Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

[John146]

Yes, that's what it says. But I already used examples of exceptions.

Exceptions to what? Isn't it the case that everyone either has their name written in the book of life or they don't? How can there be exceptions to that? Whether or not babies have their names written in the book of life is really beside the point I'm trying to make. The only point I would make about babies as it relates to this discussion is that they must either have their names written in the book of life or not. Scripture is clear that those whose names are written in the book of life will inherit eternal life and those who don't will be cast into the lake of fire. That's the only two possible destinies for all people, including those who die as babies.

Logically, if babies are burned up when Christ returns, this indicates they received the mark of the beast. If they are not burned up, but spared instead, this shows that God has mercy on infants the 2nd time around, but the first time around, meaning the flood, He didn't have mercy.

Physically, he didn't have mercy on those babies when He brought the flood but that doesn't necessarily mean their spirits went to hell when they died.

So is the beast relevant to this discussion? Maybe..maybe not, depending on how one might be looking at it. The point being, maybe those that worship the beast are only apostates from the faith, and that not every single person on the planet is in mind.

Why would it be worded the way it is if not everyone is in mind? It specifically says "all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life". How does "all...whose names are not written in the book of life" turn into some, but not all "whose names are not written in the book of life"?

Another perspective to consider is this.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Maybe those that worship the beast were at first in the book of life, but got blotted out because they followed after the beast instead, indicating apostasy.

There's nothing in the text to indicate that, though. All the text says is that those who worship the beast are those whose names are not written in the book of life. It is more than just those who have fallen away who don't have their names written in the book of life. It's interesting to me how you normally take scripture very literally and at face value, but in the case of Rev 13:8 you don't seem to want to do that.

BTW, just so that no one misunderstands me. All of this is just ponderings on my part. In no way am I claiming this is the way things really are...because I just don't know.

I understand that. I'm responding to your points with that in mind. I'm just trying to give you other angles to look at and give you a bigger picture to look at so that you can then determine whether your ponderings are true or not.

[Old man]

In context, would you conclude that even atheists for example, that they could receive this mark? Or do you think this mark is only relevant to religious folks?

Hi David, I saw your post in another thread about how you sign your name. I had to laugh because although I had figured it out it did take me awhile. I seem to suffer from extended brain burps on occasions.

But regarding the above: this is how I see it.

The context of receiving the mark is based on economics and availability of resources not religion. The mark is specifically introduced in order that you may buy and sell. This is logical seeing the social and environmental conditions in the aftermath of the seals (social) and trumpets (environmental) judgments. The mark is a logical and reasonable solution to those problems which produce a drastic reduction in the world resources (which is also why so many will willingly go for it). Many because of these condition will not see it as "The Mark" but as a way for the human race to survive. Under the guise of making sure everyone gets their “fair share” of the dwindling resources introduction of the mark will help keep cheaters (i.e. believers being provided for by our Heavenly Father) from getting more than anyone else. The mark will be required by everyone not just religious folk.

[Old man]

Isn't the temptation to take the mark what causes many to apostasize? I mean, you can't buy or sell. Your family is starving, and you risk imprisonment, and many will die.

I assume that there will be many who will fall away and receive the mark because of this. But I think more so because of a disillusionment with Christianity and Christ will cause most (at least here in America) to fall away and participate in “The apostasy” mentioned in Thess. which is an event not the actual heart condition of apostasy i.e. falling away. The disillusionment comes because so many have been taught that once they receive Christ then life is supposed to be wonderful and all such errors like that (there are many, many of them) as the hard times increase the disillusionment will too.

The real reason at heart is not sin that draws people away or makes them fall away from Christ. Sin is not the issue since it can and will be forgiven upon repentance. What causes “All” to fall away is priority or preeminence. Where their treasure is their heart will be also. Even in tribulation and persecution the question of being victorious or succumbing to them is founded on what or should I say “Who” is preeminent. In the parable of the sower and the seeds those who fell away (thorns and thistles / scorching sun) fell away because those things they saw going on around them were preeminent and the word given to them was not. A real example of this was Demos, Paul’s traveling companion who “having loved this present world” deserted him after traveling with him for (I assume) many years. Was he able to fool Paul into thinking he was a real believer when he really wasn’t? Remember the argument Paul and Barnabas had over Mark who was a real believer.

It is bc they hold fast and persevere, undergoing suffering, including imprisonment, starvation and death. To avoid those things, many will take the mark who were believers. This is the great apostasy.

