Reconciling Paul vs Jesus

[NewDayRising]

Athanasius,

Luke 22:66-71 involved nothing of Jesus claiming to be God nor even the Son of God. If I claim to be the Son of my Father, am I claiming to actually be my Father? His reponse was "You say that I am." How does that constitute the claim itself? That answer is a deflection. Its also before Pilate and the Romans, who could have cared less about the input of the Jews in such a matter. If the Romans were to determine Jesus was a political threat to them, they would have him crucified regardless of what the Jews thought. And to use the gospel of John to confirm this, which is so overtly anti-semitic and radically different from the 3 synoptic gospels, is quite insulting. It is obviously heavily influenced by Pauline Christianity, rather than the actual teachings of Jesus found in Mark, Luke, and Matthew.

Also, what other Pharisees are you talking about? What records are there to back such a statement? The only records and evidence you have come from the Pauline influenced gospels, and well as the Pauline influenced book of Acts, which are as subjective and biased as can be possibly imagined. Of course, there are no Jewish kept records of Jesus after his crucifixion, because he was in fact not the Messiah, so what point would there be in documenting it. If he were, there would not have been some 35 odd Jewish claimants to that role after his death. Considering some of the following prophecies which were to be fulfilled by the Jewish Messiah, which Jesus believed in wholeheartedly, but most certaily have not been fulfilled, and no rational person could expect to be considering the world we live in:

- There will be no more hunger and illness, and death will cease
- All of the dead will rise again, which is to take place 40 years after the arrival of the Messiah
- The people of the world will turn to Jews for spiritual guidance
- Weapons of war will be destroyed
- Rebuilding the Jewish temple in Jerusalem
- World Peace
- Perfecting the entire world to serve God together


This is just a small snippet, but if you people believe Jesus to be divine and all knowing (God), and he believed himself to be the Jewish Messiah that would fulfill these prophecies, which never happened, how can you still claim him to be divine and all knowing (God)?

Additionally, why would the Pharisees want to kill Jesus? He claimed to be the Messiah, and according to the Jewish prophecy of what they Messiah would fulfill, the Pharisees would have allowed such a claim to take hold, and in fact, would have welcomed it to a certain degree. Consider Acts 5:38-39, in which the Pharisee Gamaliel states:

"Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”

Of course this was said about the Apostles of Jesus, but considering the logic, would it be unreasonable to believe this would be a similar sentiment shared by the Pharisees of Jesus during the time he was alive? Why would they be so anxious to kill a man who believed himself to the Messiah which would set them free? Again, the reasons we have been provided to believe so come from Paul and his Christian followers, which is a much different sect in creed than that of Jesus and his Jewish followers. The idea of death as a means to forgive the world for its sins originated from Paul, one which was most likely born of his own realization the laws of the Torah were practically impossible to live up to, and therefore, the whole world was destined for damnation unless a scapegoat could be provided. Yes, thats speculation on my part, but not an unreasonable conclusion to draw when the formation of Christianity is examined objectively. It would be easier for me to roll over and accept Paul was telling the truth, and that he somehow understood the message and purposes of Jesus even better than the direct followers of Jesus did, despite never having met him except through his own personal visions. But I have this crazy thing I do.....its called "thinking."

[NewDayRising]

Other questions:

If Paul was a pharisee, as he claimed to be, why did he purchase Roman citizenship for himself? A true pharisee would have despised the Romans, and welcomed the return of the Jewish Messiah to overthrow them.

How is it that this book of Acts is so inconsistent within itself that it describes Paul as violently opposed to Christianity because of his deep attachment to Pharisaism, and yet also describes the Pharisees as being friendly towards the early Christians, standing up for them and saving their lives?

And to answer the question of anyone else who may ask why I am not a Christian and posting here....this is the Christians Answer forum for atheists/agnostics/non believers to ask questions for Christians to answer, is it not? Based on that description, I hardly feel I am out of line for doing so.

[BrianW]

Brian W

That would be exactly the case. If it can be shown Paul was a deceiver and not personally called by God to be an apostle, then the whole basis of Christianity would come tumbling down, now wouldnt it? I have no doubts he was sincere in his teachings, though I rightfully have numerous doubts about the truth and validity of his claims. If his gospel is the truth, why is it so easy to poke holes in? Something of that nature doesnt sound like divine planning; sounds like human planning. Also, I dont believe the claims of Jesus to be true either; he wasn't the messiah as he claimed, that much is obvious. This is just an outlet for me, growing up a non Christian in a country dominated by Christians, and quite frankly, my patience wears very thin with people who claim heaven and eternal paradise for their own religious belief, and hell for every one else who does not.

I haven't seen any holes whatsoever in the scripture before now and you certainly haven't shown any here in this thread despite what you may claim.

Just so you know, Christians Answer is a board on this forum that sincere seekers of the faith and Jesus can use to ask questions. The purpose you are trying to use it for is far, far from it's intended purpose.

[Diggindeeper]

The original poster is no longer with us so we are now closing this thread.
Enough has been said that people can make up their own mind as to TRUTH.