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Thread: 2 Thessalonians 2

  1. #16
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes the removal of Satan causes the revealing. He has been secretive whilst keeping his place of accusation in heaven (Rev 12), yet once he has been overcome by the gospel/testimony reaching all nations, he no longer needs to withhold the gospel or continue in secretive attacks of the gospel. He now comes out into the open. That secret lawlessness (Illuminati/Jesuit/Roman/Jewish plots against the Christ) and the spirit of antichrist that have been around for 2000 years become exposed to us Christians at that moment. The revealing of the abomination, the revealing of a man calling himself "god" on God's own holy Mount is the great sign that ushers in the last 3.5 years of tribulation. Thus the abomination period is the same as Satan's wrath period of Rev 12, being three and a half years of persecution of the saints leading up to the second coming.

    The withholder is in heaven between the saints and the victory of the gospel.
    12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


    The mystery is being held back from being revealed (the secretive spirit of antichrist manifests openly in the antichrist)
    Up until know even us Christians are clueless over where the evil is most manifested on earth. Is the USA a good force in the fight against antichrist Islam? Is the USA an antichrist force being used for its military prowess to dominate earth on behalf of the coming antichrist? Are there a group of European bankers dominating the West for their own secretive agenda? Do these bankers have ties with the Catholic Jesuits and the Jewish Zionists, all working together towards a single one-world goal. Is Islam part of their agenda or opposed to their agenda? Are wealthy individuals like the Queen of England and the Rothschild families part of the plot or not? How does Russia, Turkey or Gog or Israel fit in?

    Its all too mysterious and secretive for us to know all the answers, the bible just tells us that the revealing will be obvious (2 Thess 2, Matthew 24, Rev 13) , then we will know our enemy. Until then our focus is to preach the gospel.
    Thank you for the great explanation of your position DD. I understand what you are saying now. I was only thinking in terms of the withholder being removed from the earth, the concept of him being removed, ( cast out of) heaven had not occurred to me. So you believe that casting of satan out from heaven is yet future.

    Thank you for clarifying your position on this. Your view on the identity of the withholder is a view that I had not heard before, but it is a possibility that I will consider as I continue to study the Word.
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

  2. #17
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Hi glad4mercy;

    I’d like to throw in my four or five cents here. It took me a while to come up with this and I think I burned up a few brains cells in the process. I hope you would be willing to lend me a few of yours sometime.

    Who is the man of sin?
    The mouth (i.e. the Antichrist, the beast)

    Who is the one who restrains?
    I think a clue to this is found in verse 6 where Paul says that “in his time he will be revealed.” [Interesting side note that Paul claims that the one being revealed is a “he.”] In Acts the disciples asked Jesus a question about when He was going to restore the kingdom. Jesus said,
    Act 1:7 … "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;”

    There are obviously set times for certain things to take place according to the Father’s authority and plan.
    The father determines not only the boundary of the nations but also the duration of their existence as well.
    Act 17:26 “and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,”

    Even the arrival of Jesus was set according to the timetable the Father had set.
    Gal 4:4-5 “But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.”

    There are a couple of interesting verses in Revelation that also seems to go along with this.
    Rev 1:1 “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,”
    Rev 4:1 “After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”

    In both verses the important word is “must”. It is the word dei (G1163) meaning “necessary" or “required”. There are things that the Father requires to take place and at certain specific times. One of those things being the man of sin revealed in his proper time (2:6). I think that what restrains him is simply God’s timing, God’s plan. When those thing he has ordained to take place prior to the man of sin being revealed are completed (i.e. in a sense removed from the list of items which must take place) he will then be allowed to come into the open.

    I know that in verse 7 what is removed is referred to as “he” yet the words translated for he in this verse are not the same as is used in verse 6 when referring to the man of sin. The word is verse seven can also be “the”, “it” or many other words used to reference inanimate objects. Why it is translated “he” I don’t know. Perhaps someone with greater knowledge of the Greek language could shed some light on this.

    How will He be taken out of the way?
    (See above)

    In what way does the removal of the one who restrains usher in the revealing of the Lawless one?
    (See above) When all those things the Father has determined by His own authority which need, must, are required or are necessary to take place are accomplished then the man of sin will be given the green light to proceed (“in his time he will be reveal” vs 6). He will proceed by an all out effort to deceive the world (vs 9 & 10) and if possible even the saints.

    What is the mystery of iniquity/lawlessness?
    How was it working even in Paul's day?
    The Greek word for mystery does not refer to a secrete knowledge or the knowledge of a secrete sin. It is not a knowledge that is unknowable but rather knowledge that is restricted to a certain group of people. This knowledge is knowable only by those who are part of that group. It’s like a secrete society with knowledge that only those in that society has access to. Now whether that knowledge in this case is intellectual or experiential is something else. Here I believe the mystery is experiential knowledge; known (experienced) by those who are participating in lawlessness. The knowledge they are experiencing IMO is deception. You can see this in rest of the passage: false wonders (vs 9), deception of wickedness (vs 10), did not receive the love of the truth (vs 10), deluding influence (vs 11), believe what is false (vs 11) and did not believe the truth (vs 12). All those who practice lawlessness are in fact deceived. Interestingly though is the fact that the deceived do not believe that they are deceived.

