2 Thessalonians 2

[glad4mercy]

Questions for discussion.

1. Who is the man of sin?

2. What is the mystery of iniquity/lawlessness?

3. How was it working even in Paul's day?

4. Who is the one who restrains?

5. How will He be taken out of the way?

6. In what way does the removal of the one who restrains usher in the revealing of the Lawless one?

[DurbanDude]

Questions for discussion.

1. Who is the man of sin?
The antichrist. A future leader of the Middle East region who will also declare himself God over earth.

2. What is the mystery of iniquity/lawlessness?
Evil attempts by governments to stamp out Christianity or take over Christianity as a political tool. Evil secretive international co-operation.

3. How was it working even in Paul's day?
Plots by the Jewish leaders against Christians. Plots by the Romans against Christians.

4. Who is the one who restrains?
Satan is the one who hinders the gospel. He is the one who causes this hindering of the gospel and who causes this secretive lawlessness.

5. How will He be taken out of the way?
Through our testimony, Satan is cast out of heaven (Rev 12). Through preaching to all nations the end will come. We are to speed the end. Satan hinders the end.
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony

6. In what way does the removal of the one who restrains usher in the revealing of the Lawless one?
Satan is thrown out of heaven, he is full of wrath because his time is short. He therefore manifests his power and control immediately upon being thrown to earth, using the antichrist. The secretiveness is no longer needed, that secret anti-Christian government co-operation is exposed as the antichrist declares himself God of earth and slaughters Christians openly.

12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

[Adstars]

Questions for discussion.

1. Who is the man of sin?

The Anti-christ also called the lawless one.

2. What is the mystery of iniquity/lawlessness?

The deception that leads people to forsake God and follow another thinking that he is God. Another jesus if you like. a counterfeit christ.

3. How was it working even in Paul's day?

There where false preachers in Paul's day going out laying down deception to establish doctrines that would lead people away from the truth, You first have to undermine the truth before you can start to replace it with another.

4. Who is the one who restrains?

Don't know. Could be Gabriel.

5. How will He be taken out of the way?

I guess God will order Him out of the way.

6. In what way does the removal of the one who restrains usher in the revealing of the Lawless one?

Well if we look at the way satan worked upon Job we see a shadow of the way God allows satan to work on the world. But with restrictions. When the one who restrains is removed satan will be able to use all the power at his disposal to deceive the world.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[episkopos]

Questions for discussion.

1. Who is the man of sin?

2. What is the mystery of iniquity/lawlessness?

3. How was it working even in Paul's day?

4. Who is the one who restrains?

5. How will He be taken out of the way?

6. In what way does the removal of the one who restrains usher in the revealing of the Lawless one?

Jesus Barabbas is the lawless one. Also Azazel (scape goat). All who follow a general amnesty for sin in exchange for a vote of confidence are believers of the great lie.

Was not Jesus Barabbas let off the hook? Was not the true Messiah sacrificed for the truth? Which one are we following? Will we be sacrificed for the sake of the truth? Or will we accept a plan that absolves us of responsibility?

We are not saved in order to sin...but rather away from sin. The mystery of lawlessness is the false promotion of something known as "the gospel of grace"...whereby grace means that we have immunity from responsibility for our own actions.

We need to obey the gospel of Christ whereby we die in Him so as to be raised to newness of life in Him...as a new creation. Adding salvation to our present lives and claiming to be justified through our beliefs is the antithesis of the true gospel which is according to actual power from heaven in the form of grace.

Jesus has promised to reject these workers of iniquity in spite of all the seeming good ministries they have created in His name. Creating ministries as men create businesses in order to traffic for profits is not of God.

[John146]

Questions for discussion.

1. Who is the man of sin?

Notice how "the man of sin" is also referred to as "that wicked":

2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

I believe it is referring to the same as "that wicked person" that Paul referred to here:

1 Cor 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

I don't believe "the man of sin" refers to an individual man but rather refers generally to wicked people such as "the fornicators of this world, ...the covetous, or extortioners, or... idolaters".

