

Jacob prayed to God after the vision.

[excubitor]

NO... I'm asking you that if it will help your argument, then to post the scripture.

Are you telling me that the scripture doesn't by not posting the verses? If the scriptures support that angels are prayed to and they go UP the ladder with them, then please, post the scriptures.

If the scriptures don't help you... then why raise an issue about Jacobs Ladder?

Jacob prayed to God after the vision.

You stated that Satan could hear our words when we prayed vocally because he is "in the world" and said that angels could not hear our vocal prayers because they were NOT "in the world. I then pointed out that angels as messengers of God are also "in the world" as is evidenced by repeated examples in the scripture of angels talking to men and also the story of Jacob who had a vision of a golden ladder with angels ascending and descending the golden ladder. So clearly angels are "in the world" as much as the devils with the exception that the angels may ascend and descend to and from heaven at will. Therefore if Satan can hear our spoken prayers then so can angels. It's kind of sad that I have to spell this all out. I am just highlighting the many crashing inconsistencies and illogicalities in your various theories.

[Slug1]

You stated that Satan could hear our words when we prayed vocally because he is "in the world" and said that angels could not hear our vocal prayers because they were NOT "in the world. I then pointed out that angels as messengers of God are also "in the world" as is evidenced by repeated examples in the scripture of angels talking to men and also the story of Jacob who had a vision of a golden ladder with angels ascending and descending the golden ladder. So clearly angels are "in the world" as much as the devils with the exception that the angels may ascend and descend to and from heaven at will. Therefore if Satan can hear our spoken prayers then so can angels. It's kind of sad that I have to spell this all out. I am just highlighting the many crashing inconsistencies and illogicalities in your various theories.

OK... but prayers are to GOD... even when angels, satan, demons, people (who are alive), etc... are listening. I thought you previously stated what you did in support of praying to angels. I can go back to check but I'm not.

So, you are clear on what you intended and I agree that angels can hear "verbally" spoken prayers.

Since your "OP" is about praying to angels and people who have died and are possibly in heaven... let's see the scriptures to support: That we ARE to pray to angels and/or people who have previously died AND, that if NOT prayed verbally, that angels and people who have died and are possibly in heaven, can hear our thoughts.

Is praying... worship, offered up to God?

You have asked me this before. It seems to me that you are not reading my posts.

You stated this in a previous post, so if this question was "directly" answered, I have missed your Yes or No answer, can you please list the Post # so I can go back to read your answer, thanks:

[excubitor]

OK... but prayers are to GOD... even when angels, satan, demons, people (who are alive), etc... are listening. I thought you previously stated what you did in support of praying to angels. I can go back to check but I'm not.

So, you are clear on what you intended and I agree that angels can hear "verbally" spoken prayers.

So the power for Satan to hear all the spoken prayers of all mankind. Is that not omniscient? If I wanted to attack the notion that Satan could hear all our spoken prayers then that is the argument (however flawed) that I would be resorting to use. In the same way, it is a flawed argument when applied to angels and saints. Please show the scripture which teaches that to be able to hear all spoken prayers of all men on earth is not omniscience, whereas to hear all the thoughts of all men on earth is omniscience. On what grounds has this conclusion been drawn? To say that an angel or saint is not omniscient as I have done is to concede that there are things which they do not know. I have already conceded that they do not know the deep things of our heart and soul, that only God knows. It is also possible that God grants them specific power to hear prayers but not other thoughts. Perhaps they can only hear prayers directed to them personally but not to other saints or angels or God. I don't believe that personally but it would be an acceptable interpretation if it allows you to believe what is known from the scripture and from the church, that angels and saints are not omniscient but that they can hear our prayers.

Since your "OP" is about praying to angels and people who have died and are possibly in heaven... let's see the scriptures to support: That we ARE to pray to angels and/or people who have previously died AND, that if NOT prayed verbally, that angels and people who have died and are possibly in heaven, can hear our thoughts.

I have already provided the scriptures in Revelation 5 & 8 which you have rejected. I can do no more than that. We know that these elders must have previously died in that they lived on earth, their bodies died, and their eternal souls were taken into heaven where they are now with God. Paul himself said that he looked forward to passing from this earth so that he could be with the Lord. These elders are in heaven to hear our prayers and present them to God at his throne. If anyone is weak in belief and believe that angels and saints lack the power to hear thought prayers, but do have the power to hear verbal prayers then by all means pray to the saints verbally. The only reason I brought up the spoken/unspoken prayer issue was to reason with you about your incorrect claim that the ability to hear our prayers of all men on earth is an omniscient power that belongs to God alone. Now that you have conceded that Satan can hear our spoken prayers it follows that angels and saints can also hear our spoken prayers. So you should have no risk of ascribing onmiscience to the angels and saints provided you pray verbally.