    It was manifested and working in Paul’s day because those he was writing to were being: quickly shaken (vs2) and disturbed (vs 2) because of someone trying to deceive them (vs 3). The believers were not part of this “secret society knowledge” because they were steadfast in the truth (vs 13) and were not practicing lawlessness. Paul was at that time delivering to them truth in order to keep them from participating in the deception shared by those who practice lawlessness.
    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

    "Nobody knows what we're for, only what we're against, when we judge the wounded"
    "Jesus, friend of sinners, open our eyes to the world at the end of our pointing fingers."
    "Jesus friend of sinner" Casting Crowns

    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

  3. #18
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by glad4mercy View Post
    I was only thinking in terms of the withholder being removed from the earth, the concept of him being removed, ( cast out of) heaven had not occurred to me. So you believe that casting of satan out from heaven is yet future. .
    Yes, I believe the casting out is future. A careful reading of Rev 12 shows this, because the child is snatched up (2000 years ago) then Satan accuses. Its only AFTER the saints have been faithful with their testimony and martyrdom that Satan is cast out of heaven, so the period of faithfulness/martyrdom is obviously the church age.

    Rev 12:
    v4 refers to the first fall of Satan, from being one with God to falling out of grace down into the heavenly realms of earth.
    v5 THEN we have the birth and resurrection of Jesus
    v6 The woman (Israel) flees (dispersion- 70AD), then finds a safe place in the wilderness (in Israel), where Israel is to be kept safe for 3.5 years (not yet occurring)
    v7-12 The church overcomes Satan through our testimony who then falls AGAIN, but this time falling down from the heavenly realms, onto the actual earth.

    When Jesus sends out the 72 to evangelise Israel and sees Satan fall, this was a prophetic viewing of the future success of world evangelism.

  4. #19
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes, I believe the casting out is future. A careful reading of Rev 12 shows this, because the child is snatched up (2000 years ago) then Satan accuses. Its only AFTER the saints have been faithful with their testimony and martyrdom that Satan is cast out of heaven, so the period of faithfulness/martyrdom is obviously the church age.

    Rev 12:
    v4 refers to the first fall of Satan, from being one with God to falling out of grace down into the heavenly realms of earth.
    v5 THEN we have the birth and resurrection of Jesus
    v6 The woman (Israel) flees (dispersion- 70AD), then finds a safe place in the wilderness (in Israel), where Israel is to be kept safe for 3.5 years (not yet occurring)
    v7-12 The church overcomes Satan through our testimony who then falls AGAIN, but this time falling down from the heavenly realms, onto the actual earth.

    When Jesus sends out the 72 to evangelise Israel and sees Satan fall, this was a prophetic viewing of the future success of world evangelism.

    Thank you for the well thought out explanation. I agree that verse 5 is speaking of the ascension of Christ, and the Woman refers to Israel. I also believe that there is a reference to the dispersion in verse 5, and that the 1260 days could very well be a period of 3.5 years that is yet future. It sounds like you are pre trib or mid trib premillenial. Is this the case? I myself am a premillenialist, but not sure about the timing of the harpizo in relation to the other eschatological events.

    Possibly the fall of satan to the earth would coincide with the Man of sin's attempt at self-deification. his persecution of those who refuse to worship him, his persecution of the Jews spoken of in Daniel, etc. Would you say these events take place in the 3.5 year period spoken of in Revelation 12:6?
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

  5. #20
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by glad4mercy View Post
    Thank you for the well thought out explanation. I agree that verse 5 is speaking of the ascension of Christ, and the Woman refers to Israel. I also believe that there is a reference to the dispersion in verse 5, and that the 1260 days could very well be a period of 3.5 years that is yet future. It sounds like you are pre trib or mid trib premillenial. Is this the case? I myself am a premillenialist, but not sure about the timing of the harpizo in relation to the other eschatological events.

    Possibly the fall of satan to the earth would coincide with the Man of sin's attempt at self-deification. his persecution of those who refuse to worship him, his persecution of the Jews spoken of in Daniel, etc. Would you say these events take place in the 3.5 year period spoken of in Revelation 12:6?
    I am post-trib premill, but believe in a 3.5 year tribulation, not a 7 year tribulation. Yes I believe the antichrist's appearance and deification is the abomination, and this moment does occur at the same time as the fall of Satan. I also believe the period of "fullness of the gentiles" is complete when all the nations are preached to, which occurs at this same moment.

    After the fullness of the Gentiles, then the hearts of the Jews are opened to the gospel, the partial blindness is lifted. This period is the same period as the 3.5 years of safekeeping of Israel, whilst Christians are persecuted throughout earth (Rev 12). I believe the persecution mentioned in Daniel is of Christians, not Jews, in Daniel 7. This is the same period of 3.5 years of persecution of Christians mentioned in Rev 12 and Rev 13. Thus God allows the Jews the freedom to receive the gospel and safekeeping from Satan, during the period the antichrist is ruling in their midst. This is the same period as the 3.5 years of the two witnesses in Jerusalem, also indicating God's gospel focus on Israel, because there are two witnesses in Jerusalem itself for the last 3.5 years leading up to the two witnesses resurrection (second coming/resurrection).

  6. #21
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    We agree on much, DD. The only thing is I am not sure about the timing of the Harpizo in all this, so I leave that open for now, not choosing one side or the other until I am certain. Thank you for you good, well thought out replies.
    1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

  7. #22
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by glad4mercy View Post
    We agree on much, DD. The only thing is I am not sure about the timing of the Harpizo in all this, so I leave that open for now, not choosing one side or the other until I am certain. Thank you for you good, well thought out replies.
    Shot bru! Appreciated.

  8. #23

    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    1. Who is the man of sin?

    2. What is the mystery of iniquity/lawlessness?

    3. How was it working even in Paul's day?

    4. Who is the one who restrains?

    5. How will He be taken out of the way?

    6. In what way does the removal of the one who restrains usher in the revealing of the Lawless one?
    1. Satan/King of Confusion
    2. False teachings/misrepresentation of truth causing confusion
    3. Through the false teachers
    4. Michael
    5. Stands up/rebukes/casts out
    6. Satan expelled from heaven with angels

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