2. What is the mystery of iniquity/lawlessness?

I think it refers to the secret schemes of the wicked. Already in Paul's day wicked people were infiltrating churches and leading people astray.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

3. How was it working even in Paul's day?

See the passage above. Also, I see this as being similar to what John wrote about here:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Just as Paul spoke of a future time when the man of sin would be revealed, John spoke of a time when the spirit of antichrist would come, but he indicated that it was already in the world because there were already many antichrists at that time. So, while Paul indicated that the man of sin would be revealed in the future it was still true that the mystery of iniquity was already at work in his day. It was already at work because the spirit of antichrist had already come. So, it seems that Paul was referring to a time when things would get even worse even though they were already bad at that time. He mentioned that there would be a future falling away (2 Thess 2:3) and it seems that would occur once the restraint of iniquity was taken away.

4. Who is the one who restrains?

God restrains wickedness. Or, more specifically, the Holy Spirit.

5. How will He be taken out of the way?

I don't believe the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the world but I believe God will stop contending with man and let man do as he pleases without restraint at some point.

6. In what way does the removal of the one who restrains usher in the revealing of the Lawless one?

Once restraint is removed then a person's true colors will show, revealing who they really are. That's what I believe 2 Thess 2 is about. The man of sin represents all of the wicked who "received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved" (2 Thess 2:10) and "who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thess 2:12).

[glad4mercy]

Excellent and thought provoking replies from all. Thank you for your answers. There are a few perspectives spoken here that I had not thought about before.

[DurbanDude]

Just an added thought. It is often assumed that the one who holds back evil has to be a good entity, because why would evil hold back evil? But if we look at the actual words, we see that this entity is called the "restrainer", yet he doesn't hold back evil, he holds onto secret evil. Therefore its possible that he is an evil entity (Satan), one who restrains goodness and holds onto evil secretiveness until his exposure is forced.

2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (the restrainer is associated with a "revealing")
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (the restrainer allows secret evil to continue, until he is removed)
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (the removal of the restrainer is associated with the revealing)

[dancedwithdolphin]

Did you also notice this: And now ye know what withholdeth...

Apparently they knew what was holding back. (Sometimes I wish Paul would just up and say, be plain).

[divaD]

Did you also notice this: And now ye know what withholdeth...

Apparently they knew what was holding back. (Sometimes I wish Paul would just up and say, be plain).

He was being plain, wasn't he? Isn't it logical that what he was just talking about prior to that, that that was what he was referring to? The answer would have to be in verse 3 and 4 I would think, and would be why verse 1 hasn't occurred as of yet.

Here's what I'm thinking then.

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth(verse 3 and 4) that he(verse 1) might be revealed in his time.

[BroRog]

Questions for discussion.

1. Who is the man of sin?

I believe the genitive "man of lawlessness" is descriptive of the man himself such that he will be famous and celebrated for his lawlessness because above all else he is the most lawless among men during a time of lawlessness.

2. What is the mystery of iniquity/lawlessness?

Paul describes the age of lawlessness as a mystery because during that time this condition of the human experience will be very strange and/or difficult to explain. Such lawlessness will remain inexplicable in terms of a rational, reasonable, wise course of action. A mysterious lawlessness is a lawlessness without any discernible reason or logical basis. This kind of lawlessness will thrive during a time when the population will be under the darkness of skepticism and doubt of an objective truth.

Why is it called "lawlessness"? Literally, lawlessness is "the state of being without law." In practical terms, lawlessness is the mental state involving a set of beliefs and values, which concerns self-interest at the expense of moral principles. At its worst, lawlessness stands in contradistinction to love, which is why Jesus says that when lawlessness is increased, love will grow cold. The lawless tend to have concern for one's own welfare and interests before those of others.

The man of lawlessness will appear to be anthropocentric but in fact, he will be entirely selfish, deciding for himself what is good and what is evil but solely and wholly relativistic to the point that whatever pleases him at the moment is good and whatever displeases him is evil. He will place himself above every so-called god or object of worship, practicing an extreme form of egoism. This man will be the one man in all of history who will stand as the head of all those who have believed Satan's lie, "You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

3. How was it working even in Paul's day?

We work for the cause of lawlessness if we put man's interests above Gods as Peter once did.