And that is the point about preeminence. All the promises of Jesus concerning the love of the Father and the provision He gives as we seek first His kingdom and righteousness are still in effect during the tribulation. Are we to assume that when that period comes that He will rescind those promises? That is the point of the letter to the angel in Philadelphia. God will keep (watch over) those who overcome and keep those things which they have which is their faith that Christ is the Holy One, the True One. They will fall away (apostatize) because their eyes and priorities (preeminence) will be upon surviving physically in this world instead of “not loving their life even to death.” This is preeminence they give up their lives or they give up Christ they decide what or who is most important. Again this goes back to what I mentioned earlier about those among the thorn etc.

By the way, many will apostasize to receive the perceived benefits of following the Beast as well, being fooled that he is the messiah or such.

I agree. Unfortunately I think this is a reflection of incomplete, incorrect or avoidance of teaching in the church concerning this issue.

[divaD]

The mark will be required by everyone not just religious folk.

Hi OLD Man. Man I really feel weird addressing someone as Old man, but hey, that's you're user name. Don't know what else to call you.

But what about folks in remote regions where they don't rely on the world's economics to get by? Maybe like headhunters or someone like that? Plus the Bible indicates the beast is worshiped. So I guess it all depends on who or what the beast represents. One would have to understand 'to worship the beast' from that perspective.

[Old man]

The keywords there, are this..'to worship'. In the examples I used above, it would be unlikely that any of them would worship anyone, let alone this beast. So already, we have exceptions, and from that, one then could discern that not literally everyone on the planet is in mind here, I mean as in every non Christian. So maybe it is just a religious thing, that being my point. Not saying it is, as in matter of factly. Just saying that it's a possibility.

In Daniel chapter 3 where king Neb makes everyone bow down to the image he sets up, it seems to me that it is implied that the whole world was supposed to bow down to the image. The logistics of getting everybody in his kingdom to bow down let alone everyone in the whole earth to bow down makes it rather unlikely that every person actually bowed down. However all the leaders of all the provinces were present at the dedication and did bow down. This seems to indicate that since the leaders bowed to the image by proxy the inhabitant of their provinces did as well. This would be even more applicable where the inhabitants of the nations actual were able to and did vote their leaders into power. Although the event in Daniel 3 is not the event discussed in Rev. the mention of the leaders bowing down representing the “entire world” perhaps sets a precedence of interpretation of how leaders bowing down also by proxy includes everyone else. But receiving the mark which is on an individual basis could be viewed as an acknowledgment of that worship.

[Old man]

Hi OLD Man. Man I really feel weird addressing someone as Old man, but hey, that's you're user name. Don't know what else to call you.

Perhaps naM dlO?

But what about folks in remote regions where they don't rely on the world's economics to get by? Maybe like headhunters or someone like that? Plus the Bible indicates the beast is worshiped. So I guess it all depends on who are what the beast represents. One would have to understand 'to worship the beast' from that perspective.

I'll tell you what I think about this. It may be awhile. It takes me a while to work through what I want to say. Brain burps again I suppose.

[Eyelog]

Agreed, but most (in my opinion) of those who receive the mark most would not be considered apostate (although many who are apostate probably will be receiving the mark) so receiving the mark can not indicate apostasy. It would be more like something that those who are apostate will accept because they are already apostate (because followers of Christ by definition will not receive the mark.)

So I think in the discussion concerning apostasy, receiving the mark is irrelevant. It would be more of a definite proof of apostasy (sort of a confirmation of such).

ldma, I do disagree with this view.

Taking the Mark is the quintessential act of apostasy, worshipping a false god in the face of the opportunity for worldly gain vs. worldly loss.

But you are addressing the question of WHO would be willing to do that, and you seem to be saying that only a person who is already apostate would do so.

You do like to split hairs, don't you?

Well, so do I.

I agree that the condition of the heart is the reason a person would take the mark. But this is true of all we do. The thing is, the presentation of the dilemma of whether to take the mark is just one of innumerable testings a person can undergo, in order to reveal their heart:

Luke 2:34-35
34 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35 so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.”

Deuteronomy 8:2
Remember how the LORD your God led you all the way in the wilderness these forty years, to humble and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands.

Deuteronomy 13:3
you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

1 Chronicles 29:17
I know, my God, that you test the heart and are pleased with integrity. All these things I have given willingly and with honest intent. And now I have seen with joy how willingly your people who are here have given to you.