Is praying... worship, offered up to God?
You stated this in a previous post, so if this question was "directly" answered, I have missed your Yes or No answer, can you please list the Post # so I can go back to read your answer, thanks:

The question was answered in this post. http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...61#post2871261

[Slug1]

The question was answered in this post. http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...61#post2871261 In that post I lamented that you did not properly read the OP. Now it is apparent that you have not properly read the answer to my question. If you are going to take the time to respond to my posts, at least take the time to read and understand them.

Oh yeah, I did properly read... check this out:

I have to say that this very important question in that it questions your grasp of simple explanations.

No wonder I put that answer aside and it faded so quickly... you got personal and accused me of possibly not having a grasp of simple explanations.

I'll tell you what, I'll just go on only praying to God and you can continue praying to whoever has died and whatever you want.

It's not right to pray to those who have died or are angels but since the RC doctrine says it's OK and you show yourself as a person who follows the Roman Catholic doctrine... then all I can say is I pray that someday you will be free of that doctrine.

[excubitor]

Oh yeah, I did properly read... check this out:



No wonder I put that answer aside and it faded so quickly... you got personal and accused me of possibly not having a grasp of simple explanations.

Sorry. I have a tendancy to get snippy on these forums. I am working on it and often delete my words of frustration after I type them.

I'll tell you what, I'll just go on only praying to God and you can continue praying to whoever has died and whatever you want.

It's not right to pray to those who have died or are angels but since the RC doctrine says it's OK and you show yourself as a person who follows the Roman Catholic doctrine... then all I can say is I pray that someday you will be free of that doctrine.

If you go back in history you will find that the reformers broke with Rome on a variety of issues, none of which were praying to the Saints. It is only after they have broken with Rome that they started to work on developing differentials to justify their schism. Usually the reformers trawl through the history books and find tired old points of contention raised by John Hus or Nestorius which they wheeled out again. There is nothing new under the sun. This debate about praying to the saints has been going on at least since 400 AD. We know that it was an established practice in the church that far back because we find Jerome defending the practice against another heretic Vigilantius who apart from rejecting the veneration of relics and the prayers to saints also taught that the mountain in Dan 2:45 was the devil, that Christ was the stone being cut out of the devil and his fallen Adam.

"For you say that the souls of Apostles and martyrs have their abode either in the bosom of Abraham, or in the place of refreshment, or under the altar of God, and that they cannot leave their own tombs, and be present there they will…And while the devil and the demons wander through the whole world, and with only too great speed present themselves everywhere; are martyrs, after the shedding of their blood, to be kept out of sight shut up in a coffin, from whence they cannot escape? You say, in your pamphlet, that so long as we are alive we can pray for one another; but once we die, the prayer of no person for another can be heard, and all the more because the martyrs, though they cry for the avenging of their blood, have never been able to obtain their request. If Apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, when they ought still to be anxious for themselves, how much more must they do so when once they have won their crowns, overcome, and triumphed? A single man, Moses, oft wins pardon from God for six hundred thousand armed men; and Stephen, the follower of his Lord and the first Christian martyr, entreats pardon for his persecutors; and when once they have entered on their life with Christ, shall they have less power than before? The Apostle Paul says that two hundred and seventy-six souls were given to him in the ship; and when, after his dissolution, he has begun to be with Christ, must he shut his mouth, and be unable to say a word for those who throughout the whole world have believed in his Gospel? Shall Vigilantius the live dog be better than Paul the dead lion? I should be right in saying so after Ecclesiastes, if I admitted that Paul is dead in spirit. The truth is that the saints are not called dead, but are said to be asleep. Wherefore Lazarus, who was about to rise again, is said to have slept. And the Apostle forbids the Thessalonians to be sorry for those who were asleep.” Jerome, Against Vigilantius, 6 (A.D. 406).
Perhaps Jerome has explained it better than I can.

[Quickened]

Christ is our High Priest. Reading Hebrews should really settle this issue. What was the role of a High Priest? How did that office function in the Old Testament? What has changed in our day and age?

Christ is our Advocate, our savior, our high priest by His power he upholds the world. That is why we pray to Christ alone. By praying to anyone else you rob Christ of this office. Christ isn't sufficient for you. You don't trust his will or his answers when you should bring it to the foot of the cross.