22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid [it], Lord! This shall never happen to You." 23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests , but man's."

Jesus called Peter "Satan" because like Satan, Peter tempted Jesus to take his role as King without first going to the cross. Had Jesus done this, he would be putting his own interests ahead of God's interests, which is a form of lawlessness.

Lawlessness was present in Paul's day, which is why Paul often exhorted his readers to place each other above themselves. And Paul, looking back to the cross, encourages his readers to follow the example of Jesus Christ who humbled himself and put the interests of others ahead of his own.

. . . do not merely look out for your own personal interests , but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus who . . .humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

4. Who is the one who restrains?

Before we ask "who", we need to discover "what" is being restrained. The man of lawlessness is the obvious answer from the text, just as it is written, "and you know what restrains him now." However, the picture is a little more complex because Paul paints the scene in which a man arises during a time of apostasy, lawlessness (love grown cold), deception, mystery, skepticism, doubt, darkness, tricks, false signs and the like. The man of lawlessness can't come until the scene is set and all the conditions are ripe for the coming of this man.

So then, in order to keep that from happening -- in order to keep the man of lawlessness from working among the people -- he who restrains will prevent deception, skepticism, doubt, and darkness from having a free reign. The man of lawlessness will finally come when such an influence has been removed so that inexplicable wickedness and lack of love will be normal among us, which will pave the way for some man who will be able to trick people will false signs and powers of darkness on a massive scale. When truth is gone and love is cold, this will be the milieu into which the deceiver will have his say and those who do not love the truth will believe him.

In my view, the Holy Spirit is the restraint the world has against falsehood, darkness, skepticism, suspicion, ignorance, delusion, superstition, and hate. Jesus says that he will send the Holy Spirit as the "Spirit of truth" in order to convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment.

5. How will He be taken out of the way?

The Holy Spirit will do very little to convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment, mainly because people are no longer hearing and accepting the truth, and God will pour out on them a spirit of stupor. It's not that the Holy Spirit himself is taken out of the way; it's the fact that people are no longer hearing and listening to him, the prophets or the apostles. At that time, skepticism will have taken hold to such a great degree, the world will live under the cloud of doubt that anything can be known for sure. Nothing is true; or truth doesn't exist.

6. In what way does the removal of the one who restrains usher in the revealing of the Lawless one?

Someone wise once said that we get the leaders we deserve. As such, Satan will offer the world a leader that epitomizes the mysterious, illogical, irrational lawlessness and selfishness of that age. The man of lawlessness will rise to be the perfect example and typify all that mankind has become.

[dancedwithdolphin]

All I get from it is that this person wont be revealed until it is his time. I am unclear on what is keeping him from being revealed. I understand the rest of the verse, it is talking about Jesus' return when he destroys this person and then you have Jesus ruling for 1000 yrs.

So is it that God sends a strong desception (which then would be just after all those in Jerusalem flee, not going back for coat so on and so forth). Is this what is meant? So in essence, God is removing the truth from among them. Leaving them only with the lie.

[glad4mercy]

All I get from it is that this person wont be revealed until it is his time.

Yes at the time that God appoints the man of sin will be revealed and at the time that God appoints the man of sin will meet his doom.

I am unclear on what is keeping him from being revealed

That is understandable, since the text doesnt tell us who the withholder is. As you can see, there are a variety of opinions. Paul and his original recipients knew who the withholder was though.

I understand the rest of the verse, it is talking about Jesus' return when he destroys this person and then you have Jesus ruling for 1000 yrs.

I agree. Followed by one final rebellion that will lead to the New Heavens and the New Earth and the age of eternity.

So is it that God sends a strong desception (which then would be just after all those in Jerusalem flee, not going back for coat so on and so forth).

The passage that you speak of is in the context of the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not to stand, that is the Holy Place. Some think that this prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70, some think that it has a dual fulfillment, ( and also a type, Antiochus Epiphanes, who had already risen and fallen when Jesus spoke these words). The dual fullfillment would be the events of AD 70 first and then in the last days man of sin as well.

So in essence, God is removing the truth from among them. Leaving them only with the lie.