2 Chronicles 32:31
But when envoys were sent by the rulers of Babylon to ask him about the miraculous sign that had occurred in the land, God left him to test him and to know everything that was in his heart.

Psalm 17:3
Though you probe my heart, though you examine me at night and test me, you will find that I have planned no evil; my mouth has not transgressed.

Psalm 26:2
Test me, LORD, and try me, examine my heart and my mind;

Psalm 139:23
Search me, God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts.

Proverbs 17:3
The crucible for silver and the furnace for gold, but the LORD tests the heart.

Jeremiah 11:20
But you, LORD Almighty, who judge righteously and test the heart and mind, let me see your vengeance on them, for to you I have committed my cause.

1 Thessalonians 2:4
On the contrary, we speak as those approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please people but God, who tests our hearts.

Hebrews 3:8
do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the wilderness,

Now in many, most or even all cases, it seems God reserves judgment of our hearts until they overpour in words and actions:

Matthew 12:33-35³³ “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. ³⁴ You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. ³⁵ The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

Matthew 15:18-20
¹⁸ But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. ¹⁹ For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. ²⁰ These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

Luke 6:44-46⁴⁴ Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. ⁴⁵ The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks. ⁴⁶ “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Jeremiah 17:10
“I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve.”

Hosea 12:2
The LORD has a charge to bring against Judah; he will punish Jacob according to his ways and repay him according to his deeds.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.


Revelation 2:23
I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

So, it is for our deeds that our heart is judged, and it is for that which we will be recompensed or paid back. So, God is highly interested in what we allow in and out of our heart, yes. But He is even more interested in what we do and do not do as a result of the condition of our heart.

Conclusion? We are liable for the condition of our heart to the extent it results in outward sin.

But note that there are acts of the heart which are not as obviously overt to some, such as hating a brother or committing adultery in the heart, etc. This is the point of the sermon on the mount. Thus, you are correct that those who have already apostasized in their hearts are among those who will take the mark. But some may not even realize they are about to apostasize before they do so. Surely, when our hearts are revealed when we are immersed in turmoil, like the contents of a tea bag during immersion in water, often times we are as perplexed as the next guy that we acted as we did. It makes us have to do some 'soul searching', to figure out what is in our heart that we should do such a thing. ...

God bless you brother. I am enjoying the conversation.

[Boo]

Finally, let me say one thing. It is good that we exchange views, for we all learn new things. But concerning the completed work of our Lord Jesus Christ, Jehovah of the universe holds this in VERY high esteem. Before any Christian goes on record saying that once applied to a man, it can be overthrown, he/she should think very long and hard. God applies rebirth to a believer based on what Jesus, His beloved Son, DID. If it can be overthrown, which I don't believe is the case (Eccl 3:14), it can only be overthrown by God, and not the works of a mere man. Just as the blood of Christ, when brought into disrepute, can cause big trouble (1st Cor.11:27-32), so can a despising attitude to His great work bring the wrath of God. Do not take the decision to say that Christ's eternal work can be overturned easily, especially when you have been told that it is an "eternal salvation" (Heb.5:9), and that any work by God is "forever" (Eccl.3:14).

If our rebirth was done by God (in the Person of the Holy Spirit - Jn.3:6), we must all be careful what we say about it.

God Bless

Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to clarify your position. I do appreciate it. It is a perspective that I have seen before.

I see how you speak of three groups. I see only two. You are either a child of God or you are not. If God has a plan that is not spoken of in the New Testament for a third category, I don't see it. The circumcized who reject Jesus fit into one of those two categories.

Are saved people regenerated? Are regenerated people saved? While I know that the Holy Spirit regenerates us - as mentioned before, a lot of this issue depends on what one considers being regenerated to mean - we are told that no man can make us be unregenerated. That is - no third party. We cannot either - but we can give God a reason to.

The question is whether or not He will. I don't see why God would even mention blotting anyone's name from the Lamb's Book of Life if He would never do it. I don't think God makes empty threats.

[Walls]

Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to clarify your position. I do appreciate it. It is a perspective that I have seen before.

I see how you speak of three groups. I see only two. You are either a child of God or you are not. If God has a plan that is not spoken of in the New Testament for a third category, I don't see it. The circumcized who reject Jesus fit into one of those two categories.