Yes, they rejected the truth, so God turns them over to believe a lie. "My Spirit will not always strive with man" Wnen people continually and persistently reject the truth, God leaves them to their own self deception which leads to destruction. He who remains stiffnecked after many rebukes will be destroyed without remedy. ( Proverbs 29:1.) One thing is certain, God has been wondrously longsuffering with us and with the earth.

[glad4mercy]

Just an added thought. It is often assumed that the one who holds back evil has to be a good entity, because why would evil hold back evil? But if we look at the actual words, we see that this entity is called the "restrainer", yet he doesn't hold back evil, he holds onto secret evil. Therefore its possible that he is an evil entity (Satan), one who restrains goodness and holds onto evil secretiveness until his exposure is forced.

2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (the restrainer is associated with a "revealing")
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (the restrainer allows secret evil to continue, until he is removed)
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (the removal of the restrainer is associated with the revealing)

This is an interesting thought. Your comments caused me to go to my interlinear, and I realized that the verb translated "let" can be translated hold back or restrain, but it can also be translated hold fast or possess, which if taken at least one way can support your conclusion, ( although I think that "hold fast" could be referring to a restraining as well.)

The second interesting thing is that the phrase 'until he is taken out of the way" ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται, can be translated until taken out of the midst or even middle. When I consider the latter concept, I get the idea that the witholder stands in between the mystery of lawlessness ( holding it back) and something else , and that the witholder will eventually be removed allowing the mystery of Lawlessness to be revealed. The former concept would mean that the witholder is "in the midst", and his removal would lead to the mystery of lawlessness being revealed.

Therefore, my follow up question to you would be would the removal of satan lead to the revealing of the mystery? Secondly, the withholder will be removed from the midst of what? Or if we interpret mesos as "middle, what is the mystery being held back from?

[glad4mercy]

He was being plain, wasn't he? Isn't it logical that what he was just talking about prior to that, that that was what he was referring to? The answer would have to be in verse 3 and 4 I would think, and would be why verse 1 hasn't occurred as of yet.

Here's what I'm thinking then.

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth(verse 3 and 4) that he(verse 1) might be revealed in his time.

This is an interesting view. Yet it is the Lawless one seems to be the one who is revealed when the withholder is taken out of the way. Consider the emphasized part of the passage below...

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

[DurbanDude]

Therefore, my follow up question to you would be would the removal of satan lead to the revealing of the mystery? Secondly, the withholder will be removed from the midst of what? Or if we interpret mesos as "middle, what is the mystery being held back from?

Yes the removal of Satan causes the revealing. He has been secretive whilst keeping his place of accusation in heaven (Rev 12), yet once he has been overcome by the gospel/testimony reaching all nations, he no longer needs to withhold the gospel or continue in secretive attacks of the gospel. He now comes out into the open. That secret lawlessness (Illuminati/Jesuit/Roman/Jewish plots against the Christ) and the spirit of antichrist that have been around for 2000 years become exposed to us Christians at that moment. The revealing of the abomination, the revealing of a man calling himself "god" on God's own holy Mount is the great sign that ushers in the last 3.5 years of tribulation. Thus the abomination period is the same as Satan's wrath period of Rev 12, being three and a half years of persecution of the saints leading up to the second coming.

The withholder is in heaven between the saints and the victory of the gospel.
12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The mystery is being held back from being revealed (the secretive spirit of antichrist manifests openly in the antichrist)
Up until know even us Christians are clueless over where the evil is most manifested on earth. Is the USA a good force in the fight against antichrist Islam? Is the USA an antichrist force being used for its military prowess to dominate earth on behalf of the coming antichrist? Are there a group of European bankers dominating the West for their own secretive agenda? Do these bankers have ties with the Catholic Jesuits and the Jewish Zionists, all working together towards a single one-world goal. Is Islam part of their agenda or opposed to their agenda? Are wealthy individuals like the Queen of England and the Rothschild families part of the plot or not? How does Russia, Turkey or Gog or Israel fit in?

Its all too mysterious and secretive for us to know all the answers, the bible just tells us that the revealing will be obvious (2 Thess 2, Matthew 24, Rev 13) , then we will know our enemy. Until then our focus is to preach the gospel.