You are correct in this when it comes to being either "in Adam" or "in Christ." This is a facet of the New Testament. Everyone is born "in Adam." That is, they have humanity. Then those who believe in Christ experience a New Birth and thus their origin is "in Christ." The old is put away and only the new counts (2nd Cor.5:17). This is one facet. The destiny of men is another.

Are saved people regenerated? Are regenerated people saved? While I know that the Holy Spirit regenerates us - as mentioned before, a lot of this issue depends on what one considers being regenerated to mean - we are told that no man can make us be unregenerated. That is - no third party. We cannot either - but we can give God a reason to.

I personally don't have a problem understanding regeneration and give it only one meaning in scripture. But "salvation" is another. "Salvation" must be defined every time, otherwise, if we lump them all together we can say that Noah's son, Ham, was regenerated. After all, was he not SAVED by the Ark?. Probably God has the power to undo His regeneration of a man, but the basis of regeneration is Christ's work. Not ours. This is why I understand that the Father would not do it. It would undermine that great sacrifice that both He and His Son Jesus made. Also, as I pointed in an earlier posting, one cannot unbirth somebody's son. You can lie about their origin. You can take their name away. You can put them in prison. You can disinherit them and disown them, but in the end he is still physically the son of that parent.

The question is whether or not He will. I don't see why God would even mention blotting anyone's name from the Lamb's Book of Life if He would never do it. I don't think God makes empty threats.

I think someday we should do a thread on the Book of Life. It will suddenly become apparent that there are two types of "life" in the bible. One is to be gained by faith, and the other is to be gained by works. There are distinct sets of scriptures attached to each, and a it would surprise many what would come out, that is, to which set of verses the Book of Life is attached. I don't want to get into it now but consider these;

John 3:15. "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 5:39. "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
John 6:54. "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 10:28. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
John 17:2-3. "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
Acts 13:48. "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
Romans 6:23. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
1 John 5:11. "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."

See also; 1 John 5:13; Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7; 1 John 1:2, 2:25, 3:15, 5:20.

You will notice that all these verses talk about "having life" and are connected to believing.

Now consider;

Matthew 19:16. "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (See Lord’s answer)"
Matthew 25:46. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Mark 10:17. "And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"
Mark 10:30. "But he shall receive (future) an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."
Luke 10:25. "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Luke 18:18. "And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

See also; John 4:36, 12:25; Romans 2:7, 5:21; 1 Timothy 6:12, 19; Jude 21

Notice that these verses all speak of gaining, inheriting or entering "life", and they are all connected with works.

The Book of Life is surely an interesting Book. Which set of verses is it connected to?

[Boo]

You are correct in this when it comes to being either "in Adam" or "in Christ." This is a facet of the New Testament. Everyone is born "in Adam." That is, they have humanity. Then those who believe in Christ experience a New Birth and thus their origin is "in Christ." The old is put away and only the new counts (2nd Cor.5:17). This is one facet. The destiny of men is another.



I personally don't have a problem understanding regeneration and give it only one meaning in scripture. But "salvation" is another. "Salvation" must be defined every time, otherwise, if we lump them all together we can say that Noah's son, Ham, was regenerated. After all, was he not SAVED by the Ark?. Probably God has the power to undo His regeneration of a man, but the basis of regeneration is Christ's work. Not ours. This is why I understand that the Father would not do it. It would undermine that great sacrifice that both He and His Son Jesus made. Also, as I pointed in an earlier posting, one cannot unbirth somebody's son. You can lie about their origin. You can take their name away. You can put them in prison. You can disinherit them and disown them, but in the end he is still physically the son of that parent.



I think someday we should do a thread on the Book of Life. It will suddenly become apparent that there are two types of "life" in the bible. One is to be gained by faith, and the other is to be gained by works. There are distinct sets of scriptures attached to each, and a it would surprise many what would come out, that is, to which set of verses the Book of Life is attached. I don't want to get into it now but consider these;

John 3:15. "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 5:39. "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
John 6:54. "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 10:28. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
John 17:2-3. "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
Acts 13:48. "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
Romans 6:23. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
1 John 5:11. "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."

See also; 1 John 5:13; Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7; 1 John 1:2, 2:25, 3:15, 5:20.

You will notice that all these verses talk about "having life" and are connected to believing.

Now consider;

Matthew 19:16. "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (See Lord’s answer)"
Matthew 25:46. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Mark 10:17. "And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"
Mark 10:30. "But he shall receive (future) an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."
Luke 10:25. "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Luke 18:18. "And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

See also; John 4:36, 12:25; Romans 2:7, 5:21; 1 Timothy 6:12, 19; Jude 21

Notice that these verses all speak of gaining, inheriting or entering "life", and they are all connected with works.

The Book of Life is surely an interesting Book. Which set of verses is it connected to?

I see a whole new can of worms coming open now.

When we get into playing with the word "saved," it is going to really confuse the issue. When Christians speak of being saved, most of us understand it to mean "accepted as a Child of God" in relation to the salvation we are blessed with because of the redeeming work of Jesus. Being saved by the ARK is a whole different ball of wax.

Nobody in the Old Testament was ever "regenerated" into new beings in Jesus. That appears to be a new covenant thing.

I look forward to your post about the two types of life and how we earn them. As for the Book of Life, I see only one book and both sets of verses point to that book. Of course, I also believe that those who are in the Lake of Fire also have eternal life, but they will not enjoy theirs quite so well. Eternal live with the Father is the one I work toward.

Do you think that infants have their names in the book until they sin?

[Walls]

I see a whole new can of worms coming open now.

When we get into playing with the word "saved," it is going to really confuse the issue. When Christians speak of being saved, most of us understand it to mean "accepted as a Child of God" in relation to the salvation we are blessed with because of the redeeming work of Jesus. Being saved by the ARK is a whole different ball of wax.

Nobody in the Old Testament was ever "regenerated" into new beings in Jesus. That appears to be a new covenant thing.

I look forward to your post about the two types of life and how we earn them. As for the Book of Life, I see only one book and both sets of verses point to that book. Of course, I also believe that those who are in the Lake of Fire also have eternal life, but they will not enjoy theirs quite so well. Eternal live with the Father is the one I work toward.

Do you think that infants have their names in the book until they sin?

I also just see worms. It's not that we should shy away from anything in the bible, but the 71st posting of another thread is a bad place to start such a monumental task. Let's leave it for another day.

[Boo]

I also just see worms. It's not that we should shy away from anything in the bible, but the 71st posting of another thread is a bad place to start such a monumental task. Let's leave it for another day.

Well, by all means, have a blessed day, brother.

May God smile on your efforts.

[Eyelog]

I think someday we should do a thread on the Book of Life. It will suddenly become apparent that there are two types of "life" in the bible. One is to be gained by faith, and the other is to be gained by works. There are distinct sets of scriptures attached to each, and a it would surprise many what would come out, that is, to which set of verses the Book of Life is attached.

Walls, you are a genius. I mean that.

You have your finger on the neck of the defn of 'Saving Faith.'

In honor of your insight, I have begun a thread in Bible Chat called "Whose Name Will Be in the Lamb's Book of Life at the Final Judgment?"

Hope you will participate.

[Old man]

But what about folks in remote regions where they don't rely on the world's economics to get by?

Those people in my opinion won’t be bothered by the need for the mark until not getting one will mean you get executed. I think especially for Christian to get by they will have to go to a bartering system amongst themselves. Of coarse they will end up losing houses, vehicles, jobs, bank accounts, retirement funds etc. I think that every type of financial transaction is included in the “can not buy or sell”.

Maybe like headhunters or someone like that?

There are circumstances such as civil wars, regional conflicts, persecutions of ethnics groups that force many groups from their old territories where they could survive without the global economy into refugee camps etc. (this is seen in some parts of Africa today). They are being forced into reliance on the world’s economic system whether they like it or not. They themselves may not participate in buying or selling but they are in a position of reliance on the world to be provided for and they will need the mark to continue being provided for.

We often forget to factor into the scenario that the world will be quite different that it is today. It seems that the assumption is that the global and environmental / ecological conditions will remain the same as they are today. There are so many issues that will be involved during that time that would make it uncertain (at least for me) whether there will be anyone left in remote areas or could survive in those remote regions even if they are native to it.

Plus the Bible indicates the beast is worshiped. So I guess it all depends on who or what the beast represents. One would have to understand 'to worship the beast' from that perspective.

I personally think it will be a who (not one of Horton's though). We know from experience in worshiping our God that worship does take and is expressed in many forms. I don’t picture it as people bowing down as they do in Islam. It could be and IMO will be expressed in a multiple of ways. It seems to me that Paul expected that there will be believers still around to be picked up when Jesus comes back on His way to destroy the beast “those who are alive and remain”. These certainly won’t be worshiping the beast.